Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[Ben johnson]

matt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said Lord, How often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? seven times?

matt 18:22 Jesus said unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but until seventy times seven.

how many times will God forgive without asking.... wow

In Lk13:3 (5) Jesus said: "Unless you repent, you will perish."

Is that statement true?

Since according to you, anyone practicing sin is not saved, how many times now have you been saved? How many times have you lost your salvation? How many times have you practiced sin?

There is a vast difference between "sinning" and "practicing sinning".

Practicing, is continual, and absent repentance.

I received Jesus as Lord and Savior in 1980; yet I still did things that are not compatible with "saved". There was a time (especially one incident), when if I had died, I have no doubt I would have perished.

But "anecdotes" do not set policy; policy is set in passages like Rom11:21-23, where we're told it is arrogant to think we can NOT fall. We stand by faith, they fell by unbelief. If they fell (natural branches), we can ALSO be cut off, if we do not CONTINUE in faith. ANd if they do not continue in unbelief, they can be grafted in again.

That's "policy"; clear and concise.

 

[Dispy]

Part 1

Originally Posted by Dispy A believer that "walks in the flesh" is demonstrating his works.

Hi, Dispy. In my understanding, there is no such thing as "a believer who walks in the flesh". By definition, one who believes and receives Jesus, walks in Him; he who does not walk in Christ (but in sins), does not really believe.

Well, I highly recomment that you read the book of 1 Corinthians. Paul calls the believers there carnal, and the abuse the partaking of the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 10:16-22.) Even 1 Cor. 5:1 "Ti is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

Paul is writeing to believers "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth to them that are sanctified in Chirst Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS...." (1 Cor. 1:2).

I would consider those Corinthian believers saints that still have the old sin nature within them, and still able to walk in the flesh.

So, let us consider 1 Cor. 3:8...

The above passage pertains only to believers. Unbelievers will not stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as stated above. All unbelievers' works will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment Seat of Rev. 20:11-15. Those unbelievers will be cast into the fire that reveals their works.

I believe that passage connects to 1Pet1:6-7, where the "fire of trials" refines us (as fire refines gold). "Saved through fire", to me conveys "taught to produce better works".

Paul in 1 Cor. is writeing to members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, saved under the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," i.e the Gospel of the Grace of God. Peter is writeing to believers that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." There is no connection to the two passages. It is two different Apostles writeing to two diffferent peoples that were saved under two different gospels.

You said in another post: "Because salvation is forfeitable." Well, if it is, then I never received salvation (eternal life), but placed on probation until the day I die, or am raptured.

Please consider that as "salvation is by grace through faith", specifically faith that receives Christ and abides in Him (and Him in us), if that faith can become unbelief, then we cease to be saved. Not "probation", not "unsaved". It is as John said in 2:1:7-9, he who goes too far (because of listening to deceivers) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides in the teachings, has the Father and the Son."

As 1Jn5:11-13 says, "He who has the Son, has eternal life; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know you have eternal life."

Because "belief" can be deceived and end, so too can salvation.

..

I have placed my FAITH ALONE (belived) in the Cross work of Christ for my salvation. Therefore, according to Eph. 1:13-14, I am sealed by the holy Spirit of promis until the redemption of the purchased possession. (My salvation was purchased by the blood of Christ.) Isn't that a contradiction of what you believe. What is your take on Eph. 1:12-14?

So, let us consider 1 Cor. 3:8...

The above passage pertains only to believers. Unbelievers will not stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as stated above. All unbelievers' works will be revealed at the Great White Throne Judgment Seat of Rev. 20:11-15. Those unbelievers will be cast into the fire that reveals their works.

Perhaps our disagreement is on the source of our "saving-faith". If it's a unilateral gift from God, then of course it cannot end. But if we DECIDE to believe, we can later decide to disbelieve. This is the message in so many passages; Heb3:6-14 (and 4:11!) foremost, and James1:14-16, 1Tim4:16. Peter does an excellent warning in 2:1:5-10...

Every person is given the free will to either accept the free gift of salvation, or reject it. According to Romans 12:3, every man is given "a measure of faith." Therefore, all thost that place their FAITH in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, they are placed into the Body of Christ, and become a member of His flesh and of His bones. Further, I am sealed until the day of my redemption. Everyone that places their faith in some other means will not be saved. Yes, we make the decision of either accepting or rejection that free gift of salvation.

How are you "receiving what he did?

By faith. My faith. And in Him I dwell, by faith. His power, my belief; His might, my diligence. His righteousness, my conscious submission to Him.

Tell me, do you still give in to the desires of your flesh? Or, do you never commit a sin?

Didn't know we were discussing Calvinism. Hey, I was being taught the Calvinist Hiedelberg Catechism even before I lost all my baby teeth. I came from a very long line of strong Calvinists. My early education was in the Christian Reform "Christian School." Two of my fathers first cousins were professors at Calvin College. One was even honored by having a "house" named after him. The Calvinist doctrine I no longer embrace. Yes, there are a few thing that I can agree with a Calvinist, but for entirely diffferent reasons.

There are three "OSAS" positions; the second is Calvinism.

The third I call "Eternal Security". It asserts that atonement is unlimited (all men CAN believe); but once "in", either a man's heart is too changed to DISbelieve, or God dynamically interferes to prevent apostasy.

Do you hold to this?

NO!!!

But you say that I can lose my salvation if I, on occasions, please the flesh. Paul, in Romans 7:15-25, hase the same mortal problem, and has to fight on a daily basis. Howver I can find comfort in Romans 8:1 which states "There is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...." (who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit) are interpolated into the text, but rightly stated in verse 4.

Please read the context of ch8 --- it's the answer to the problem in ch7. And Paul clearly presents "walking in the Spirit, or walking in the flesh", as possible.

What is the consequence of walking in the flesh? Verse 8:12-14.

Paul in verse 11 says: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren we are debtors, not o the flesh, to live after the flesh,

13 For it ye live after the flesh (reject the gift of salvaltion), ye shall die; but if ye through the Sirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

The Apostle Paul, you and I, still have the old sin nature within us and, like Paul will do things we know we shouldn't do. As Paul says in Romans ;7:18 that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. So, do you thing that Paul is unsaved being in his flesh dwelleth no good theing?

Paul wrote the above and is the same Paul that wrote Ephesians 1:12-14. He is not contradicting himself.

No, he doesn't; but if what Paul says contradicts my doctrine, or your doctrine, then we will do well to re-examine our positions.

To this I can agree.

He doesn't contradict my doctrine, and being you disagree with me, then maybe you should re-examing your position.

Yes, The price Christ paid on the Corss was sufficient and complete. He paid the sin debt for all mankind. Therefore, no one will every stand before God and be judged according to their sins.

I think you're missing the fact that sins are not forgiven, without repentance. As Jesus said in Lk13:3, "Unless you REPENT, you will perish".

Tell me now, What sins didn't Jesus die for?

While Jesus ministered upon the earth, the unbelievers were the ones that didn't believe that He was the long promised Messiah of Israel. Those that believed on Him (changed their view as to who He was) earned eternal life. Repent just means to have a change of mind/turn around/change one's way of life/show remorse for wrong doing.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ (1 Cor. 1:3-15) and The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) man will be judged "according to their works." Works of the flesh (sin) will be given their just reward, and cast into the fire.

The WORKS will be cast into the fire, but the people will NOT?

They will. Rev20:12&15 is clear; he who has sinful works, is also he who is not written in the Book of Life; he is cast into the fire.

My bad in stating it badly, The workers will be cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, salvation is a free gift. It is given to all who will place their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation. There are no strings attached. Therefore, it become the sole posession of the one that accepts the free gift. Salvation is the free gift of God's Grace.

I agree --- and yet, there is far more required of us. It is not "mere belief" that saves us --- as James says, "You believe in one God; you do well. But even demons believe, and shudder." 2:19

No, it is only a certain kind of belief that saves us --- the kind that receives the indwelling Lord and Spirit; the kind that therefore (because of Him-in-us) PRODUCES good works.

There is nothing I can do to add to my salvation. Jesus Chrst did it all. Anything I do to add to my salvation ie practicing religion. FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ is all that is needed for salvation. We are saved UNTO good works (Eph. 2:10).

The moment one places their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation, the Holy Spirit baptizes that one into the Body of Christ. Further, the Holy Spirit of God will indwell that person from that moment on. One will never have more, or less, of the Holy Spirit then at the moment of salvation.

I have considered every thing you posted, and replied to all of it.

I do believe that the "imperishable wreath" is eternal life.

I'm very pleased.

It is something we as believers strive for and will receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The more of our works that survive the test of fire, greater will be that "imperishable wreath" (crown of glory).

Since you accept that "we race for the imperishable wreath", then how could either of us deny that Paul expressed concern about "being disqualified from HIS race"? The term "adokimos", was significant --- they would collect coins, and examine them to see if they were worn; if a coin no longer bore the image that had been impressed upon it, it was "adokimos-disqualified-unapproved". Rejected. Thrown away.

If you have ever entered, or observed, a foot race, you will notice that there is always someone that will finish last. One will not find that one upon the platform to receive the victors medal/reward, however, that one had still completed by running the race. At the Judgment seat of Christ, all those believers who's works did not pass the test of fire; will lose rewards, but still be saved.

to be continued.

 

[Dispy]

Part 2

Col. 2:6-7 are excellent instructions for members of the Church, the Body of Christ. Verse 8 is a warning to those believers to be very careful of friends of satan.

Be careful, why? Explicitly stated, to "not be taken captive by worldly philosophy, rather than according to Christ".

If someone is taken-captive away from Christ, is he still saved?

Are you saying that someone broke the seal? A person that is saved can still fall prey to a false doctrine. That is why Paul instructs us to be Bereans, and to study the Word daily to see if those things are true (Acts 17:11).

John, in 2 John 1:7-9, is writing to the dispersed Jewish believer as a result of the persecution. The same one that James, Peter, and John agreed to stay with in Gal. 2:9. He is warning them about the Judaizers that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the long promised Messiah. John is not writing to members of the Church, the Body of Christ. I might add that even though John is not writing to members of the Body of Christ, there are many things that John writes that are just as applicable to us.

He's writing to the "chosen lady [/b]and her children".[/b] Gotta mean "us"

.
Being Israel is "the Bride of Christ," I must assume that you are referring to Israel as the "chosen lady." I am not a Jew or spiritual Jew. 2 John is not written to me as a member of the Body of Christ.[/QUOTE]

To "rightly divide" the Word, one must take into consideration to whom the author is writing and the purpose of the letter. The letters of James, 1, 2 Peter, and 1, 2, 3 John, are written to the dispersed Jews. When reading those letters, keep in mind that they are written to Jewish believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," and have an earthly kingdom to look forward to; which they will enter at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Under the New Covenant, there is neither "Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female; we are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal3:26 I do not perceive James' or Peter's letters, to align with anything else.

The New Covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31, Heb. 8:8). The Body of Christ is not in that covenant. Those that Peter, James and John are writeing to have an earthly kingdom to look forward to, whereas members of the Body of Christ, that Paul is writeing to in Gal. 3:26, have a heavenly hope/home to look forwrd to.

Members of the Body of Christ have a heavenly hope/home to look forward to, and were saved under "...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" (Rom.16:25), which is what we call/know today as "the gospel of the Grace of God."

The same ideals expressed by Peter, the warnings for "diligence in faith", Paul echoes. The same admonitions written by James, John echoes. I see complete harmony.

BTW, if we do not come to agreement (and no two people will agree on everything), I pray that each of us is driven deeper into Scripture, closer to God, and more matured to be useful in His great harvest.That accomplished, Christ has won through us.

As I have stated previously, there are things written to those in the general epistles by Peter, James, and John, that are as applicable to us in the Body of Christ, as it is to the ones they are addressing.

The instructions in righteous for the children of Israel was given by God to Moses. The instructions in righteousness for members of the Church, the Body of Christ, were given by God to Paul. It appears to me that you are mixing the instructions in righteousness that God gave to Moses for the children of Israel, with the instructions in righteousness that God gave to Paul for members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ. It is my contention that doing that, it only leads to confusion and denominations. It is what I call "a scrambled egg doctrine." Moses preached the Law, Paul preached Grace. Two opposing doctrines.

 

[Ormly]

YEs ... because the Son of God walked with him in physical form!

Jesus Christ was not born yet

That is conjecture. It also has nothing to do with Job not being in need of salvation but only redemption. Please srick to the issue and lets not get side tracked.

Can't you agree he only needed redeeming? BeHe apparently has. He at least has run out of mis-leading questions.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

We're speaking of redemption, not salvation. Job didn't need saving and he knew his redeemer lived.

YEs ... because the Son of God walked with him in physical form!

Jesus Christ was not born yet

That is conjecture. It also has nothing to do with Job not being in need of salvation but only redemption. Please srick to the issue and lets not get side tracked.

Can't you agree he only needed redeeming? BeHe apparently has. He at least has run out of mis-leading questions.

Job was given a promise from God and Job believed that God word would be fulfilled in the future..

 

[Ormly]

Job was given a promise from God and Job believed that God word would be fulfilled in the future..

Your are thinking of Abraham, not Job.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

In Lk13:3 (5) Jesus said: "Unless you repent, you will perish."

unsaved people need to repent of their unbelief.... jn 16:7-11


Of sin because they believe not on me[JC]... jn 16:9

of righteousness, because I go to the Father and see me no more... john 16:10

of judgement because the prince of this world is judged.. jn 16:11

the comforter.. aka H.S. job is this!

Is that statement true?
There is a vast difference between "sinning" and "practicing sinning".

Practicing, is continual, and absent repentance.

I received Jesus as Lord and Savior in 1980; yet I still did things that are not compatible with "saved". There was a time (especially one incident), when if I had died, I have no doubt I would have perished.

But "anecdotes" do not set policy; policy is set in passages like Rom11:21-23, where we're told it is arrogant to think we can NOT fall. We stand by faith, they fell by unbelief. If they fell (natural branches), we can ALSO be cut off, if we do not CONTINUE in faith. ANd if they do not continue in unbelief, they can be grafted in again.

That's "policy"; clear and concise.

Matt 18:21 -22 please answer this

why is a brother still a brother if cased into hell after 2nd time?

 

[AndOne]

Can't you agree he only needed redeeming? BeHe apparently has. He at least has run out of mis-leading questions.

I don't agree.

I'm only trying to understand what it is exactly what you believe - nothing more. No offense - I still don't understand.

This concept of redemption being seperate from salvation is hard to grasp. I don't see it in scripture.

Please do not make erronious assumptions or needless accusations that aren't necessary to the discussion.

 

[Ormly]

I don't agree.

I'm only trying to understand what it is exactly what you believe - nothing more. No offense - I still don't understand.

This concept of redemption being seperate from salvation is hard to grasp. I don't see it in scripture.

Please do not make erronious assumptions or needless accusations that aren't necessary to the discussion.

Then address my answers as to whether they are correct without asking more questions with the hope of tripping me up with one of them, Ok? It was all too obvious however, you asked for scripture, try this:

"I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance."Luke 15:7 (HCSB)

Disagree with Jesus..

 

[AndOne]

"I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance."Luke 15:7 (HCSB)

Disagree with Jesus..

I believe Jesus was responding to the pharisees who grumbled in verse 1. Are you saying that the pharisees who grumbled were righteous?

The point of the parable (which starts at vs 2) is to show the need for us to repent - not to show that their is a seperation between redemption and salvation.

 

[Ormly]

I believe Jesus was responding to the pharisees who grumbled in verse 1. Are you saying that the pharisees who grumbled were righteous?

Jesus would never be alluding to them as being righteous. So again, stop trying to get me to say what I am not. Let the passage speak for itself.

The point of the parable (which starts at vs 2) is to show the need for us to repent - not to show that their is a seperation between redemption and salvation.

What makes you think it is a parable? Who is us? Certainly if you are unjust, you need to repent. Apparently you must think you are.

 

[AndOne]

Jesus would never be alluding to them as being righteous. So again, stop trying to get me to say what I am not. Let the passage speak for itself.

I am just disagreeing with you - I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am also trying to look at verse 7 in context to the whole passage - not just the verse alone away from the others. The passage is not just verse 7 - it starts at verse 1.

What makes you think it is a parable? Who is us? Certainly if you are unjust, you need to repent.

I was referring to the entire text - not just verse 7. Jesus was referring to those who THINK they are righteous - like the pharisees.

Apparently you must think you are.

This is just a totally unnecessary comment meant to bait me into another needless and useless bantering session. It just isn't productive or necessary to the conversation - please refrain from these comments. I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[heymikey80]

Jesus would never be alluding to them as being righteous.

Agreed, no reason to assume He did so here. But is that His central point?

So again, stop trying to get me to say what I am not.

I remember Behe's comment about erroneous accusations. This is one.

Let the passage speak for itself.

BB / ABIC have let the passage speak for itself. Now we're discussing why you think something is significant to your view about this passage.

What makes you think it is a parable? Who is us?

"So he told them this parable" ... Lk 15:3

Certainly if you are unjust, you need to repent. Apparently you must think you are.

The passage refers to some who are righteous. Certainly they have no need to repent: an interesting assertion of Jesus' on its own. Though not something I'd assert for His hearers, I suspect their own righteousness is a presumption on the part of many of His hearers.

Jesus' point in teaching is constantly to use the assumption of His students, state an acceptable attribute of the Kingdom in a parable, turn the assumptions of His students into an inconsistency, and then require change.

What's the inconsistency Jesus is pointing out? "I need no repentance"? Or "God is happier with people who need no repentance"? Jesus' explicit moral to the parable is stated to be the latter. He's ultimately left the former issue unaddressed in this round. People could still be safe in this parable assuming they were righteous. That's left for other lessons to search out.

 

[AndOne]

In this redemption is not salvation argument - which is absolutely necessary for eternal life? How do you get to it?

 

[Ormly]

I am just disagreeing with you - I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am also trying to look at verse 7 in context to the whole passage - not just the verse alone away from the others. The passage is not just verse 7 - it starts at verse 1.

I was referring to the entire text - not just verse 7. Jesus was referring to those who THINK they are righteous - like the pharisees.

Jesus wasn't referring to anyone who thought they were anything. This again, is what He said: "I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance" Luke 15:7 (HCSB)

Pretty plain and should not be mis-construed just because it doesn't line up with your, "none are righteous, no not one," indoctrination which you now find yourself defensless.

This is just a totally unnecessary comment meant to bait me into another needless and useless bantering session. It just isn't productive or necessary to the conversation - please refrain from these comments. I would greatly appreciate it.

<staff edit>

 

[AndOne]

I'm ignoring post #755. Take a look t #754 - what do you think?

 

[heymikey80]

Jesus wasn't referring to anyone who thought they were anything.

His audience includes Pharisees:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." So he told them this parable Lk 15:2-3
​

Pretty plain and should not be mis-construed just because it doesn't line up with your, "none are righteous, no not one," indoctrination which you now find yourself defensless.

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Lk 18:9
​

Quit whining and address what is being stated by Jesus without attempting to put a spin on it. I am not your enemy, you are.

Pot calls kettle black. "stop trying to get me to say what I am not." Quit whining and address what is being stated by Jesus without attempting to put a spin on it. I am not your enemy, you are.

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Jesus would never be alluding to them as being righteous.

Agreed, no reason to assume He did so here. But is that His central point?

His central point is self-evident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
So again, stop trying to get me to say what I am not.

I remember Behe's comment about erroneous accusations. This is one.

You haven&#8217;t been answering his &#8220;twenty questions&#8221; asked without acknowledging answers given. He isn't looking for truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Let the passage speak for itself.

BB / ABIC have let the passage speak for itself. Now we're discussing why you think something is significant to your view about this passage.

The significant difference I see between redemption and salvation and who needs what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
What makes you think it is a parable? Who is us?

"So he told them this parable" ... Lk 15:3

The parable ended in verse 6. [words do mean something, pay attention]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Certainly if you are unjust, you need to repent. Apparently you must think you are.

The passage refers to some who are righteous. Certainly they have no need to repent: an interesting assertion of Jesus' on its own. Though not something I'd assert for His hearers, I suspect their own righteousness is a presumption on the part of many of His hearers.

The passage refers to &#8220;those who are&#8221;, not &#8220;some&#8221;.

Jesus' point in teaching is constantly to use the assumption of His students, state an acceptable attribute of the Kingdom in a parable, turn the assumptions of His students into an inconsistency, and then require change.

Wonderful!

What's the inconsistency Jesus is pointing out? "I need no repentance"? Or "God is happier with people who need no repentance"? Jesus' explicit moral to the parable is stated to be the latter. He's ultimately left the former issue undisturbed in this round.

None of the above. He expounded on what the facts are concerning righteous men who need not salvation and one who does.. Pretty simple if you let it say what it sez and not get bogged down in defending religion.
[/quote]

 

[Ormly]

His audience includes Pharisees:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." So he told them this parable Lk 15:2-3​

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Lk 18:9​

Pot calls kettle black. "stop trying to get me to say what I am not." Quit whining and address what is being stated by Jesus without attempting to put a spin on it. I am not your enemy, you are.

You shouldn't have ignored post 755

 

[heymikey80]

You shouldn't have ignored post 755

Keep up, bub. I responded to post 755.