Please explain if no one is predestined

[this is not my name]

Many are called but few are chosen. God could have made creatures who would have no genuine response to Him, but He didn't. A command to turn from wickedness is worthless if the elect will repent and no one else will no matter what. You still don't explain how He can want to save all people, like is said in 1 Timothy 2:4, and yet have predestined most of them to hell.



That goes without saying, for all of us.

I would like to say that the law was put in place for the sinners, not for the righteous. the law is to show that we all fall short of the glory of God and need a Savior. then we need to be obedient to the call to repent and be saved. God is just. Even if God decided not to send His Son into the world to die for our sins, and everyone died and went to hell, He would be just in doing so.

 

[this is not my name]

question, some people had faith before they received the Holy Spirit. wonder how.

 

[this is not my name]

God gives faith, though He also looks at the hearts of people. is it that some people have a heart that is better set to repent and believe than others? the thing that does not make sense is that it was often big sinners that had great love, like the prostitute who broke the alabaster jar on Jesus's head. and sin hardens people's hearts, though maybe the bigger problem was pride. those who thought they were righteous were probably more likely to be prideful, and to rely on themselves instead of God, unlike the previously hopeless sinners, who acknowledged their need of a Savior, and humbled themselves, and received forgiveness.

 

[Rescued One]

Many are called but few are chosen. God could have made creatures who would have no genuine response to Him, but He didn't. A command to turn from wickedness is worthless if the elect will repent and no one else will no matter what. You still don't explain how He can want to save all people, like is said in 1 Timothy 2:4, and yet have predestined most of them to hell.

He predestined no one to hell. Only those who reject him and live lives of sin go to hell.

You haven't explained why He won't save all people if He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. He brought the Israelites out of Egypt. He saved their firstborn sons while they were in Egypt (Passover).

Why doesn't God save everyone?
The answer the Arminians give is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer the Reformed give is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God’s glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22–23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).
-John Piper

 

[Dr. Jack]

Yes, we have faith when we are in the Spirit. The natural man has no faith in Christ.

Could you please define "the natural man"?

 

[worshipjunkie]

He predestined no one to hell. Only those who reject him and live lives of sin go to hell.

You haven't explained why He won't save all people if He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone. He brought the Israelites out of Egypt. He saved their firstborn sons while they were in Egypt (Passover).

But it's not a true rejection. If they're part of the elect, they have no choice but to chose Him, and if they aren't, they have no choice but to reject. It's God moving the pieces on His chessboard. He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but that does not mean it is not for His glory. He has said that He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, and He has also said that His will is done and He is glorified.
Do you believe God takes pleasure in people going to hell? Do you believe God has to create people to condemn to show His sovereignty?

Why doesn't God save everyone?
The answer the Arminians give is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer the Reformed give is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God’s glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22–23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).
-John Piper

I'm not an Arminian anymore then you're a Calvinist, right? I read and believe the Bible.
To have some ability to choose doesn't mean that man is not humbled or doesn't give all glory to God for His salvation. If I was drowning, and someone swam out to save me, and I took their hand, there is absolutely no merit in my decision. All glory is still given to the rescuer. And I don't believe God has to create people just to destroy them to manifest His glory. I believe His glory is shown in many ways, but in this case in particular by creating children of God.

 

[Dr. Jack]

It’s biblical. Is a misnomer to call it Calvinism.

Thanks for your reply, although I must admit, I disagree. One of the first, (if not the first) post in this thread used John 15 to assert the "unconditional election" position: which I have already shown is not speaking of salvation in its contextual presentation.

 

[Dr. Jack]

But it's not a true rejection. If they're part of the elect, they have no choice but to chose Him, and if they aren't, they have no choice but to reject. It's God moving the pieces on His chessboard. He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but that does not mean it is not for His glory. He has said that He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, and He has also said that His will is done and He is glorified.
Do you believe God takes pleasure in people going to hell? Do you believe God has to create people to condemn to show His sovereignty?



I'm not an Arminian anymore then you're a Calvinist, right? I read and believe the Bible.
To have some ability to choose doesn't mean that man is not humbled or doesn't give all glory to God for His salvation. If I was drowning, and someone swam out to save me, and I took their hand, there is absolutely no merit in my decision. All glory is still given to the rescuer. And I don't believe God has to create people just to destroy them to manifest His glory. I believe His glory is shown in many ways, but in this case in particular by creating children of God.

Your last point here is one I have stated many times. A very long time ago I lived by the ocean and used that analogy. People who do not think they are drowning will not call for help because they think they have the ability to save themselves. However, after they wear themselves out, they come to the place where they realize they are without hope, having no ability to save themselves. Now here is an additional tidbit ... not only do they loose any ability to save themselves (from drowning), but they realize they even lack the power (ability) to hold on to the rescuer. Hence, they are completely without hope ... does this sound familiar?

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Ephesians

I have nothing to glory of in seeing that I was without God, with no hope. My Redeemer came to me, but it is because He enabled me to see I was drowning. Why did God allow me to see I was drowning? I could give a list of reasons; but for this time I will give only one: God had laid it upon the hearts of His saints to earnestly pray for my soul to be saved. God the HS worked through my spirit to tell me that I was drowning. He worked through my spirit because there were saints asking Him to do just that. Why were they asking Him to work on my spirit? In my case, God had called a particular person to reach me, and that person prayed for me, as God told him to.

I believe the number one reason God doesn't open more people's eyes to His grace, is because we the saints are not praying faithfully. We have not, because we ask not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But it's not a true rejection. If they're part of the elect, they have no choice but to chose Him, and if they aren't, they have no choice but to reject.

What verse(s) or passage(s) say this?

It's God moving the pieces on His chessboard.

Got it. He's the puppet master, and we are His puppets.

Verses on this as well?

He takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, but that does not mean it is not for His glory.

This is double speak. If anyone's death is "for His glory", He most assuredly take pleasure in what is for His glory.

I'm not an Arminian anymore then you're a Calvinist, right?

Your talking points come straight out of a Calvinist position paper.

I read and believe the Bible.

Everyone says that.

 

[worshipjunkie]

What verse(s) or passage(s) say this?


Got it. He's the puppet master, and we are His puppets.

Verses on this as well?


This is double speak. If anyone's death is "for His glory", He most assuredly take pleasure in what is for His glory.


Your talking points come straight out of a Calvinist position paper.


Everyone says that.

I think you may have me confused with another post- I'm not arguing for the Calvinist position; my above quoted points are my problems with it, not my statements of it.
And you're right everyone says they read and believe the Bible, which is why I put it after she said it, because I do think it's an overused statement.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you may have me confused with another post- I'm not arguing for the Calvinist position; my above quoted points are my problems with it, not my statements of it.

Your post "sounded" as though you believed what you were posting.

Sorry for my mistake.

 

[worshipjunkie]

Your last point here is one I have stated many times. A very long time ago I lived by the ocean and used that analogy. People who do not think they are drowning will not call for help because they think they have the ability to save themselves. However, after they wear themselves out, they come to the place where they realize they are without hope, having no ability to save themselves. Now here is an additional tidbit ... not only do they loose any ability to save themselves (from drowning), but they realize they even lack the power (ability) to hold on to the rescuer. Hence, they are completely without hope ... does this sound familiar?

Very familiar. And I would state that it does not take away glory from the rescuer if you consent to being rescued.

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Ephesians

I have nothing to glory of in seeing that I was without God, with no hope. My Redeemer came to me, but it is because He enabled me to see I was drowning....
I believe the number one reason God doesn't open more people's eyes to His grace, is because we the saints are not praying faithfully. We have not, because we ask not.

It is true. We do not pray enough for the unsaved. I know in my case, as well, it was the prayers of a couple of people that enabled me to see that I was drowning.

 

[worshipjunkie]

Your post "sounded" as though you believed what you were posting.

Sorry for my mistake.

Sorry for my adding to the confusion.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Very familiar. And I would state that it does not take away glory from the rescuer if you consent to being rescued.



It is true. We do not pray enough for the unsaved. I know in my case, as well, it was the prayers of a couple of people that enabled me to see that I was drowning.

Not only does it not take away, it proclaims it! I proclaims the love of God, in His desire to save us, yet, He is bound by His own holiness not to interfere by forcing His will upon us.

What a wonderful Saviour we have, to provide salvation to each and every soul He created. And then the idea of allowing us, who were unworthy of such a great salvation to pray, preach, and teach the glory of God ... Jesus Christ the Righteous! WOW!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think there are serious issues with Calvinism.

As do I.

It is my observation that Calvinists NEED to put the focus on where man is because of the fall, but very much try to avoid WHY did the fall occur? (In accordance with Covenant Theology.)

Right. They commit double speak. God is the first CAUSE of everything, yet man is free in his actions. Totally contradictory.

Covenant Theology asserts 1) the Covenant of Redemption; 2) the Covenant of Works; and 3) the Covenant of Grace.

Have you ever stopped to ponder the inconsistency of these Covenants?

I hadn't. Good point!

 

[Dr. Jack]

Dr. Jack said: ↑
"I didn't see that in this thread. So help me out here ...

What is the Covenant of Works? The following excerpts were taken from ... carm.org - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry"

Excellent summary of the contradictions within Calvinism.

Another big dodge.

Not only is there no actual response to the excellent summary of the problem, there is a shift to "another thread", but unnamed.

Actually, since this very thread addresses the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, this thread is a PERFECT thread for discussing this issue.

I started a new thread in Soteriology ... I'm sure you can find it. Please follow along!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I started a new thread in Soteriology ... I'm sure you can find it. Please follow along!

Thanks! I'm always trying to pin down the other poster as to his views, and it seems there is always a dodge one way or another.

We'll see what happens!!

 

[FireDragon76]

Predestination is biblical, but it's a matter of Gospel, not Law. God doesn't just love abstraction like "humanity", he loves actual persons.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Like I pointed out, this thread is appropriate enough.

But it seems there is no interest on your part to engage.

I will bring my comments here ...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Predestination is biblical, but it's a matter of Gospel, not Law. God doesn't just love abstraction like "humanity", he loves actual persons.

The only legitimate question about predestination is to ask: predestined to WHAT, specifically?

I await your answer.