Please explain if no one is predestined

[Hammster]

I gave you an explanation from Scripture that doesn't fit your false dichotomy.

Paul wrote to the believers in his Epistles. Meaning that, when he speaks TO THEM about being in "the flesh", or being in "the spirit", he isn't referring to being saved, or unsaved, he's referring to either being in submission to the Spirit, (therefore being in "the spirit"), or NOT being in submission to the Spirit, (therefore being led by the desires of the flesh ... being in "the flesh").

Any time a believer fails to submit to the HS, that believer is in the flesh, and does NOT please God.

It is more pleasing to God for a lost person to submit to the calling of the gospel, through the preaching of the Word in the power of the HS, than for a believer to turn his back on God, not yield to the HS, and thereby walk in the flesh.

So, the person who yields to the HS when the gospel is preached, is by definition in "the Spirit", for he has yielded to the HS, which is pleasing to God.

Well, the gymnastics you go through to support your false dichotomy is impressive.

I’ll stick to the prima facia reading of scripture.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Well, the gymnastics you go through to support your false dichotomy is impressive.

I’ll stick to the prima facia reading of scripture.

I'm assuming then that you believe man is a dichotomous being, but that is not what Scripture teaches ... would you care to take a small test from Scripture to see that man is not a dichotomous being, or would you prefer to set Scriptural truth aside to fit what you have obviously been taught?

 

[Rescued One]

I'm sorry --- I lost track of this when my internet was down for a couple of weeks. I'll have to so some reading.

 

[Rescued One]

It seems as though there is contention concerning these verses:

6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John

What Calvinism teaches concerning these verses is that ...
1) In order for a man to come to Christ, the Father must FIRST draw him. (verse 44)
2) When the Father draws a man, that man will then be given to Christ. (verse 37)
Conclusion that is assumed:
The Father only draws the "elect", which He gives to Christ.

Is this in agreement wwit Scripture? No.

A) It is automatically assumed as a presupposition that only the "elect" are "draw[n]" by the Father; but this text does not say that.
B) We do have a Scripture that does say exactly who the Father will "draw" ...

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John

To what was Jesus referring to, when speaking of being "lifted up"?

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Now let's put these teachings of Jesus together ...

Jesus tells Nicodemus that as the serpent was lifted up He must be lifted up.

How was the serpent "lifted up"; and for what purpose was it lifted up?

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers

The purpose of the serpent was to bring the people to a place of repentance concerning their sin. They, by faith in God, looked upon the serpent in order to live.

Jesus told Nicodemus that He, in like manner would be lifted up so that all that looked upon Him in faith might live.

In John 12, Jesus clearly stated that if I be lifted up (like Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness) from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Jesus clearly stated that "all men" would be drawn.

Hence when we read "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"; we see that man doesn't make the initial move toward God by his power, or will; rather, the first move that draws man to God is made by God.

1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John

The question then is, does man respond to this being "drawn", or does he reject it?

If man rejects the offer made by God, he dies, (just like in the wilderness with the brazen serpent); if he accepts that invitation by God, God then gives him to His Son.

Now we see ...

1) God initially invites, and draws man.
2) Man responds to the invitation.
3) God continues to guide man to the Son.

All of the Scriptures are in harmony.

For those who believe our response to be the determining factor who or what caused some to reject Christ?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Some do. They're called Arminians. Oh, and Pharisees.

But I don't.

Good grief.

Can anyone have faith and still be in the flesh?

OK, now you've changed the question.

Can a believer live for themself?
Can a believer depend on their own strengths and talents?

Paul commanded his audience of believers in Ephesus to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, in Eph 4:30. We know that believers have exercised saving faith in Christ.

Are such believers, who are grieving the Spirit, in the flesh, or in the Spirit?

 

[Hammster]

Some do. They're called Arminians. Oh, and Pharisees.

But I don't.

OK, now you've changed the question.

Can a believer live for themself?
Can a believer depend on their own strengths and talents?

Paul commanded his audience of believers in Ephesus to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, in Eph 4:30. We know that believers have exercised saving faith in Christ.

Are such believers, who are grieving the Spirit, in the flesh, or in the Spirit?

I don’t see how that’s an answer. I can clarify the question if that will help.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t see how that’s an answer. I can clarify the question if that will help.

How does any of this relate to my response to your new question?

This was my response:
OK, now you've changed the question.

Can a believer live for themself?
Can a believer depend on their own strengths and talents?

Paul commanded his audience of believers in Ephesus to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, in Eph 4:30. We know that believers have exercised saving faith in Christ.

Are such believers, who are grieving the Spirit, in the flesh, or in the spirit?

Since you didn't answer any of the questions, why do you continue asking irreleant questions?

Dr Jack gave you a very good explanation of dichotomy vs trichotomy.

However, my response to your question involves what believers can DO; grieve the Spirit.

So, until you address that question of whether a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is in the flesh or in the spirit, there is no reason to continue.

If one wants a real discussion, then one must really engage.

If you don't understand my question, feel free to ask for clarification.

 

[Hammster]

How does any of this relate to my response to your new question?

This was my response:
OK, now you've changed the question.

Can a believer live for themself?
Can a believer depend on their own strengths and talents?

Paul commanded his audience of believers in Ephesus to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, in Eph 4:30. We know that believers have exercised saving faith in Christ.

Are such believers, who are grieving the Spirit, in the flesh, or in the spirit?

Since you didn't answer any of the questions, why do you continue asking irreleant questions?

Dr Jack gave you a very good explanation of dichotomy vs trichotomy.

However, my response to your question involves what believers can DO; grieve the Spirit.

So, until you address that question of whether a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is in the flesh or in the spirit, there is no reason to continue.

If one wants a real discussion, then one must really engage.

If you don't understand my question, feel free to ask for clarification.

I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Where does faith come from? Some people have it and some don't.

A gift from the Holy Spirit.
M-Bob

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is how I ended my last post to you:
"However, my response to your question involves what believers can DO; grieve the Spirit.

So, until you address that question of whether a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is in the flesh or in the spirit, there is no reason to continue.

If one wants a real discussion, then one must really engage.

If you don't understand my question, feel free to ask for clarification."

I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.

So, rather, it seems you're not interested in a real discussion.

But my response did answer your question. Apparently it wasn't understood. And it's real clear that you don't want clarification.

 

[Hammster]

This is how I ended my last post to you:
"However, my response to your question involves what believers can DO; grieve the Spirit.

So, until you address that question of whether a believer who grieves the Holy Spirit is in the flesh or in the spirit, there is no reason to continue.

If one wants a real discussion, then one must really engage.

If you don't understand my question, feel free to ask for clarification."

So, rather, it seems you're not interested in a real discussion.

But my response did answer your question. Apparently it wasn't understood. And it's real clear that you don't want clarification.

Okay.

 

[Hammster]

A gift from the Holy Spirit.
M-Bob

Amen.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

It appears that Paul was doing nothing good when he got knocked off his donkey and received the Holy Spirit.

None is good not one.

Nicodemus asked what one must do to be born again? Jesus explained it was like the wind Nicodemus you have no control over the wind.

Should cause one to be not puffed up in any kind of way but, to be humble.

M-Bob

 

[Dr. Jack]

I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.

1) Since you refuse to engage allow me the liberty to do what I would do in the classroom, (role play).
2) Is the teacher, I will assign you to be the Calvinist, who subscribes to the dichotomous view. (Remember, I'm just doing role play.)
3) The Calvinist must rest upon the dichotomous being of man for some serious reasons.
3.1) Man can only be body and soul for TULIP to work.
3.2) Since the soul of man is dead, man is left only with a body, with no connection to the spiritual realm.
3.3) The lost man is completely dependent upon God to revive his soul, because he has no access to the spiritual realm.
3.4) God must regenerate the lost soul to have access to the spiritual realm.

3.5) God then draws the lost soul to Himself for the purpose of saving him.
3.6) The gospel is preached, and the man believes, bringing him salvation.

Do you agree with point 3, and its subpoints?

 

[Rescued One]

A gift from the Holy Spirit.
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

This is a quote from the OT, from 2 passages:

Psa 14:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Psa 53:1-3
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

Exactly.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I don’t think you understood my question. But since you don’t want clarification, I’ll move on.

Now I would like to present a question for you, or any other Calvinist. But, I must preface the question:

Calvinism teaches that God must "regenerate" the soul of man prior to 1) hearing the gospel; or 2) being saved.

Now read this carefully ...

Prior to Adam sinning in the Garden of Eden, Adam had a living body, and a living soul (according to Calvinism).
Illustrative example: Adam ...
Body = alive
Soul = alive

When Adam sinned, his soul died.
Adam ...
Body = alive
soul = dead

The object of "salvation" is to get the 'soul' alive again ... "Born of the Spirit".

Which would be represented as ...
Adam (Saved) ...
Body =alive
Soul = alive

Now according to Calvinism, God first 'regenerates' the soul, then the soul is saved, only after hearing the gospel.

So let's examine the logical order ...
Adam (prior to the fall)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Adam (after the fall)
Body = alive
Soul = dead

Adam (after regeneration)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Adam (during preaching of the gospel)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Adam (after salvation)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Please take notice, the soul of Adam was alive from the time of "regeneration". So here is my question ...

What is the difference of the condition of the soul of any person that is "regenerated" vs the soul of that same person after being saved?


I will clarify further ...

When the soul is dead, the person is then "LOST";
When the soul is alive, the person is then "SAVED"

According to Calvinism, there is no definitive difference between the regenerated soul, and the saved soul.

If you believe this assertion to be false; please define the difference between the regenerated soul, and the saved soul.

 

[Rescued One]

Now I would like to present a question for you, or any other Calvinist. But, I must preface the question:

Calvinism teaches that God must "regenerate" the soul of man prior to 1) hearing the gospel; or 2) being saved.

Now read this carefully ...

Prior to Adam sinning in the Garden of Eden, Adam had a living body, and a living soul (according to Calvinism).
Illustrative example: Adam ...
Body = alive
Soul = alive

When Adam sinned, his soul died.
Adam ...
Body = alive
soul = dead

The object of "salvation" is to get the 'soul' alive again ... "Born of the Spirit".

Which would be represented as ...
Adam (Saved) ...
Body =alive
Soul = alive

Now according to Calvinism, God first 'regenerates' the soul, then the soul is saved, only after hearing the gospel.

So let's examine the logical order ...
Adam (prior to the fall)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Adam (after the fall)
Body = alive
Soul = dead

Adam (after regeneration)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Adam (during preaching of the gospel)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Adam (after salvation)
Body = alive
Soul = alive

Please take notice, the soul of Adam was alive from the time of "regeneration". So here is my question ...

What is the difference of the condition of the soul of any person that is "regenerated" vs the soul of that same person after being saved?


I will clarify further ...

When the soul is dead, the person is then "LOST";
When the soul is alive, the person is then "SAVED"

According to Calvinism, there is no definitive difference between the regenerated soul, and the saved soul.

If you believe this assertion to be false; please define the difference between the regenerated soul, and the saved soul.

Why do you think there is a difference? Many people hear the gospel with their physical ears, but don't understand it at all. Without the Spirit we don't belong to Christ, nor do we understand spiritual things.