Please explain if no one is predestined

[FreeGrace2]

It’s your contention that Paul is addressing believers in Romans 8, and that when in the flesh, they cannot please God. And there’s truth in that.

Yes, thanks for the affirmation of this truth.

But if a believer who is in the flesh cannot please God, then it’s more so that an unbeliever cannot please Him.

I never suggested that an unbeliever can please God. What I did show was that the moment a person responds to the gospel in faith towards Christ, they please God.

He does make us alive as Ephesians 2:5 says.

The verse says more than that. It equates "being made alive" with being saved.

The context is that we are dead and He makes us alive. That’s regeneration.

Which Paul equated with being saved in v.5.

Regeneration is part of salvation. It’s not all of it, though. We are born again, and then we believe.

Paul teaches otherwise; that regeneration and salvation follow faith in Christ, as I showed from Eph 2:5 and 8.

Justification comes by belief.

Since being made alive and being saved were equated in v.5, and v.8 says we are saved through faith, it's obvious that being made alive is through faith, just as being saved is through faith.

This just makes it more clear that those in the flesh (whether unbelievers or believers not walking as they should) can please God.

You mean "cannot" please God. Right.

But you missed my point, that being made alive and being saved are synonymous and both are through faith.

Is there any verse that very plainly states that regeneration precedes faith?

Or that regeneration is necessary for faith?

These seem to be Calvinist talking points.

 

[Hammster]

I never suggested that an unbeliever can please God. What I did show was that the moment a person responds to the gospel in faith towards Christ, they please God.

They are no longer unbelievers at that point. So the question boils down to whether they are in the Spirit or in the flesh when they believe.

We know that they cannot be in the flesh, because those in the flesh cannot please God.

What does that leave us? The only option is in the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Could you please answer my simple question?

I did.

And I will again.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me

What comes first. The coming to Christ or the giving to Christ.

In v.37 and 44 the statement indicates those who come to Christ were given by the Father, but there is nothing to determine actual order. Maybe in the English, but what about the Greek?

However, v.45 STILL shows WHO will come to Christ; those who listened and learned from what the Father teaches.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

The blue words come from these verses, according to my Study Bible:
Isa 54:13 - All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace.
Jer 31:33,34
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

v.33 is a nearly parallel statement from Paul in Rom 2:14,15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

So, even though the OT verses refer to Israel, it's clear that God has written His law on the hearts of Gentiles as well.

So we can understand that the phrase in Jn 6:45, "and they shall all be taught by God" refers to the whole human race. Also recall that Rom 1:19,20 would be included in what God has taught the human race.

So, when v.45 is properly understood in context, we know that from what God has taught humanity (made clear or plain), those who listened and learned (certainly not everyone does) will "come to Me", according to Jesus.

So, for the pertinent question, given v.45, which comes first:

God has taught the whole human race
those who listened and learned come to Jesus

 

[FreeGrace2]

They are no longer unbelievers at that point. So the question boils down to whether they are in the Spirit or in the flesh when they believe.

I think Eph 2:5 and 8 are quite clear enough. Those 2 verses already boiled it down.

We know that they cannot be in the flesh, because those in the flesh cannot please God.

What does that leave us? The only option is in the Spirit.

Well, not so fast.

To be "in the Spirit" means to be indwell with the Spirit. What verse tells us when the Spirit indwells a person?

I'll share what I know from Scripture.

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

These passages very clearly demonstrate that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit FOLLOWS faith in Christ. It's the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that accompanies salvation.

So I would disagree with your assessment.

But if there are any verses that clearly indicate or say that an unbeliever can be or has been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, please share.

 

[Hammster]

I think Eph 2:5 and 8 are quite clear enough. Those 2 verses already boiled it down.


Well, not so fast.

To be "in the Spirit" means to be indwell with the Spirit. What verse tells us when the Spirit indwells a person?

I'll share what I know from Scripture.

Acts 10-
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Acts 11-
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.
16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Gal 3-
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

These passages very clearly demonstrate that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit FOLLOWS faith in Christ. It's the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that accompanies salvation.

So I would disagree with your assessment.

But if there are any verses that clearly indicate or say that an unbeliever can be or has been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, please share.

Is having faith in Christ pleasing to God?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is having faith in Christ pleasing to God?

Of course it is!

Will you admit that Eph 2:5 equates "being made alive" with "being saved"?

Or, do you understand the verse differently?

 

[Hammster]

Of course it is!

Can you have faith in the flesh?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

It’s your contention that Paul is addressing believers in Romans 8, and that when in the flesh, they cannot please God. And there’s truth in that. But if a believer who is in the flesh cannot please God, then it’s more so that an unbeliever cannot please Him.

He does make us alive as Ephesians 2:5 says. The context is that we are dead and He makes us alive. That’s regeneration. Regeneration is part of salvation. It’s not all of it, though. We are born again, and then we believe. Justification comes by belief.

This just makes it more clear that those in the flesh (whether unbelievers or believers not walking as they should) can please God.

Winner assuming you forgot the "not" on "can" in the last sentence. I've had to go back and edit so many posts making the same mistake assuming it is based on the context and reading your other posts.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Can you have faith in the flesh?

These are the sort of questions which fifteen plus years ago really caused the thinking gears to turn on the whole notion of synergistic regeneration...

 

[sungaunga]

In v.37 and 44 the statement indicates those who come to Christ were given by the Father, but there is nothing to determine actual order. Maybe in the English, but what about the Greek?

I knew you’d say that. Because one has to deny the straightforward presentation of the ordering given to deny sovereign election. The order is as clear as it can be. It’s the giving that results in the coming. The Greek literally says, No one is able to come to Me if not the Father the (one) having sent Me draws him and I will raise him in the last day. I can stop the discussion here but I will go on.

However, v.45 STILL shows WHO will come to Christ; those who listened and learned from what the Father teaches.

Your interpretation does not connect the two verses, 6:44 and 6:45 the way the author intended. In fact, the text makes no break between the two verses. The repetition of the phrase "come to Me and comes to Me" connects these two verses and continues the theme begun in 6:37 The one who comes to Christ is the one drawn by the Father. In 6:45 the one who comes to Christ is the one who has "heard and learned from the Father." Hearing and learning are descriptive of the action of drawing.

Not only that, you have another problem. Because, "unless the father who sent Me draws Him," is not the end of the passage. It goes on to say, I will raise him in the last day. And there his no reason, contextually, theologically, grammatically to believe that the first him, is different than the second him. In other words, all who are drawn are to be raised in the last day by Jesus.

You are simply refusing to start at the beginning and follow Jesus through His teachings.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[Hammster]

Winner assuming you forgot the "not" on "can" in the last sentence. I've had to go back and edit so many posts making the same mistake assuming it is based on the context and reading your other posts.

Yeah. My editing leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can you have faith in the flesh?

Some do. They're called Arminians. Oh, and Pharisees.

But I don't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I knew you’d say that.

Wow, I've never met anyone who is omniscient.

Because one has to deny the straightforward presentation of the ordering given to deny sovereign election.

Huh? Where did I deny "sovereign election"? When God elects, it is surely sovereign.

What I absolutely do deny is the Calvinist claim that God elects to salvation.

He sovereignly elects to service, as my post #180 clearly shows.

The order is as clear as it can be. It’s the giving that results in the coming.

That's clearly NOT what v.45 says. It's those who listened and learned from what the Father taught that 'come to me'. Please note the order here. Note that God has taught everyone. But ONLY those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.

So, it's ONLY those who have listened and learned from the Father who are given to Jesus. Rather simple.

The Greek literally says, No one is able to come to Me if not the Father the (one) having sent Me draws him and I will raise him in the last day. I can stop the discussion here but I will go on.

No need to "go on". The point is that BECAUSE the Father has taught everyone, those who listened and learned will come to the Son.

iow, IF the Father hadn't taught everyone, then no one could come to the Father.

Your interpretation does not connect the two verses, 6:44 and 6:45 the way the author intended.

Clairvoyance? How do you know the author's intention? Not even Greek scholars who work on translations would make that claim.

In fact, the text makes no break between the two verses.

I wasn't trying to make any break between the 2 verses. They clearly go together.

The repetition of the phrase "come to Me and comes to Me" connects these two verses and continues the theme begun in 6:37 The one who comes to Christ is the one drawn by the Father.

BECAUSE the Father has taught everyone. That's the key.

In 6:45 the one who comes to Christ is the one who has "heard and learned from the Father." Hearing and learning are descriptive of the action of drawing.

OK. But listening and learning are free actions from the students.

Anyone who has been in a classroom environment knows that some listen and learn and some don't.

Not only that, you have another problem. Because, "unless the father who sent Me draws Him," is not the end of the passage. It goes on to say, I will raise him in the last day.

And this fits precisely into my theology of eternal security.

And there his no reason, contextually, theologically, grammatically to believe that the first him, is different than the second him. In other words, all who are drawn are to be raised in the last day by Jesus.

Of course they will. Jesus said as much in John 5:24 and 10:28.

You are simply refusing to start at the beginning and follow Jesus through His teachings.

Quite the contrary.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

There is no problem with this verse and my theology. It all fits together very well.

But I'm curious as to why you think there is a problem with eternal security and what I've posted.

Have you made the mistake of assuming just because I debate Calvinists that I'm an Arminian? That would be a huge mistake.

 

[Hammster]

Some do. They're called Arminians. Oh, and Pharisees.

But I don't.

Good grief.

Can anyone have faith and still be in the flesh?

 

[Dr. Jack]

Could you please answer my simple question?

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me

What comes first. The coming to Christ or the giving to Christ.

It seems as though there is contention concerning these verses:

6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John

What Calvinism teaches concerning these verses is that ...
1) In order for a man to come to Christ, the Father must FIRST draw him. (verse 44)
2) When the Father draws a man, that man will then be given to Christ. (verse 37)
Conclusion that is assumed:
The Father only draws the "elect", which He gives to Christ.

Is this in agreement wwit Scripture? No.

A) It is automatically assumed as a presupposition that only the "elect" are "draw[n]" by the Father; but this text does not say that.
B) We do have a Scripture that does say exactly who the Father will "draw" ...

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John

To what was Jesus referring to, when speaking of being "lifted up"?

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Now let's put these teachings of Jesus together ...

Jesus tells Nicodemus that as the serpent was lifted up He must be lifted up.

How was the serpent "lifted up"; and for what purpose was it lifted up?

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers

The purpose of the serpent was to bring the people to a place of repentance concerning their sin. They, by faith in God, looked upon the serpent in order to live.

Jesus told Nicodemus that He, in like manner would be lifted up so that all that looked upon Him in faith might live.

In John 12, Jesus clearly stated that if I be lifted up (like Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness) from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Jesus clearly stated that "all men" would be drawn.

Hence when we read "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"; we see that man doesn't make the initial move toward God by his power, or will; rather, the first move that draws man to God is made by God.

1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John

The question then is, does man respond to this being "drawn", or does he reject it?

If man rejects the offer made by God, he dies, (just like in the wilderness with the brazen serpent); if he accepts that invitation by God, God then gives him to His Son.

Now we see ...

1) God initially invites, and draws man.
2) Man responds to the invitation.
3) God continues to guide man to the Son.

All of the Scriptures are in harmony.

 

[Hammster]

It seems as though there is contention concerning these verses:

6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John

What Calvinism teaches concerning these verses is that ...
1) In order for a man to come to Christ, the Father must FIRST draw him. (verse 44)
2) When the Father draws a man, that man will then be given to Christ. (verse 37)
Conclusion that is assumed:
The Father only draws the "elect", which He gives to Christ.

Is this in agreement wwit Scripture? No.

A) It is automatically assumed as a presupposition that only the "elect" are "draw[n]" by the Father; but this text does not say that.
B) We do have a Scripture that does say exactly who the Father will "draw" ...

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John

To what was Jesus referring to, when speaking of being "lifted up"?

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Now let's put these teachings of Jesus together ...

Jesus tells Nicodemus that as the serpent was lifted up He must be lifted up.

How was the serpent "lifted up"; and for what purpose was it lifted up?

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers

The purpose of the serpent was to bring the people to a place of repentance concerning their sin. They, by faith in God, looked upon the serpent in order to live.

Jesus told Nicodemus that He, in like manner would be lifted up so that all that looked upon Him in faith might live.

In John 12, Jesus clearly stated that if I be lifted up (like Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness) from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Jesus clearly stated that "all men" would be drawn.

Hence when we read "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"; we see that man doesn't make the initial move toward God by his power, or will; rather, the first move that draws man to God is made by God.

1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John

The question then is, does man respond to this being "drawn", or does he reject it?

If man rejects the offer made by God, he dies, (just like in the wilderness with the brazen serpent); if he accepts that invitation by God, God then gives him to His Son.

Now we see ...

1) God initially invites, and draws man.
2) Man responds to the invitation.
3) God continues to guide man to the Son.

All of the Scriptures are in harmony.

When man responds, is he in the flesh or the Spirit?

 

[Dr. Jack]

I keep seeing the term "in the flesh" and ""in the spirit". That tells me that those providing those terms probably subscribe to man being a dichotomous being, but that isn't Scriptural.

Usually, those same people also try to assert that Roman's 7 is addressing the lost man, while Roman's 8 is addressing the saved person. Not so.

Paul writes in the 1st person in Romans 7, while also using the present tense. (Meaning Paul was bearing witness to his own struggles with the flesh ... as a saved person). Paul was clearly saved, writing by inspiration of God, when he wrote Roman's 7.

This whole issue of being in the flesh isn't referring to being "lost", it's referring to operating according to the desires of the flesh, instead of yielding our members to the power of the Spirit.

That is exactly what Paul discussed in Roman's 7. When Paul begins chaper 8, Paul is reassuring the Romans that, inspite of struggling with the power and desires of the flesh daily in our service toward God; we can rest assured that ...

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans

The key here are the words "in Christ Jesus".

This is where the importance of knowing we are a trichotomous being, rather than a dichotomous being comes into play.

Calvinism relies heavily on man being a dichotomous being. (body and soul)

If the soul is dead, Calvinism would have ground to stand on. There would be no chance for us in the power of our natural bodies to contact God.

Even if we could see God (physically) we could have no comprehension of Him having a Spiritual nature. it would be beyond the reaches of the natural realm.

God would indeed have to regenerate our soul prior to us being able to relate to the spiritual realm.

However, man is a trichotomous being, and not a dichotomous being. We have a body, a soul, and a spirit.

When Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden, his soul died, (as God said it would). However, Adam's spirit was very much alive.

3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Genesis

Notice these phrases:
And they heard the voice of the LORD God
And the LORD God called unto Adam
I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid

Adam was still able to hear God, and distinguish His voice. He spoke to God, and God spoke to him. He knew it was God, but his soul was dead.

Although Adam's soul was currently dead, God still called to Adam, and Adam (now lost) was still able to converse with God. The natural man (that which pertains to his flesh) is limited to the natural realm. Adam was clearly not limited to the natural realm, he still recognized God, and even had the ability to talk to God.

4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis

Cain killed his brother, yet, when God visited him, he too could continue to converse with God. Even when God pronounced His judgment upon Cain, Cain was still able to converse with God.

4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand. 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. Genesis

I want you to also notice this exchange between God, and Cain:

4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Genesis

Notice please ...
1) Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
2) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
3) the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

Cain doesn't bring an acceptable offering to God.
Cain is angry because his offering is rejected.
God pleads with Adam to give the correct offering, so that it IS accepted.

So all during this process, God has been dealing with lost people, that can, and do speak with Him.

Now if the dichotomous view of man were true, this would be impossible. The natural man cannot know God. Why would God plead with Cain to make the correct offering (that would have been accepted), if God knows Adam in the natural "unregenerate" man, that cannot hear Him? (Knowing it is God that he was speaking to.)

 

[Dr. Jack]

When man responds, is he in the flesh or the Spirit?

Read post #217. Any questions or comments ... feel free.

 

[Hammster]

Read post #217. Any questions or comments ... feel free.

Well, you didn’t answer my question, so I have none for you.

 

[Dr. Jack]

When man responds, is he in the flesh or the Spirit?

I gave you an explanation from Scripture that doesn't fit your false dichotomy.

Paul wrote to the believers in his Epistles. Meaning that, when he speaks TO THEM about being in "the flesh", or being in "the spirit", he isn't referring to being saved, or unsaved, he's referring to either being in submission to the Spirit, (therefore being in "the spirit"), or NOT being in submission to the Spirit, (therefore being led by the desires of the flesh ... being in "the flesh").

Any time a believer fails to submit to the HS, that believer is in the flesh, and does NOT please God.

It is more pleasing to God for a lost person to submit to the calling of the gospel, through the preaching of the Word in the power of the HS, than for a believer to turn his back on God, not yield to the HS, and thereby walk in the flesh.

So, the person who yields to the HS when the gospel is preached, is by definition in "the Spirit", for he has yielded to the HS, which is pleasing to God.