Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ormly]

Keep up, bub. I responded to post 755.

Then it is your post 757 makes no sense at all; a complete disconnect from rational thought. . . .except perhaps to you.

 

[AndOne]

Keep up, bub. I responded to post 755.

I think he thought I was you or you were me. I guess all us Calvinists look the same bro!

For the record - I am the one ignoring #755...

 

[Ormly]

I think he thought I was you or you were me. I guess all us Calvinists look the same bro!

For the record - I am the one ignoring #755...

I am afraid I have mixed up you two up on more than one or two occasions. Sorry 'bout that. Hope you can sort it all out.

 

[heymikey80]

His central point is self-evident.

Then you shouldn't be talking at all.

You haven’t been answering his “twenty questions” asked without acknowledging answers given. He isn't looking for truth.

No, I've answered yours, I've answered Van's, I've answered ddub85's, I've answered Ben Johnson's. I should conclude what you've concluded, about these people?

The significant difference I see between redemption and salvation and who needs what.

And yet without Scripture.

The parable ended in verse 6. [words do mean something, pay attention]

The point of the parable Jesus explains in v. 7. "I tell you that in the same way," Words do mean something, pay attention.

The passage refers to “those who are”, not “some”.

The passage refers to "one who repents" and "those who are". In fact it's all about comparing them! "One who repents" is some of whom Jesus is referring to. "those who are" is some of whom Jesus is referring to. Words do mean something, pay attention.

What's the inconsistency Jesus is pointing out? "I need no repentance"? Or "God is happier with people who need no repentance"? Jesus' explicit moral to the parable is stated to be the latter. He's ultimately left the former issue unaddressed in this round. People could still be safe in this parable assuming they were righteous. That's left for other lessons to search out.

None of the above.

Jesus is explicit, yet for you, "None of the above". Words do mean something, pay attention.

I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. Lk 15:7
​

He expounded on what the facts are concerning righteous men who need not salvation and one who does.. Pretty simple if you let it say what it sez and not get bogged down in defending religion.

Salvation? He doesn't mention salvation. Pretty simple if you let it say what it sez ... it doesn't say what you want it to say without you defending religion.

 

[Ben johnson]

Well, I highly recomment that you read the book of 1 Corinthians. Paul calls the believers there carnal, and the abuse the partaking of the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 10:16-22.) Even 1 Cor. 5:1 "Ti is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

Hi, Dispy. Do you believe that such a "horrible fornicator, worse than heathen Gentiles, is still saved, and will stroll through the gates of Heaven"?

Paul is writing to believers "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth to them that are sanctified in Chirst Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS...." (1 Cor. 1:2).

I would consider those Corinthian believers saints that still have the old sin nature within them, and still able to walk in the flesh.

Then what's the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" when Jesus returns?

 

[Ben johnson]

Paul in 1 Cor. is writing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," i.e the Gospel of the Grace of God. Peter is writing to believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." There is no connection to the two passages. It is two different Apostles writing to two different peoples that were saved under two different gospels.

Peter didn't hold to Jesus' Gospel?

I have placed my FAITH ALONE (belived) in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation. Therefore, according to Eph. 1:13-14, I am sealed by the holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession.

"Unto", not "until"....

Sasving faith is never alone; as James says, "Faith, it it produces no good works, is dead".

(My salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ.) Isn't that a contradiction of what you believe. What is your take on Eph. 1:12-14?

The seal, conditions on "having-believed"; as Rom11:21-23 says, "It is arrogant to think we cannot fall. They (natural branches) were cut off for unbelief, you stand by faith; behold the kindness and severity of God --- severity to those who fell, kindness to you --- if you CONTINE in His kindness else YOU ALSO will be CUT OFF! And if they do not continue in their unbelief, they will be restored."

Every person is given the free will to either accept the free gift of salvation, or reject it. According to Romans 12:3, every man is given "a measure of faith."

Please read the context --- it is not "every MAN", but "every BELIEVER".

Therefore, all thost that place their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, they are placed into the Body of Christ, and become a member of His flesh and of His bones. Further, I am sealed until the day of my redemption.

"Unto", not "until". Unto is a promise, until a guarantee; the promise conditions on our faith...

Everyone that places their faith in some other means will not be saved. Yes, we make the decision of either accepting or rejection that free gift of salvation.

I agree...

Tell me, do you still give in to the desires of your flesh? Or, do you never commit a sin?

Of course --- read 1Cor10:12-13. What does "fall" mean to you in verse 12?

NO!!!

You hold that every man can be saved --- "unlimited atonement". But you hold that "a truly saved man cannot become unsaved". Isn't this how I described the third view?

Paul in verse 11 says: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren we are debtors, not o the flesh, to live after the flesh,

13 For it ye live after the flesh (reject the gift of salvaltion), ye shall die; but if ye through the Sirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

The Apostle Paul, you and I, still have the old sin nature within us and, like Paul will do things we know we shouldn't do. As Paul says in Romans ;7:18 that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. So, do you think that Paul is unsaved being in his flesh dwelleth no good thing?

The condition, is "if the Spirit of Him abides in you" --- this state, is fallible. As John warns in 1:2:26-28, "ABIDE in Him, SO THAT when He returns you will not shrink in shame." In 2:1:7-9, John writes: "He who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God." See the dynamic?

Abiding in Him (and therefore His abiding in us), is a constant choice.

He doesn't contradict my doctrine, and being you disagree with me, then maybe you should re-examing your position.

There are no contradictions in "Responsible Grace".

Tell me now, What sins didn't Jesus die for?

The ones that exist without repentance.

While Jesus ministered upon the earth, the unbelievers were the ones that didn't believe that He was the long promised Messiah of Israel. Those that believed on Him (changed their view as to who He was) earned eternal life. Repent just means to have a change of mind/turn around/change one's way of life/show remorse for wrong doing.

It also means to ask forgiveness, and to strive (by His power) not to sin again.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-15) and The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) man will be judged "according to their works." Works of the flesh (sin) will be given their just reward, and cast into the fire.

Sinful men will be cast into the fire.

My bad in stating it badly, The workers will be cast into the lake of fire.

Right.

There is nothing I can do to add to my salvation. Jesus Chrst did it all. Anything I do to add to my salvation ie practicing religion. FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ is all that is needed for salvation. We are saved UNTO good works (Eph. 2:10).

Please read James2:19--- not any kind of faith saves us; only the kind that receives Christ, walks in Him, and receives/walks in the Holy Spirit. ONLY the kind that receives regeneration, and seeks His empowerment against sin.

The moment one places their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, the Holy Spirit baptizes that one into the Body of Christ. Further, the Holy Spirit of God will indwell that person from that moment on. One will never have more, or less, of the Holy Spirit then at the moment of salvation.

The Spirit can be grieved, insulted, rejected.

It is something we as believers strive for and will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The more of our works that survive the test of fire, greater will be that "imperishable wreath" (crown of glory).

There is no "greater entrance into Heaven", nor a "lesser entrance into Heaven". The "imperishable wreath", is eternal life.

Look at how Peter words it in 2:1:5-10 --- he lists godly traits (that are not optional); "he who LACKS these qualities is blind/short-sighted/forgotten-former-purification. THEREFORE we are to be diligent (against that bad-example), that we not STUMBLE ("ptaio-become-wretched"), SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE abundantly provided."

It's not "abundant/sparse", it's "abundant" or "not at all".

If you have ever entered, or observed, a foot race, you will notice that there is always someone that will finish last. One will not find that one upon the platform to receive the victors medal/reward, however, that one had still completed by running the race. At the Judgment seat of Christ, all those believers who's works did not pass the test of fire; will lose rewards, but still be saved.

Sinningly-saved? We are not saved, unless we repent --- and walk in repentance by walking in Him...

 

[Ben johnson]

Are you saying that someone broke the seal?

You bet --- one who is "taken captive by worldly deceptions, RATHER THAN CHRIST", is 100% "lost". Seal broken.

A person that is saved can still fall prey to a false doctrine. That is why Paul instructs us to be Bereans, and to study the Word daily to see if those things are true (Acts 17:11).

You are right, he can.


...and if he does, he is no longer saved...

John, in 2 John 1:7-9, is writing to the dispersed Jewish believer as a result of the persecution. The same one that James, Peter, and John agreed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. He is warning them about the Judaizers that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the long promised Messiah. John is not writing to members of the Church, the Body of Christ. I might add that even though John is not writing to members of the Body of Christ, there are many things that John writes that are just as applicable to us.

It's saying the same as 1Tim4:16, and many others.

How are we to decide what parts of Scripture "apply to us", and what parts we can disregard?

Being Israel is "the Bride of Christ," I must assume that you are referring to Israel as the "chosen lady." I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. 2 John is not written to me as a member of the Body of Christ.

I'm referring to the wording in the first of the chapter...

To "rightly divide" the Word, one must take into consideration to whom the author is writing and the purpose of the letter. The letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John, are written to the dispersed Jews. When reading those letters, keep in mind that they are written to Jewish believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to; which they will enter at the 2nd coming of Christ.

If James Peter and John say the same things as Paul, and Jesus, then they are not "dispensation-we-can-ignore-them".

I hope we can come to resolution on the issue of "you can sin, but remain saved".

As Paul said: "Shall I continue in sin, that grace may abound? NEVER! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Rom6:1

We are dead to sin, and alive to Christ; or dead to Christ and alive to sin.

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
His central point is self-evident.

Then you shouldn't be talking at all.

Why? You haven’t understood anything and I am trying to help out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
You haven’t been answering his “twenty questions” asked without acknowledging answers given. He isn't looking for truth.

No, I've answered yours, I've answered Van's, I've answered ddub85's, I've answered Ben Johnson's. I should conclude what you've concluded, about these people?

Your answers don’t compute. I haven’t discussed this with the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
The significant difference I see between redemption and salvation and who needs what.

And yet without Scripture.

Gave you scripture you twisted. You need help in learning how to accept what is written. Argue with Jesus. It’s His word you are denying as truth..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
The parable ended in verse 6. [words do mean something, pay attention]

The point of the parable Jesus explains in v. 7. "I tell you that in the same way," Words do mean something, pay attention.

The parable didn’t need explaining. It was self explaining. He made a correlation. Do you know what one of them is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
The passage refers to “those who are”, not “some”.

The passage refers to "one who repents" and "those who are". In fact it's all about comparing them! "One who repents" is some of whom Jesus is referring to. "those who are" is some of whom Jesus is referring to. Words do mean something, pay attention.

The passage refers to one who was “lost” as in gone astray; a sheep who was His. It was never a question of repenting simply a “sheep” of His that lost its way, probably because it went stupid and followed some Calvinistic shepherd who spoke all the right sounding words. They can do that, ya know.

Those “who are” don’t have to concern themselves with salvation; Heaven is no longer the goal for them; being what the Father intended is their top priority. And they understand what that is. Too bad you don’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heymikey80
What's the inconsistency Jesus is pointing out? "I need no repentance"? Or "God is happier with people who need no repentance"? Jesus' explicit moral to the parable is stated to be the latter. He's ultimately left the former issue unaddressed in this round. People could still be safe in this parable assuming they were righteous. That's left for other lessons to search out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
None of the above.

Jesus is explicit, yet for you, "None of the above". Words do mean something, pay attention.
I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. Lk 15:7

Since my new birth in Christ, I am saint, learning not to sin; learning what the kingdom of God is all about, per Eph 1:1. I can imagine you are still a sinner, saved by grace. Is that correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
He expounded on what the facts are concerning righteous men who need not salvation and one who does.. Pretty simple if you let it say what it sez and not get bogged down in defending religion.

Salvation? He doesn't mention salvation.

But He did in this passage before one of you guys began sidetracking it when running out of answers: “. . . for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance”. Matthew 9:13 (KJV)
You got anything else to contribute?

 

[heymikey80]

But He did in this passage before one of you guys began sidetracking it when running out of answers: “. . . for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance”. Matthew 9:13 (KJV)
You got anything else to contribute?

Rephrased for emphasis: repentance is not salvation. It takes a theology to connect one with the other. You've done no differently.

 

[heymikey80]

Your answers don’t compute. I haven’t discussed this with the others.

Rephrasing: if I followed your logic that 20 questions reveal a lack of search for truth, then I would be forced to conclude the same lack of search for truth lies with you. How should I respond?

I believe your reasoning can't be sound here. I would think more of you if your reasoning were not sound here, and yet you were searching for truth. So I suspect you're wrong, that BB's searching for truth. Because I suspect that you're wrong, that you're searching for truth. And by applying your criterion I'd be forced to consider the conclusion that you're not searching for truth.

I'm sure BB's also searching for truth -- but we're suspicious about the inconsistencies in your position, because we've encountered them before. I wanted to know if you've resolved any of them, because they become larger and larger fractures as I try to live out the truth. Which is why they're being asked.

If you haven't encountered or considered those inconsistencies, then fine. But they've become plenty significant to us.

 

[heymikey80]

Gave you scripture you twisted. You need help in learning how to accept what is written. Argue with Jesus. It’s His word you are denying as truth..

I'm not denying what He's said. I'm denying what you interpreted Him to say -- because you're applying your theology to His words.

The parable didn’t need explaining. It was self explaining. He made a correlation. Do you know what one of them is?

Correlations:
1. The greater happiness of the owner to finding one of his/hers that was lost in comparison to those he/she had not lost, correlates with the reaction of the Father finding one of His that was lost in comparison with those not lost.
2. The greater focus of the owner on the lost correlates with the focus of the Father on the lost.
3. The action of the owner in searching for the lost correlates with the action of the Father in searching for the lost.

The possibility of people being righteous was left unexamined. It's assumed that some are righteous.

It's not assumed that someone "righteous" is thereby perfect or good, any more than someone declared "not guilty" in a court of law is somehow made perfect or good by the determination. "righteous" is assumed -- but later lessons of Jesus show Jesus' view of "righteous" is radically different from that of His audience.

The passage refers to one who was “lost” as in gone astray; a sheep who was His. It was never a question of repenting

Jesus' application aligns the two out loud.

The "found my sheep" correlates with "one who repents" in Jesus' stated application.

Those “who are” don’t have to concern themselves with salvation; Heaven is no longer the goal for them; being what the Father intended is their top priority. And they understand what that is. Too bad you don’t.

This extension turns the corner into allegory. Jesus' only reference to those who weren't lost was deprecating ninety-nine of them in comparison with the one "found my sheep". The point of the parable is "how much more, the lost than those not lost." The point of the parable is not "what should those not lost be doing?"

 

[heymikey80]

None of the above. He expounded on what the facts are concerning righteous men who need not salvation and one who does.. Pretty simple if you let it say what it sez and not get bogged down in defending religion.

Returning to this statement, Jesus did not expound on some facts concerning "righteous men who do not need salvation". Jesus didn't go that far -- that's for a theology to expound righteousness into a need for salvation.

The righteous -- do they need salvation? How these terms interoperate are a theological issue that isn't addressed in Luke 15:3-7

Jesus is talking directly to lostness and foundness. We can connect this with states, but "righteous" and "just" are the same word in Greek. It may mean "declared not-guilty" (as in the case of a courtroom declaring someone vindicated, the same Greek word "just" is used), or it may mean "inherently morally just" (in the case of God, the same Greek word "just" is used). In the former case, the relationship to salvation is again, a theological connection. In the latter case, salvation is indeed unnecessary. But then, God never needed saving. We do.

Jesus doesn't say which He means.

Now I think it's pretty obvious which He means, but that's my theological linkage. With a different systematic theology of salvation others may define the meanings differently and come to different conclusions. I like to stick near New Testament Greek to understand this though.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ben says:

Sinningly-saved? We are not saved, unless we repent --- and walk in repentance by walking in Him...

Only the saved repent , repentance is salvation , or a manifested expression of it..

acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

acts 5:
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. =salvation

2 tim 2:

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; cp with

1 tim 2:

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 cor 7:

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Only a saved person can have Godly sorrow..


so repentance is not a condition to get saved, but its a evidence that you have had salvation given to you by grace...

False religon has corrupted repentance..

 

[Dispy]

Well, I highly recomment that you read the book of 1 Corinthians. Paul calls the believers there carnal, and the abuse the partaking of the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 10:16-22.) Even 1 Cor. 5:1 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

Hi, Dispy. Do you believe that such a "horrible fornicator, worse than heathen Gentiles, is still saved, and will stroll through the gates of Heaven"?

Yes,

Paul is writing to believers "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth to them that are sanctified in Chirst Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS...." (1 Cor. 1:2).

I would consider those Corinthian believers saints that still have the old sin nature within them, and still able to walk in the flesh.

Then what's the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" when Jesus returns?

The "sheep" and "goats" judgment will happen AFTER the Tribulation, and the second coming of Christ. Those Corinthian believers will not be at that judgment. They will have already been raptured to heaven.

 

[Dispy]

Part 1

Paul in 1 Cor. is writing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," i.e the Gospel of the Grace of God. Peter is writing to believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." There is no connection to the two passages. It is two different Apostles writing to two different peoples that were saved under two different gospels.

Peter didn't hold to Jesus' Gospel?

Yes, Peter did hold to Jesus' Gospel. The Gospel that Jesus preached was "the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 4:23). Jesus commanded His disciples to preach "the kingdom at hand" (Matt. 10:7). Did Paul ever preach that gospel??? NO!!! Paul preached "the gospel of the Grace of God" i.e. "...Jesus Christ according according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Romans 16:25).

I have placed my FAITH ALONE (belived)[ in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation. Therefore, according to Eph. 1:13-14, I am sealed by the holy Spirit of promise until the redemption of the purchased possession.

"Unto", not "until"....

I stand corrected. I am sealed "unto" the day of my redemption. Which, by the way will be at the same time as "until." At least you didn't refute it.

(My salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ.) Isn't that a contradiction of what you believe. What is your take on Eph. 1:12-14?

The seal, conditions on "having-believed"; as Rom11:21-23 says, "It is arrogant to think we cannot fall. They (natural branches) were cut off for unbelief, you stand by faith; behold the kindness and severity of God --- severity to those who fell, kindness to you --- if you CONTINE in His kindness else YOU ALSO will be CUT OFF! And if they do not continue in their unbelief, they will be restored."

The context of Romans 11:21-23 is Israel being given temporary slumbering eyes (7-12). The natural branches being spoken of are those of unbelieving Isreal.

I have NEVER said, or implied that we believer cannit fall. Beind we still have the "old sin nature" within us, we still, on occasions, yield to the desires of the flesh.

From the book A Commentary Of ROMANS Based On The Greek New Testament, Volume 2, by Dr. Ernest R. Campbell, founder and president of Canyon View Bible College. (Dr. Campbell writes many words in the Greek language which I will delete. ()will indicate where that word was deleted.

Romans 11:21 "for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you."
In one sense the corporate seed of Abraham, Issac and Jacob constitute Israel, God's chosen people. In another sense God is selecting individuals out of His chosen Israel during this present dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:2), and making them members of the Body of Christ, the Church. While Israel is a corporate group based upon blood lines, the Church is a spiritual organism based upon the Divine election of certain individuals out of Israel and the Gentiles (cf. 4:23-24; 9:6-7; Gal. 3:29).

Now that we have looked at the corporate seed of Abraham according to the flesh, the olive tree with its natural branches, let us consider the statement "for if God did not spare the natural branches." The Greek word translated "spare" () means that God did not remove deserved judgment from most of the natural branches of Abraham. On the other hand, through sovereign election, through making some vessels of mercy, He spared, removed and delivered some from eternal judgment by putting them in Christ who has been judged for them (9:23). God did not spare His own Son in order that He might spare His elect chosen before the creation of the world (8:32; Eph. 1:4).

As Paul looked back and observed that the majority of the Jews, those who were God's chosen people, were not being spared from coming judgment through faith in Jesus Christ, he certainly had no reason to think that God would spare the Gentiles. The time had come in God's dealing with Israel that He left them to themselves in a state of partial hardness. Likewise, he predicts that the time will come when the Gentiles will not be spared from their deserved judgment, a time when the fullness of the Gentiles will be consummated (ν. 25).

22. "Behold then the kindness and severity of God. Upon those who had fallen severity, but upon you God's kindness, if you continue in the kindness, since you also shall be cut off."

In this verse Paul exhorts us to "behold" (), look at, and consider "the kindness and severity of God." The Greek word translated "kindness" () basically speaks of God's giving that which is useful, which involves His kindness, goodness and beneficence. The most useful thing God can do for any man is to bring him into a living relationship with Himself. Paul's emphasis here is on God's kindness as seen in His making certain individuals the recipients of His mercy, faith, and salvation in Christ. He has abundantly poured out His kindness toward us by making us alive together with Christ, raising us up with Christ, and seating us in the heavenlies with Him (9:23; Eph. 2:5-8).

Having observed the kindness of God, Paul also speaks of His "severity" (). This word basically means to cut off or cut from hence, it indicates that God is also severe, sharp and unsparing in His dealings with those who justly deserve judgment. Apart from God's love and mercy, through which He calls out a people unto His Name, all men would experience his severity and wrath against sin (John 3:36; Eph. 5:6).

On the one hand, severity is upon those who have fallen, i.e., upon the Jews who have been cut off, left in their unbelief, and who reject the Person of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, the Gentiles whom Paul is addressing are the recipients of the kindness of God; i.e., they have been individually elected to occupy a place in the Body of Christ. As we look at all men in the light of the truth presented in this chapter, they fall in two categories: those who are obstinate unbelievers under the severity of God, and those who are genuine believers under the kindness of God.

Since Paul never vouches for any person's relation to sod, as to whether it was feigned or real, he adds the statement, "if you continue in the kindness." If Paul saw a believer honestly endeavoring to live in accordance with the Word of God, he assumed that he was one of the elect, enjoying the benefits of the kindness of God (cf. 1 Cor. 15:2; Col. 1:23.) If the person did not "continue" (), remain in, and persevere in that which God provided by His kindness, then he would be considered as a cut off one; i.e., he would be under the severity rather than the kindness of God.

23. "And also those, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

In this verse Paul is referring to the void and without faith, then they will be grafted in again. Superficially looking at this statement it might appear that the Jews themselves are the ones determining their future destiny, i.e., whether or not they will be regrafted into a vital relationship with God. In the light of the entire context, however, God is the one who is sovereignly determining Israel's future destiny (vv. 24-32). The use of the passive voice makes its clear, God is the one who broke them off; likewise, He is the one who will graft them in again.

We must keep in mind that the Jews continuation in unbelief is intertwined with God extending His mercy toward them (9:16, 23). As a part of the sinful Adamic race, left to be themselves, they were in a state of unbelief (Eph. 2:1- 3), which resulted in God removing them from fellowship with Himself. In order for them not to continue in unbelief, not to be what they are in their sinful nature. God has to take the initiative and give them the faith by which they become identified with Himself. When God instills in them faith (10:17; 1 Tim. 1:14), which the Holy Spirit enables them to exercise, that will be the time when they are again grafted into a living relationship with God.

Now let us consider the statement "for God is able to graft them in again." First, this implies that at one time Israel did have a vital relationship with God. Since the Fall of Adam and Eve this relationship has depended upon God-given faith. Abraham had this relationship (4:9). Issac, Jacob, Moses, Joseph and the prophets all displayed this faith either by what they said or did. It is into this living relationship that God is going to restore unbelieving Israel. Second, this verse makes it crystal clear - God is the one who is able to graft them in again. Third, the implication is that partial hardness will rest upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come; therefore we do not anticipate that this grafting will take place until the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom. We can expect the majority of Jews to remain in unbelief during the rest of this Church age.

Every person is given the free will to either accept the free gift of salvation, or reject it. According to Romans 12:3, every man is given "a measure of faith."

Please read the context --- it is not "every MAN", but "every BELIEVER"

My Bible reads "...according as God hath dealt to every man a measure of faith" (Rms. 12:3). What part of "every man" do you not understand.
.

Therefore, all thost that place their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, they are placed into the Body of Christ, and become a member of His flesh and of His bones. Further, I am sealed until the day of my redemption.

"Unto", not "until". Unto is a promise, until a guarantee; the promise conditions on our faith...

There is not doubt in my mind that God wll keep His promise.

Everyone that places their faith in some other means will not be saved. Yes, we make the decision of either accepting or rejection that free gift of salvation.

I agree...

Nice we can agree on something.

But you keep indicating that we must do something else also. A free gift is not a free gift if it can be taken back. A free gift is not conditional.

Tell me, do you still give in to the desires of your flesh? Or, do you never commit a sin?

Of course --- read 1Cor10:12-13. What does "fall" mean to you in verse 12?

Are you now saying that you sometimes lose your salvation?

to be continued

 

[Dispy]

Part 2

You hold that every man can be saved --- "unlimited atonement". But you hold that "a truly saved man cannot become unsaved". Isn't this how I described the third view?

If God/Jesus did not make it possible for every man to be saved, the God is an unjust God. Don't recall exactly what your third view was.

Paul in verse 11 says: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh,

13 For it ye live after the flesh (reject the gift of salvaltion), ye shall die; but if ye through the Sirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

The Apostle Paul, you and I, still have the old sin nature within us and, like Paul, will do things we know we shouldn't do. As Paul says in Romans ;7:18 that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. So, do you think that Paul is unsaved being in his flesh dwelleth no good thing?

The condition, is "if the Spirit of Him abides in you" --- this state, is fallible. As John warns in 1:2:26-28, "ABIDE in Him, SO THAT when He returns you will not shrink in shame." In 2:1:7-9, John writes: "He who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God." See the dynamic?

First of all, You didn't answer my question.

You keep mixing what Paul preached with what John preached. Was John addressing members of the Church, the Body of Christ, who were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the Grace of God", or believers that were saved under the Law and the gospel of the kingdom?

When I placed my FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation, the Holy Spirit took up residence within me. [/b]He will never leave me or forsake me.[/b]

He doesn't contradict my doctrine, and being you disagree with me, then maybe you should re-examing your position.

There are no contradictions in "Responsible Grace".

What do you call "Responsible Grace"? Not familiar with the term.

Tell me now, What sins didn't Jesus die for?

he ones that exist without repentance.

Gee, I'm sure that I have committed many sins for which I never repented of. So, if I understand you correctly, Jesus didn't die for those sins. Does that mean that I am not "washed white as snow? WHAT AM I DO DO?

While Jesus ministered upon the earth, the unbelievers were the ones that didn't believe that He was the long promised Messiah of Israel. Those that believed on Him (changed their view as to who He was) earned eternal life. Repent just means to have a change of mind/turn around/change one's way of life/show remorse for wrong doing.

It also means to ask forgiveness, and to strive (by His power) not to sin again.

Are you able to not sin again? How many time must Christ be crucified to pay the sin debt for newly committed sins.?

At the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-15) and The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) man will be judged "according to their works." Works of the flesh (sin) will be given their just reward, and cast into the fire.

Sinful men will be cast into the fire.

My bad in stating it badly, The workers will be cast into the lake of fire.

Right.

There is nothing I can do to add to my salvation. Jesus Chrst did it all. Anything I do to add to my salvation is practicing religion. FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ is all that is needed for salvation. We are saved UNTO good works (Eph. 2:10).

Please read James2:19--- not any kind of faith saves us; only the kind that receives Christ, walks in Him, and receives/walks in the Holy Spirit. ONLY the kind that receives regeneration, and seeks His empowerment against sin.

PLEASE consider to whom James is writeing to. He is writeing to Jewish believer that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," when the Law was in effect. When the Law was in effect, for a Jew, under the Law, had to perform the deed/works of the Law, by FAITH to have their sins covered. Those deeds/works were the vehicle that demonstrated their FAITH. That is the context in which you should read the book of James.

The moment one places their FAITH ALONE' in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, the Holy Spirit baptizes that one into the Body of Christ. Further, the Holy Spirit of God will indwell that person from that moment on. One will never have more, or less, of the Holy Spirit then at the moment of salvation.

The Spirit can be grieved, insulted, rejected.

Very true, but He will never leave us. If I could lose my salvation, then the Holy Spirit would leave.

Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Looks like eternal security (OSAS) to me.

It is something we as believers strive for and will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The more of our works that survive the test of fire, greater will be that "imperishable wreath" (crown of glory).

There is no "greater entrance into Heaven", nor a "lesser entrance into Heaven". The "imperishable wreath", is eternal life.

Look at how Peter words it in 2:1:5-10 --- he lists godly traits (that are not optional); "he who LACKS these qualities is blind/short-sighted/forgotten-former-purification. THEREFORE we are to be diligent (against that bad-example), that we not STUMBLE ("ptaio-become-wretched"), SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE abundantly provided."

It's not "abundant/sparse", it's "abundant" or "not at all".

Peter is giving good instructions to those believers. I agree that they Godly traits. We should all demonstrate them.

If you have ever entered, or observed, a foot race, you will notice that there is always someone that will finish last. One will not find that one upon the platform to receive the victors medal/reward, however, that one had still completed by running the race. At the Judgment seat of Christ, all those believers who's works did not pass the test of fire; will lose rewards, but still be saved.

Sinningly-saved? We are not saved, unless we repent --- and walk in repentance by walking in Him...

Are we saved by placing our FAITH ALONE in what Christ did for us, or are we saved by us performing some deed/act? Looks to me like you believe that we must somehow earn our salvation.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

romans 3:10 as it is written , there is none righteous, no, not one.

romans 10:3 for they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


love scripture that is God breathed... 2 peter 1:19-21

 

[A Brother In Christ]

romans 3:10 as it is written , there is none righteous, no, not one.

romans 10:3 for they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


love scripture that is God breathed... 2 peter 1:19-21

Using one imagination to interpet scripture is an enemy of the Cross.... gen 6:5

 

[savedbygrace57]

Are we saved by placing our FAITH ALONE in what Christ did for us, or are we saved by us performing some deed/act? Looks to me like you believe that we must somehow earn our salvation

Neither the elect are saved by the death burial and resurrection alone...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben johnson
Sinningly-saved? We are not saved, unless we repent --- and walk in repentance by walking in Him...

Thats not scriptural , a person is saved by the grace of God, grace only gives it does not require..