Please explain if no one is predestined

[Dr. Jack]

What is the Covenant of Works?

The following excerpts were taken from ... carm.org - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

"The Covenant of Works, also known as the Edenic Covenant, is the covenant that God had with Adam in the Garden of Eden where Adam would maintain his position with God through his obedience to the command of God to multiply and fill the earth, subdue it, and also not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."

"Some say this is not a covenant, but according to Hosea 6:7 it is. "But like Adam, they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me." Covenants are usually accompanied with stipulations of rewards and punishments. The implication of keeping the requirements of God would be that Adam would have been blessed in his endeavors, which is implied in the "tree of life." The curse of breaking the covenant resulted in his death (Genesis 2:17), and death in the case of Adam and Eve began the moment they sinned."

My comments: The first thing I must say is that I am NOT denying a "covenant"; what I AM questioning, is the CONTENTS of the covenant.

What I want people to notice here is that the Author of the above uses for a 'first' line of defense: 'Is this an actual covenant'? Yes it is; but what does it actually say?

Notice the author's words from the second excerpt ... "The implication of keeping the requirements of God would be that Adam would have been blessed in his endeavors, which is implied in the "tree of life.""

What blessing is this author referring to? We can see the answer at another Calvinist site ...

Ligonier Ministries

"To understand the covenant of works, we must consider Adam’s state in the garden of Eden before the fall. God created Adam “good” and in the proper relationship with Him (Gen. 1:31). He was not as good as could be, however. By obeying the command to not eat the forbidden fruit (vv. 16-17), Adam could have reflected God’s glory more fully, and would have merited eternal life for himself and his descendants. We know this to be the case because that is what Jesus did, and Jesus is the second Adam tasked with fulfilling the vocation of the first Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)."

It is the belief of Calvinist's that had Adam NOT transgressed in the Garden of Eden, Adam would have "merited eternal life for himself and his descendants".

This however is impossible for a minimum of two reasons. 1) The reason Jesus was able to secure enternal 'spiritual' life for mankind was because He was God in the flesh. 2) (According to Calvinism)

Adam was determined, and decreed by the Sovereign God to transgress in the Garden of Eden; while God had by His own determinate counsel was decreed to be the Redeemer; meaning, it would be impossible for Him to transgress in any way. Since the two Adams were decreed for opposite purposes, it would be impossible for the first Adam to accomplish anything other than what he did accomplish.

Hence, for the Calvinist to claim what the first Adam could have done 'by implication' is an absolute fallacy. We must then consider what the text actually does state.

2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis

We have here a text with two parts:
1) the command [But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:]; and
2) the consequence [for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die].

Each day that Adam and Eve obeyed God, it reflected their belief in God. (Spiritual life)
But the day they disobeyed God, it reflected their unbelief in God. (Spiritual death)

The Tree of Life possessed something that prolonged, (or at least sustained) physical life. This is why they were removed from the Garden of Eden, had they continued to eat of the Tree of Life, their physical bodies would not die; condemning them to physical immortality, while suffering from spiritual death. In the resurrection, in Christ, we will have full restoration (if you would) of both.

Hence, we have the issue of the Covenant of Redemption being a cause of the Fall of Adam (God in fact decreed it). Then we have the issue of God actually making a Covenant of Works that would have allowed man to "merit" eternal life, which would give no glory to God. Then we have the issue of God making a Covenant of Works, which He had already decreed to fail. (The Covenant of Redemption as presented by Calvinists required the decree of God for Adam to transgress his law.)

Finally, the Covenant of Works completely contradicts the Covenant of Grace ... and why wouldn't it. (It's the idea that the same God made both Covenants (according to Calvinism).)

 

[FireDragon76]

The only legitimate question about predestination is to ask: predestined to WHAT, specifically?

I await your answer.

To salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The only legitimate question about predestination is to ask: predestined to WHAT, specifically?

I await your answer.

To salvation.

Thanks for the answer.

However, what Scipture actually says this?

In fact, here is Scripture that tells us what we are predestined for:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." Rom 8:29

First, we know that predestination is for believers only, by the words "those God foreknew He also predestined".

Second, we know what believers are predestined for: to be conformed to the image of His Son.

And, ultimately, all believers will receive their resurrection bodies, which will be LIKE HIS, according to Phil 3:21 - who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Having read through the NT monthly for well over a decade, I have never seen any verse about anyone being "predestined" to salvation.

That should be filed under "fake news".

Similar to the false notion that election is to salvation. Election is to service. Every believer is elected or chosen for service.

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love...

In 1 Thess 3:13 we see the goal of Paul's prayer to the Thessalonians:
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

1 Pet 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

 

[FireDragon76]

To be holy and blameless... sounds like salvation to me.

 

[Dr. Jack]

To be holy and blameless... sounds like salvation to me.

Not really.

1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter

Peter is writing to saved people here. It doesn't make any sense for Peter to tell saved people to "be saved". That would be a senseless redundancy.

 

[Dr. Jack]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The only legitimate question about predestination is to ask: predestined to WHAT, specifically?

I await your answer.

Thanks for the answer.

However, what Scipture actually says this?

In fact, here is Scripture that tells us what we are predestined for:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." Rom 8:29

First, we know that predestination is for believers only, by the words "those God foreknew He also predestined".

Second, we know what believers are predestined for: to be conformed to the image of His Son.

And, ultimately, all believers will receive their resurrection bodies, which will be LIKE HIS, according to Phil 3:21 - who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Having read through the NT monthly for well over a decade, I have never seen any verse about anyone being "predestined" to salvation.

That should be filed under "fake news".

Similar to the false notion that election is to salvation. Election is to service. Every believer is elected or chosen for service.

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love...

In 1 Thess 3:13 we see the goal of Paul's prayer to the Thessalonians:
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

1 Pet 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

I would like to take the liberty to address a Scripture
you present in the above comment.

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians

Normally when this verse is presented (supporting determinism or Calvinism) the emphasis is on the words, "he chose us" and "before the foundation of the world", I however would like to focus on the two words neglected by Calvinists ... "in him".

Now let us put these words together again ...

"he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"

What is the purpose of the two words "in him"? The words "in him" clarify the parameters of whom God chose.

Allow me to illustrate:

I am planning on having a dinner for some homeless people at a location outside the city. This will involve a particular amount of logistics on my part. Normally, homeless people don't have cars. Hence, I must also provide these people with transportation. It is my desire to feed them at 6PM. The journey, by bus, will take about 55 minutes. Therefore, I must make sure any participants are in the bus at 5PM, and no later. I make signs stating that those people who are in the bus at 5PM will be taken to get a fee meal.

On the day of the event, my driver closes the door of the bus at 5PM, and takes those in the bus to their free meal.

However, the next day, I get complaints saying that people were left on the site where the bus was parked, and the bus left without taking other people who were present.

When asked, "Were you in the bus? the people replied, "No, but I was standing outside the bus talking". I would then ask, "Why weren't you in the bus"? The person complaining would reply, "I was waiting to be told the bus was ready".

My simple reply would be, "The sign stated that "those people who are in the bus at 5PM will be taken to get a fee meal". I had determined that, if people wanted a free meal, they would insure they would be "in the bus" at 5PM.

What I had determined to do prior to the event was to chose those in the bus at 5PM to receive the free meal.

Hence, when we read,

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

... we realize that it is those who accept being in Christ for their salvation, that God chose, before the foundation of the world, "that we should be holy and without blame before him in love".

 

[FreeGrace2]

To be holy and blameless... sounds like salvation to me.

Don't miss the fact that the verses I showed are for believers to obey. And by "believers", I mean SAVED people. They are saved ALREADY.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would like to take the liberty to address a Scripture
you present in the above comment.

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians

Normally when this verse is presented (supporting determinism or Calvinism) the emphasis is on the words, "he chose us" and "before the foundation of the world", I however would like to focus on the two words neglected by Calvinists ... "in him".

Now let us put these words together again ...

"he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"

What is the purpose of the two words "in him"? The words "in him" clarify the parameters of whom God chose.

Allow me to illustrate:

I am planning on having a dinner for some homeless people at a location outside the city. This will involve a particular amount of logistics on my part. Normally, homeless people don't have cars. Hence, I must also provide these people with transportation. It is my desire to feed them at 6PM. The journey, by bus, will take about 55 minutes. Therefore, I must make sure any participants are in the bus at 5PM, and no later. I make signs stating that those people who are in the bus at 5PM will be taken to get a fee meal.

On the day of the event, my driver closes the door of the bus at 5PM, and takes those in the bus to their free meal.

However, the next day, I get complaints saying that people were left on the site where the bus was parked, and the bus left without taking other people who were present.

When asked, "Were you in the bus? the people replied, "No, but I was standing outside the bus talking". I would then ask, "Why weren't you in the bus"? The person complaining would reply, "I was waiting to be told the bus was ready".

My simple reply would be, "The sign stated that "those people who are in the bus at 5PM will be taken to get a fee meal". I had determined that, if people wanted a free meal, they would insure they would be "in the bus" at 5PM.

What I had determined to do prior to the event was to chose those in the bus at 5PM to receive the free meal.

Hence, when we read,

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

... we realize that it is those who accept being in Christ for their salvation, that God chose, before the foundation of the world, "that we should be holy and without blame before him in love".

Great post, Dr!!

I also focus on the "in Him". It's like a parenthesis, and it surely does set the parameters of who is chosen to be holy and blameless.

Also, Eph 1:19 defines who the "us" are in v.4.

and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength

It would make no sense for the "us" in v.4 to refer to different people than in v.19.

So, 1:4 basically says this:

For God chose us believers (who are in Him) from the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Don't miss the fact that the verses I showed are for believers to obey. And by "believers", I mean SAVED people. They are saved ALREADY.

Agreed, I made that point in post #238.

 

[St. Helens]

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[sungaunga]

It's certainly nothing in us. As that would leave the potential for boasting, whether one does or not is another issue.

Bible clearly teaches that it is God who opens heart to respond to His Word. "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?

Here is a point about predestination that settled it for me big time!
Here is the Scripture that turned the lights on for me:
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect. . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:1,2)

This also turned me around from my belief that God may not know every detail of the future (this is a complete reversal of my previous posts where I maintained that God does not know the future because it doesn't exist yet).

Now, If God knows the future, He knows beforehand who is going to choose for Christ and who is going to reject Him. This is where many get predestination and election wrong. They mistakenly say that God predestines and elects people to salvation and hardens others before they choose for or against Christ! That is not right at all!

When the gospel is presented and preached, people choose Christ or reject Him. At the time the gospel is preached, the invitation is open to all who hear it. When a person chooses to receive Christ, God has known that he or she would, from the foundation of the world. He also knows who rejects Christ. Therefore, (and this is the revelation that settled it for me) God elects for salvation those who have chosen Christ, after they have made the choice, not before.

Therefore, He hardens the hearts of those who reject Christ after they have made their choice. He knew that Pharaoh was going to harden his heart to what Moses was saying to him. Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go on the first instance, but God determined to bring judgment upon Egypt for the sins of Pharaoh. He wanted to chastise Egypt, so He hardened Pharaoh's heart so that His judgment on Egypt was complete, then He allowed Pharaoh to let the people go. The point is, that God knew beforehand that Pharaoh was going to harden his heart and so He made sure that the people of Israel knew beyond a shadow of doubt what would happen to anyone who resisted the Living God.

The fact that God knows who is going to choose for Christ from the foundation of the world, is amazing and humbling at the same time. If God elects specific people for salvation before they have an opportunity to choose to obey the gospel, what is the point of preaching it? None at all. That would mean for a person who is not elected they can just sit on the couch and wait for death so they will go to Hell. And for the person who is elected, they can do what they want, sin as much as they please, because they will go to heaven anyway. But this is not God's way.

So, the gospel is preached to sinners, and each person have the opportunity to choose for or reject Christ. God already knows who are going to choose for Christ so He has already elected them on the basis of His foreknowledge of their choice for Christ.

Knowing that, now I have no problem with election at all! It now all makes total sense!

 

[Hammster]

Therefore, (and this is the revelation that settled it for me) God elects for salvation those who have chosen Christ, after they have made the choice, not before.

It’s not God who chooses, then.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oscarr said: ↑
Therefore, (and this is the revelation that settled it for me) God elects for salvation those who have chosen Christ, after they have made the choice, not before.

It’s not God who chooses, then.

The error is that anyone thinks that God elects for salvation. He doesn't. And there are no verses that say that.

Election is for service, not salvation. Jesus Christ Himself is the Chosen One.

So, I challenge any Calvinist to provide any verse that says people are elected to salvation.

Scripture does tell us who God is pleased to save, though.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[Hammster]

This explains a lot.

Election by J. C. Ryle | Monergism

 

[FreeGrace2]

This explains a lot.

Election by J. C. Ryle | Monergism

This is Ryle's opinion of election:

"The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows. God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ. None are finally saved except those who are thus chosen."

Well, the Bible tells us something differently. There is no "secret counsel" by which God saves human beings.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

So we know that Ryle didn't know the Bible. God's choice for salvation is based on "those who believe". iow, He saves those who believe.

According to Ryle, God chooses who will believe then. Even if he never said those particular words. The Bible frequently states that salvation is by faith in Christ. It is no secret at all.

then Ryle said this:
"None ever repent, believe, and are born again, except the Elect." Except he cannot offer ANY verse that says anything close to his statement. It's only his own opinion.

So, let's examine the examples of who is called "elect" in the Bible:

Examples of Election

1. Election of Christ: Isa 42:1 "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.
Matt 12:18 "Behold, My Servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well-pleased; I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.
1 Peter 2:6 For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed."
2. Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
3. Election of Angels: 1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
4. Election of the Church or body of Christ: Eph 1:4a just as He chose us (believers) in Him…
5. Other elections:
Paul: Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
Apostles: John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you , and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

What do all of these examples have in common? All of these elections are for SERVICE, not for salvation.

In fact, it would be absurd to argue that any of the examples were chosen for salvation.

Christ? Angels? The entire nation of Israel? The body of Christ were chosen as believers, not to become believers. Eph 1:4. Even the 12 disciples/apostles weren't chosen for salvation, as John 6:70 very clearly indicates. Yes, Judas WAS chosen. He was chosen for service; as the betrayer.

Election is to service, not salvation.

I Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

Matt 12:18 - “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give His life a ransom for many (the masses).

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are My witnesses”, declares the Lord, “and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me.”

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 3:13 - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over to be killed, and you disowned Him before Pilate, though he had decided to let Him go.

Acts 3:20 - and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

Acts 4:30 - Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Acts 10:42 - He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

Eph 1:22 - And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Phil 2:7 - but made Himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Heb 2:17 - For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Heb 3:2 - He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.

Heb 3:2-6 compares Jesus with Moses as as faithful servant.

Heb 5:10 - God appointed him chief priest in the way Melchizedek was a priest.

Heb 7:28 - For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 8:3 - Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this One ((Jesus) also to have something to offer.

Heb 10:7 - Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”

II The original 12 apostles were chosen/appointed for service:

Mark 3:14 - He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach

John 6:70 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

III Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the gas of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

IV Angels were elected to service:

1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

I invite any Calvinist to address any of these verses that indicates that election is to salvation, rather than election.

I further invite any Calvinist to provide any verse that specifically says that election is to salvation.

 

[sungaunga]

The error is that anyone thinks that God elects for salvation. He doesn't. And there are no verses that say that.

It has always amazed me, people who profess to believe in the Bible likewise at the same time express incredible detestation for the God of the Bible. There’re so many people for various reasons wish to edit God, they wish to have only a God in essence they’re comfortable with. The fact of the matter is, the reason anyone ever comes to Jesus is because they were given to Jesus by God. Not the other way around. If you don’t come to Jesus, you were not given to HIm.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6

 

[Hammster]

According to Ryle, God chooses who will believe then. Even if he never said those particular words. The Bible frequently states that salvation is by faith in Christ. It is no secret at all.

Those aren’t contradictory statements. But to be clear, scripture states that we are justified by faith.

And to your other point, there are verses that state we are chosen for service. But that doesn’t contradict that there are also verses that show we are chosen unto salvation. Both are true. Just look at the verses Ryle posted and you’ll see that is true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I saId:
"The error is that anyone thinks that God elects for salvation. He doesn't. And there are no verses that say that."

It has always amazed me, people who profess to believe in the Bible likewise at the same time express incredible detestation for the God of the Bible.

From what I posted and you included in your post, could you do me the favor of showing me (and the thread) exactly HOW I've expressed "incredible detestation for the God of the Bible"? Hmm? Could you do that? This is as clear a flaming goad as can be. And from a mod, no less. Your statement is absurd to the hilt.

What I stated is a FACT. If otherwise, then all you'd have to do to prove that my statement was false is to provide just one verse that states that election is to salvation.

Instead, you lob a flaming goad in my direction. Interesting.

There’re so many people for various reasons wish to edit God, they wish to have only a God in essence they’re comfortable with. The fact of the matter is, the reason anyone ever comes to Jesus is because they were given to Jesus by God.

And I invite you to read the NEXT verse in John 6. Which is v.45, which tells us WHO comes to Jesus. Not what you seem to think.

Not the other way around. If you don’t come to Jesus, you were not given to HIm.

Just read the NEXT VERSE for context.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6

First, John 6:44 says NOTHING about being elected to salvation. That's just a very tight squint.

Let's view v.44 AND v.45 together, just for context. And kicks.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Do you see the point here? Who "comes to me"? Jesus tells us plainly.

Those who listened and learned from His Father. Hm. Sounds like free will. Not being chosen with some "secret motives" on God's part, as Ryle seemed to think.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"According to Ryle, God chooses who will believe then. Even if he never said those particular words. The Bible frequently states that salvation is by faith in Christ. It is no secret at all."

Those aren’t contradictory statements.

Everyone is free to form their own opinions.

But to be clear, scripture states that we are justified by faith.

Which is my point. "by faith" is a condition. Salvation is conditioned upon faith.

But Ryle doesn't believe your claim here. He said:
"The true doctrine of Election I believe to be as follows. God has been pleased from all eternity to choose certain men and women out of mankind, whom by His counsel secret to us, He has decreed to save by Jesus Christ."

The red words are false, and unbiblical. And don't agree with your words.

And to your other point, there are verses that state we are chosen for service.

Please address the examples I gave and show any that were chosen for salvation.

Further, please just provide any verse that says that election is to salvation.

But that doesn’t contradict that there are also verses that show we are chosen unto salvation. Both are true.

Where are your verses then? You can claim all you want, but I'm interested in actual verses.

Just look at the verses Ryle posted and you’ll see that is true.

Seriously?

He quoted 4 verses from Jesus. None said election was to salvation.
He quoted 6 from Paul. None said election was to salvation.
He quoted 2 from Peter. None said election was to salvation.

1 Pet 1:2 actually supports my claim; that election is to salvation.

Here it is: who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

A bit of color coding for clarity.

The red words state the purpose of election; "to be obedient". Which is service, not salvation.

The blue words should give Calvinists pause. Election is "according to God's foreknowledge". Notice that Peter didn't say "according to His sovereignty".

So far, neither Ryle nor you have provided ANY verse that teaches that election is to salvation.

Would you like to discuss 2 Thess 2:13?