Please explain if no one is predestined

[Hammster]

I said:
"According to Ryle, God chooses who will believe then. Even if he never said those particular words. The Bible frequently states that salvation is by faith in Christ. It is no secret at all."

Everyone is free to form their own opinions.


Which is my point. "by faith" is a condition. Salvation is conditioned upon faith.

But Ryle doesn't believe your claim here. He said:
"The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows. God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ."

The red words are false, and unbiblical. And don't agree with your words.


Please address the examples I gave and show any that were chosen for salvation.

Further, please just provide any verse that says that election is to salvation.


Where are your verses then? You can claim all you want, but I'm interested in actual verses.


Seriously?

He quoted 4 verses from Jesus. None said election was to salvation.
He quoted 6 from Paul. None said election was to salvation.
He quoted 2 from Peter. None said election was to salvation.

1 Pet 1:2 actually supports my claim; that election is to salvation.

Here it is: who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

A bit of color coding for clarity.

The red words state the purpose of election; "to be obedient". Which is service, not salvation.

The blue words should give Calvinists pause. Election is "according to God's foreknowledge". Notice that Peter didn't say "according to His sovereignty".

So far, neither Ryle nor you have provided ANY verse that teaches that election is to salvation.

Would you like to discuss 2 Thess 2:13?

I tried.

Good day, brother.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It’s not God who chooses, then.

God has already chosen how to get sinners saved.
He gave his Son to die on the cross.
He called preachers to preach the gospel
Mankind has the power of choice - Jesus said "If you, being evil know how to give good gifts to your children..." etc., Then man is able to choose between good and evil.
Then God responds to the person on the basis of the person's choice - whether to accept Jesus or reject Him.

 

[Hammster]

God has already chosen how to get sinners saved.
He gave his Son to die on the cross.
He called preachers to preach the gospel
Mankind has the power of choice - Jesus said "If you, being evil know how to give good gifts to your children..." etc., Then man is able to choose between good and evil.
Then God responds to the person on the basis of the person's choice - whether to accept Jesus or reject Him.

Would you say, then, that a man without a new heart can please God? Or another way to phrase it, that a man in the flesh can please God?

 

[Dr. Jack]

I tried.

Good day, brother.

Do you believe man is a dichotomous being, or a trichotomous being?

 

[sungaunga]

Do you see the point here? Who "comes to me"? Jesus tells us plainly.

Those who listened and learned from His Father. Hm. Sounds like free will. Not being chosen with some "secret motives" on God's part, as Ryle seemed to think.

Last I checked, verses 37 and 44 comes before verse 45. Who are those who listened and learned? Those that are given to Jesus by God. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me." What comes first? The coming or the giving?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Would you say, then, that a man without a new heart can please God? Or another way to phrase it, that a man in the flesh can please God?

No. I didn't say that at all. I said that man in his unsaved state still has the power of choice about what he wants to believe or disbelieve. This means that any person can hear the gospel and decide to believe it. Even the devil and his demons believe the gospel implicitly, but they are so depraved that they would never choose to repent and get right with God. Anyway, the gospel is not directed to them and it is not for them. It is for fallen men under the wrath of God because of their rebellion against Him and their sins. But natural man has the intelligence to hear, understand, and believe the gospel - or not.

This is a departure from extreme Calvinism that says that man is so depraved that he does not have the power of choice unless by the Holy Spirit. But this means that a man has to be regenerated before he can choose to believe the gospel. This is right against common sense. That says that an unsaved sinner can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit while still an unbeliever! That's absurd!

And if man cannot choose to believe the gospel without the work of the Holy Spirit, why make the effort to preach the gospel and to persuade men to believe it? Paul spent much time persuading men to believe the gospel. If it had to be a work of the Holy Spirit to get a person just to choose to believe it, he would have just remained on his couch and home and prayed that God would help them choose!

But man is responsible for his choices. He can't be made to choose by an act of God. He has to freely choose to believe and accept the gospel. Then, once he has made that choice, the Holy Spirit then starts the work in him.

 

[Hammster]

No. I didn't say that at all. I said that man in his unsaved state still has the power of choice about what he wants to believe or disbelieve. This means that any person can hear the gospel and decide to believe it. Even the devil and his demons believe the gospel implicitly, but they are so depraved that they would never choose to repent and get right with God. Anyway, the gospel is not directed to them and it is not for them. It is for fallen men under the wrath of God because of their rebellion against Him and their sins. But natural man has the intelligence to hear, understand, and believe the gospel - or not.

This is a departure from extreme Calvinism that says that man is so depraved that he does not have the power of choice unless by the Holy Spirit. But this means that a man has to be regenerated before he can choose to believe the gospel. This is right against common sense. That says that an unsaved sinner can be regenerated by the Holy Spirit while still an unbeliever! That's absurd!

And if man cannot choose to believe the gospel without the work of the Holy Spirit, why make the effort to preach the gospel and to persuade men to believe it? Paul spent much time persuading men to believe the gospel. If it had to be a work of the Holy Spirit to get a person just to choose to believe it, he would have just remained on his couch and home and prayed that God would help them choose!

But man is responsible for his choices. He can't be made to choose by an act of God. He has to freely choose to believe and accept the gospel. Then, once he has made that choice, the Holy Spirit then starts the work in him.

First you said that you didn’t say that. But then you argued as if you did.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

First you said that you didn’t say that. But then you argued as if you did.

I didn't say that man had to receive the ability from the Holy Spirit before he could choose to accept the gospel. To say that means that the man has to be regenerated before he could make the choice. That's nonsense. Choice has to come before regeneration. A man has to choose to accept the gospel before he can receive anything of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say that man had to receive the ability from the Holy Spirit before he could choose to accept the gospel. To say that means that the man has to be regenerated before he could make the choice. That's nonsense. Choice has to come before regeneration. A man has to choose to accept the gospel before he can receive anything of the Holy Spirit.

Do you think that believing is pleasing to God?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Would you say, then, that a man without a new heart can please God? Or another way to phrase it, that a man in the flesh can please God?

Do you think that believing is pleasing to God?

Great questions.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Where does faith come from? Some people have it and some don't.

More great questions. The most simple answer though "God" will surely not be sufficient. One way to explain is, we have two groups of people, Christian and non-Christian (simplified yes but for this purpose it's useful). The Christian has experienced a "new birth", and in this new birth all things have become new, including the nature of faith. In past posts for illustration, I've described this change in nature using resurrection terminology of a dead faith being raised to a living faith. Or using even more terminology, autonomous faith transformed into Theonomous faith. So although the word "faith" is attached to both, there is a distinction between the visible "faith" in other religions, and Saving faith in Jesus Christ. This distinction accounts for counterfeit faiths and the faith people have in themselves (autonomy). I hope this is helpful. God bless you Ann.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I tried.

Good day, brother.

No, you didn't. There was zero interaction with my post #180. I laid out Scriptural evidence that election is for service, and neither you nor Ryle provided ANY evidence that election is to salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Would you say, then, that a man without a new heart can please God? Or another way to phrase it, that a man in the flesh can please God?

The Bible tells us how to please God.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So, when any unbeliever "comes to Him" in faith, that pleases God.

And this is God's response:
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Last I checked, verses 37 and 44 comes before verse 45. Who are those who listened and learned? Those that are given to Jesus by God. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me." What comes first? The coming or the giving?

Well, I already pointed out that v.44 comes before v.45. And I pointed out that v.45 explains what v.44 says.

But, since you bring in v.37, let's take a look:
v.37 - All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

So, your point? v.37 simply repeats v.44.

Did you miss v.40? "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

 

[Hammster]

The Bible tells us how to please God.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So, when any unbeliever "comes to Him" in faith, that pleases God.

And this is God's response:
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Paul isn’t addressing the new birth here. He’s addressing justification, which is seen more clearly when you look at the context.

And your statement about unbelievers coming to Him makes no sense. Unbelievers don’t come to Him. Only believers do.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

I think if we are being honest, and not just trying to score debate points, we have to conclude that that it’s the unbeliever who is in the flesh. Since we agree that believing is pleasing to God, then we’d also have to agree, according to Paul, the one must be in the Spirit to please Him. And that is not how the unregenerate are ever described under the new covenant.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

question, some people had faith before they received the Holy Spirit. wonder how.

Who?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The Bible tells us how to please God.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So, when any unbeliever "comes to Him" in faith, that pleases God.

And this is God's response:
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

Paul isn’t addressing the new birth here. He’s addressing justification, which is seen more clearly when you look at the context.

Unfortunately, Calvinists don't understand the new birth. They believe unbelievers are given new birth, which allows the unbeliever to believe. And all without any evidence from Scripture.

It is believers who are then born again, the exact opposite of Calvinistic thinking.

But, please don't take my word for anything. Let's look at what Scripture says about it.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

I think reasonable people will see that the red words are the same thing. After telling us that we have been "made alive with Christ", he clarifies by saying "you have been saved".

There is no reason to assume that any unbeliever can be born again, or "made alive".

Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Here, the red words are the means by which one is saved. That means that faith MUST precede being saved. iow, one cannot be saved apart from faith.

So, when considering v.5 and 8, we see that faith precedes being born again and salvation.

And, there are NO verses that place regeneration before faith, or regeneration.

And your statement about unbelievers coming to Him makes no sense. Unbelievers don’t come to Him. Only believers do.

What doesn't make sense is the Calvinistic claim that regeneration precedes faith and salvation. No evidence is senseless.

Actually, the words "come to Him" is a reference to faith IN Him. That should be obvious.

How do you understand John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus used the metaphor of a gate to describe Himself. And "entering through the gate" refers to faith in Him.

So, salvation follows "entering through Him", or faith in Him.

Did you notice in v.9 that Jesus didn't say anything about God "doing something" so that a sheep will enter through the gate. Yet, Calvinists continue to think so.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Romans 8:5-8

I think if we are being honest, and not just trying to score debate points, we have to conclude that that it’s the unbeliever who is in the flesh.

Do you believe that I've "scored debate points" here? I'm not looking to score anything, but to defend the truth of God's word.

I think your view of the above passage is rather shallow. Paul was addressing believers.

So the whole passage applies to believers. Don't you think a believer can "live according to the flesh (carnal)? If not, why don't you believe Paul in 1 Cor 3-
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly (fleshly)—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still worldly (fleshly). For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly (fleshly)? Are you not acting like mere humans?

Since we agree that believing is pleasing to God, then we’d also have to agree, according to Paul, the one must be in the Spirit to please Him.

That's a leap.

And that is not how the unregenerate are ever described under the new covenant.

Then go ahead and don't believe how Paul characterized the Corinthian believers.

But I've provided plenty of evidence from Scripture.

 

[Hammster]

I said:
"The Bible tells us how to please God.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

So, when any unbeliever "comes to Him" in faith, that pleases God.

And this is God's response:
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

Unfortunately, Calvinists don't understand the new birth. They believe unbelievers are given new birth, which allows the unbeliever to believe. And all without any evidence from Scripture.

It is believers who are then born again, the exact opposite of Calvinistic thinking.

But, please don't take my word for anything. Let's look at what Scripture says about it.

Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

I think reasonable people will see that the red words are the same thing. After telling us that we have been "made alive with Christ", he clarifies by saying "you have been saved".

There is no reason to assume that any unbeliever can be born again, or "made alive".

Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Here, the red words are the means by which one is saved. That means that faith MUST precede being saved. iow, one cannot be saved apart from faith.

So, when considering v.5 and 8, we see that faith precedes being born again and salvation.

And, there are NO verses that place regeneration before faith, or regeneration.


What doesn't make sense is the Calvinistic claim that regeneration precedes faith and salvation. No evidence is senseless.

Actually, the words "come to Him" is a reference to faith IN Him. That should be obvious.

How do you understand John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus used the metaphor of a gate to describe Himself. And "entering through the gate" refers to faith in Him.

So, salvation follows "entering through Him", or faith in Him.

Did you notice in v.9 that Jesus didn't say anything about God "doing something" so that a sheep will enter through the gate. Yet, Calvinists continue to think so.


Do you believe that I've "scored debate points" here? I'm not looking to score anything, but to defend the truth of God's word.

I think your view of the above passage is rather shallow. Paul was addressing believers.

So the whole passage applies to believers. Don't you think a believer can "live according to the flesh (carnal)? If not, why don't you believe Paul in 1 Cor 3-
1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly (fleshly)—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still worldly (fleshly). For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly (fleshly)? Are you not acting like mere humans?


That's a leap.


Then go ahead and don't believe how Paul characterized the Corinthian believers.

But I've provided plenty of evidence from Scripture.

It’s your contention that Paul is addressing believers in Romans 8, and that when in the flesh, they cannot please God. And there’s truth in that. But if a believer who is in the flesh cannot please God, then it’s more so that an unbeliever cannot please Him.

He does make us alive as Ephesians 2:5 says. The context is that we are dead and He makes us alive. That’s regeneration. Regeneration is part of salvation. It’s not all of it, though. We are born again, and then we believe. Justification comes by belief.

This just makes it more clear that those in the flesh (whether unbelievers or believers not walking as they should) cannot please God.

 

[sungaunga]

Well, I already pointed out that v.44 comes before v.45. And I pointed out that v.45 explains what v.44 says.

But, since you bring in v.37, let's take a look:
v.37 - All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

So, your point? v.37 simply repeats v.44.

Did you miss v.40? "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Could you please answer my simple question?

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me

What comes first. The coming to Christ or the giving to Christ.