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Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

Do you believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved?

  • No, I don't believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

  • Yes, I do believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.


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mattlock73

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Well, this is where we can get into trouble, much as Catholic does by letting the church rule his persausion; Reform teachers can do the same.

There is no where to be found in scipture where God gives anyone "special saving faith", "special grace to believe" or a "regenerated spirit or heart"
The natural man understands not the mind of God, so then how can we have faith except for the regeneration of our spirit? When I speak of a saving faith, I am speaking of the difference between one simply mouthing the words and a true believer.

.. Faith is not a gift except the Pentecostal gift by the Holy Ghost, spoken of by Paul. However, that is another Faith having to with the Faith of Jesus Christ that Paul lived by when in Gal.2;20 he says this: "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith *of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."
Galatians 2:20 (KJV)

That is the regeneration of the old man into the new creation in Christ that Paul speaks of.

"Whosoever will let Him come", says Jesus. When he does in contriteness, Jesus gives him not a regenerated spirit, not grace or faith to believe to be saved, that isn't necessary. What Jesus gives us is a whole new Nature of the Father. To be born again means exactly that. What can be greater than that in this life that we receive what He had within Him that brought Him through trial and test to become the Christ of all Eternity in Human flesh? Are we saved by Grace? Indeed, we are. Jesus Christ is that Grace; the overflowing of the Love of God in Bodily form.
That whole new nature is the regenerate spirit of man. The very same that Paul speaks of in Galatians warring with the (old man) flesh.
 
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mattlock73

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All I can say is that I had the catechism and years of catholic schooling and indocrination and NOT ONCE was I told how to be saved by grace through faith.

I was told to go to mass and recite the rosary (vain repetitions) and go to confession and pray to mary and saint this and that.....

It wasn't until I was given a Bible and led to a true Bible-believing, scripturally sound church and taught the message of salvation that I was freed from bondage of man-made religion.

That's when the Holy Spirit began to speak to me and I understood the meaning of God's plan for salvation.
I have much the same testimony as you do. I thank God that He opened my heart and my eyes.
 
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Lbet123

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There is no question that God by His only begotten Son Jesus Christ holds up their end of the deal! So it is not about losing it from heavens end. Once a person has been baptized into Christ he (or she) has (or should have) only one goal on this earth, to live a life that is pleasing to God. If you never talk to your Father in heaven and continue to live a wordly life in sin never repenting or confessing and maybe go to church once a week or month or whenever; The question would eventually be were you ever saved to begin with? All who have Christ in their life and pursue a relationship with Him know WE DO HAVE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY HERE. it is not just a free pass or get out of jail free card. Yes He paid the price for your salvation BUT in return we owe Him to be Holy as He is Holy. We have limitiations to that Holiness because of our temporary dwellings but we must make the effort to grow closer to Him day after day
 
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TraderJack

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All I can say is that I had the catechism and years of catholic schooling and indocrination and NOT ONCE was I told how to be saved by grace through faith.

I was told to go to mass and recite the rosary (vain repetitions) and go to confession and pray to mary and saint this and that.....

It wasn't until I was given a Bible and led to a true Bible-believing, scripturally sound church and taught the message of salvation that I was freed from bondage of man-made religion.

That's when the Holy Spirit began to speak to me and I understood the meaning of God's plan for salvation.

Amazing isn't it.

Roman Catholics, and EOs too for that matter, when you ask them what is absolutely neccessary for salvation, do not point you to Christ, they point you to their church.
 
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TraderJack

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There is no question that God by His only begotten Son Jesus Christ holds up their end of the deal! So it is not about losing it from heavens end. Once a person has been baptized into Christ he (or she) has (or should have) only one goal on this earth, to live a life that is pleasing to God. If you never talk to your Father in heaven and continue to live a wordly life in sin never repenting or confessing and maybe go to church once a week or month or whenever; The question would eventually be were you ever saved to begin with? All who have Christ in their life and pursue a relationship with Him know WE DO HAVE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY HERE. it is not just a free pass or get out of jail free card. Yes He paid the price for your salvation BUT in return we owe Him to be Holy as He is Holy. We have limitiations to that Holiness because of our temporary dwellings but we must make the effort to grow closer to Him day after day

The issue is not whether true Christians are responsible to live a life that is pleasing to God. That is not the debate.

The issue is, what part does YOUR work play in your salvation? That is the issue.

If you were to die tonight and stand before Christ Jesus at the Pearly Gates, and are asked:

Why should I allow YOU into MY Kingdom?

What would you tell Him?
 
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Rick Otto

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All I can say is that I had the catechism and years of catholic schooling and indocrination and NOT ONCE was I told how to be saved by grace through faith.

I was told to go to mass and recite the rosary (vain repetitions) and go to confession and pray to mary and saint this and that.....

It wasn't until I was given a Bible and led to a true Bible-believing, scripturally sound church and taught the message of salvation that I was freed from bondage of man-made religion.

That's when the Holy Spirit began to speak to me and I understood the meaning of God's plan for salvation.
Same with me, except I ended up being frustrated by Arminians in the Pentecostal/Charismatic camp.

I didn't get the straight truth until I went online in 2000.
If you were to die tonight and stand before Christ Jesus at the Pearly Gates, and are asked:
Why should I allow YOU into MY Kingdom?
What would you tell Him?

Because of good ol' fashioned work! (of Jesus Christ alone, of course.^_^ )
 
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CShephard53

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1. Saul never had a taste of anything.

2. That raises the bar to include those who were in the NT and fell away simply because many did. Paul speaks of them. Many were indwelt with the Holy Ghost, baptised with the Holy Ghost and then took into themselves, human reasoning that the Lord said He "hated".
Verse?
 
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Ben johnson

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SeekingTheTruth said:
As a follow up to the thread which initially asked the question, This is in poll form. But please feel free to presend whatever scriptural evidence you think supports your position.
The simple answer, is "no". Scripture is very clear that salvation can be forfeited (not "lost"), in passages like Heb3:6-14 (with 4:11), James5:19-20, 1Cor9:25-27 (with 2Cor13:5), 2Pet1:5-10 and 2:20-22, 1Tim6:10 & 21, Rom11:21-23, and too many other passages to list here.

But --- it's been impossible to convince some here. First, we must properly define what "OSAS" is. There are three separate and distinct views of "OSAS":
1. Antinomianism
2. Reformed Theology (Calvinism)
3. Eternal security

The first, asserts that "salvation is RELATIONSHIP, but need not embody FELLOWSHIP; thus one can be actively fornicating/stealing/murdering/drunk, but still SAVED.

The second does not call itself "osas", and most are actually offended at the term; but OSAS means simply "the truly saved, cannot become unsaved" --- and therefore Calvinism fits. This asserts that election is GOD'S choice, man is too corrupt/depraved to ever THINK about true saving-belief in Jesus --- so God sovereignly, monergistically (one-sidedly) REGENERATES his heart, and THEN he believes (he cannot resist --- "irresistible grace"). Because faith is GOD'S choice (most believe God's unilateral GIFT), a truly saved person cannot ever come to falling-disbelief. God preserves the person, who then perseveres in the faith that God gifts.

(Scripture says faith comes from men --- Rom10:9-10, and God's position is receiving men's faith, not causing it --- Heb11:6)

The third view accepts that ALL can be saved (differs from Calvinism which says "atonement is LIMITED") --- Jesus atoned for all men's sins, unlimited. Each man is brought to the point where he CAN believe; but once "in", either he's too changed to FALL, or God dynamically interferes to PREVENT apostasy (sometimes even causing the person to die.)

So a particular view must be identified, and addressed --- separately. Each can be overturned; in the text I've written, all three views are fully refuted, then follows a section "OSNAS" --- with supporting Scripture...
DrBubba said:
At the heart of this question Protestants and those holding anything like the Catholic view talk past each other because our focus is not the same. We are closer in agreement than either side would care to admit.
The Catholic view of "forfeitable salvation", is Scriptural. Catholics and I may disagree on particulars of what salvation is (some say "faith+works+sacraments"; but it is grace through faith, an indwelt fellowship of love between Creator and believer). Saving-faith is NOT gifted by God, and we ARE charged with diligence in faith.
Stinker said:
The scriptures do not teach Eternal Insecurity.

The scriptures teach that when a believer is at death's door, they know they are saved. God does not leave us hanging wondering if we're going to pass His judgment. What a horrible way to go out.
Amen. Please read 2Tim1:12-14 --- we have assurance, AND we're both charged (God, and the believer), with "guarding/entrusting".

2Tim2:11-13 speaks of the possible faithlessness of men (in which case they will be denied, will not reign [will perish]), and the unshakable faithfulness of God.
RickOtto said:
You're only 20. You still have time to learn the doctrine of Eternal Security & how the term "OSAS" is a denigration of it.
Hi, Rick. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my definitions. :)

I use "eternal security" as a term separate from "Calvinism", for lack of a better one...
 
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mattlock73

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The simple answer, is "no". Scripture is very clear that salvation can be forfeited (not "lost"), in passages like Heb3:6-14 (with 4:11), James5:19-20, 1Cor9:25-27 (with 2Cor13:5), 2Pet1:5-10 and 2:20-22, 1Tim6:10 & 21, Rom11:21-23, and too many other passages to list here.

But --- it's been impossible to convince some here. First, we must properly define what "OSAS" is. There are three separate and distinct views of "OSAS":
1. Antinomianism
2. Reformed Theology (Calvinism)
3. Eternal security

The first, asserts that "salvation is RELATIONSHIP, but need not embody FELLOWSHIP; thus one can be actively fornicating/stealing/murdering/drunk, but still SAVED.

The second does not call itself "osas", and most are actually offended at the term; but OSAS means simply "the truly saved, cannot become unsaved" --- and therefore Calvinism fits. This asserts that election is GOD'S choice, man is too corrupt/depraved to ever THINK about true saving-belief in Jesus --- so God sovereignly, monergistically (one-sidedly) REGENERATES his heart, and THEN he believes (he cannot resist --- "irresistible grace"). Because faith is GOD'S choice (most believe God's unilateral GIFT), a truly saved person cannot ever come to falling-disbelief. God preserves the person, who then perseveres in the faith that God gifts.

(Scripture says faith comes from men --- Rom10:9-10, and God's position is receiving men's faith, not causing it --- Heb11:6)

The third view accepts that ALL can be saved (differs from Calvinism which says "atonement is LIMITED") --- Jesus atoned for all men's sins, unlimited. Each man is brought to the point where he CAN believe; but once "in", either he's too changed to FALL, or God dynamically interferes to PREVENT apostasy (sometimes even causing the person to die.)

So a particular view must be identified, and addressed --- separately. Each can be overturned; in the text I've written, all three views are fully refuted, then follows a section "OSNAS" --- with supporting Scripture...
The Catholic view of "forfeitable salvation", is Scriptural. Catholics and I may disagree on particulars of what salvation is (some say "faith+works+sacraments"; but it is grace through faith, an indwelt fellowship of love between Creator and believer). Saving-faith is NOT gifted by God, and we ARE charged with diligence in faith.
Amen. Please read 2Tim1:12-14 --- we have assurance, AND we're both charged (God, and the believer), with "guarding/entrusting".

2Tim2:11-13 speaks of the possible faithlessness of men (in which case they will be denied, will not reign [will perish]), and the unshakable faithfulness of God.
Hi, Rick. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my definitions. :)

I use "eternal security" as a term separate from "Calvinism", for lack of a better one...
This is an dramatic oversimplification at best, I won't even venture to guess at worst.
 
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chestertonrules

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Hey Dude! You spammed up Catholic writings not recognized by the Church, of Jesus Christ, that is. How did you honestly think I would respond? I am not interested in subjective writings from anyone. That has been an issue repeatedly addressed by me to you guys, adnausm. But you all don't listen or read and only wish to propagate your religion. Review your posts to see that is true.



v
 
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chestertonrules

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What? You don't give reparation for your sins through penance?

You are not being a good Catholic if you don't.




So, when do you expect to become perfectly righteous in actuallity in this life so God can then agree that you are perfectly righteous and can be finally justified?
I confess to a priest. You don't?

Are your sins forgiven?

What did Jesus say about this?

John 20

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."



We can be totally forgiven. We can accept the grace offered by God. We can follow his commandments. We can be forgiven in the manner he has laid out for us.

We can follow the Church he created on earth.

Why don't you do these things?
 
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Ben johnson

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Matlock said:
This is a dramatic oversimplification at best, I won't even venture to guess at worst.
No it's not. There are three views --- and each can be demonstrated Scripturally unsupportable. I mean no disrespect...
The natural man understands not the mind of God...
You're citing 1Cor2:14 --- perhaps you're not aware of the refutation of your view of that verse. Verse 14 says the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, for they are spiritually discerned; so Calvinists take this to include belief in Jesus. How then, does the natural man gain spiritual understanding? We need only look at verse 12 --- "We have received ...the Spirit of God that we may understand the things freely given"."

So the THINGS of verse 14, that the "natural man" cannot understand, are the SAME things of verse 12 --- which are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit. Black-n-white, we receive the Spirit, and THEN He reveals the spiritual things of verse 14. That means "faith", Matlock.

1. Believe
2. Receive-Spirit
3. Understand the spiritual things of 1Cor2:14

And that verse is removed forever from Calvinistic understanding.
so then how can we have faith except for the regeneration of our spirit?
Men can believe. God's position is receiving man's faith (Heb11:6, Acts10:34-35), not originating it. Happy to discuss Heb12:2 if you wish; but all of Heb12 stands solidly against "unforfeitable salvation", as does the entire letter of Hebrews. (And 2Peter, and James, etcetera.)
When I speak of a saving faith, I am speaking of the difference between one simply mouthing the words and a true believer.
They were "true believers", in the letter to Galatia --- and Paul said "you are severed from Christ and fallen from grace". They were true believers in James5:19-20; and in 2Pet2:28 & 20. They were true believers in Heb6:4, and in Heb3:8-12. A man was a true believer in 2Pet1:9, and in Heb10:29; but in each case they became unbelievers.

I mean you no offense, Matlock; I desire to know Scriptural truth, and I'm convinced you do too. So if either of our positions can be "supported" or "refuted" by Scripture, then the discussion is profitable. If we still do not come to agreement, then I pray we can both mature in Christ, that He may use us more in His great harvest.

:)
 
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chestertonrules

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Hey Dude! You spammed up Catholic writings not recognized by the Church, of Jesus Christ, that is. How did you honestly think I would respond? I am not interested in subjective writings from anyone. That has been an issue repeatedly addressed by me to you guys, adnausm. But you all don't listen or read and only wish to propagate your religion. Review your posts to see that is true.
More irrelevant evasions.

Your bias is obvious. It leads you to ignore scripture that supports positons that oppose your man made dogma.

You requested scripture that supports the doctrine of purgatory.

I provided it. You were annoyed and shocked because you didn't realize there was so much scriptural support.

So, rather than confront the scripture, you attacked the message.

That's reality, and it's documented!

For the record, the concept of purgatory started in Judaism, so saying that it is 2000 years old in the Church is 100% accurate.

If you deny it, you still have to deal with these verses:

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”

So can someone be forgiven in the next life?

Luke 12

47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

So there appear to be degrees of punishment.

1 cor 3

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Could this be a more clear reference?

And many more here:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
 
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chestertonrules

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Not according to that passage in Luke 15:1-17 - which I believe is what you are referencing there. I suggest you read it all and pay particular close attention to verse 16.

That verse is the crux of the argument - if you are not chosen then in all reality you are nothing more than a professing Christian unable to bear fruit that will last.
From the references you cited:

7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.'

So, repentence is the key.

In the parable of the vine, those branches, which had been attached to the vine, did not bear fruit.

They were thrown into the fire.

Had they repented then that would have been a bearing of fruit.

That's my take.

I believe that our salvation is a process, and that we must seek God to guarantee it.
 
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chestertonrules

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All I can say is that I had the catechism and years of catholic schooling and indocrination and NOT ONCE was I told how to be saved by grace through faith.

I was told to go to mass and recite the rosary (vain repetitions) and go to confession and pray to mary and saint this and that.....

It wasn't until I was given a Bible and led to a true Bible-believing, scripturally sound church and taught the message of salvation that I was freed from bondage of man-made religion.

That's when the Holy Spirit began to speak to me and I understood the meaning of God's plan for salvation.
Then you didn't read the catechism.

Here's the portion on justification and grace:


I. JUSTIFICATION
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.
1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
II. GRACE
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51
2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54
2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:
Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58
 
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Ben johnson

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Matlock said:
so then how can we have faith except for the regeneration of our spirit?
Regeneration comes through faith. Titus3:5-6 says that "regeneration is by the Spirit, who was poured on us through Jesus our Savior".

"Poured", is an aspect of the Spirit, when He regenerates. We are regenerated by the POURED Spirit.

...poured-on-us-through-Jesus-our-Savior...

It doesn't say "regenerated us, by the Spirit who IS THEN poured on us through Jesus our Savior-after-we-then-believe". It says, "regenerated, by the Spirit-poured-through-Jesus".

"Poured", is the same Greek word (ekcheo) as in Acts10:43-47; it means "fell-upon/gifted/poured/received" (Holy Spirit), and 11:17 flat states "after belief".

If we can add "sealed" to "gifted/poured/received" (and there's no way not to --- we are sealed the moment we receive the Spirit), then Eph1:13 places "sealed", "after belief.

Belief precedes regeneration; this is the issue that separates our views...
 
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chestertonrules

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please tell me what it is that we can do to gain salvation if you agree that is through Christ alone?
We must follow his commands.

Here are some key points you should consider before dying!!

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- Matthew 19:16-17 "'Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?'...'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'"

-John 16:24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

-John 20: 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
 
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mattlock73

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I confess to a priest. You don't?

Are your sins forgiven?

What did Jesus say about this?

John 20

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."



We can be totally forgiven. We can accept the grace offered by God. We can follow his commandments. We can be forgiven in the manner he has laid out for us.

We can follow the Church he created on earth.

Why don't you do these things?
Better to ask Paul in Romans 7 I would think.
 
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