Please explain if no one is predestined

[FreeGrace2]

We know that the elect are, um, elected, but without knowing their names it's a bit short-sighted IMO to say that it comes down to those who've believed-or at least think they’ve believed at some point.

This isn't about who thinks what. It's about what some have DONE; which is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm a bit taken aback about your saying "it's a bit short-sighted to say that it (salvation) comes down to those whove believed". Why would you say that?

This is what the Bible says:

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Please don't suggest that the Bible is short-sighted.

BTW, election isn't about who God chooses to save but who God chooses to serve Him. So, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to serve Him (be holy and blameless).

Those who've tasted of the heavenly gift (Heb 6), or those who're branches grafted in but later cut off (Rom 11), or those admonished in Scripture to refrain from sin and to be holy, since “without holiness no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12), certainly believed at some point. It would be rather silly for God to make it a one-time choice anyway, don’t you think?

Those who have spiritual discernment realise that these 3 passages aren't about loss of salvation in any sense or for any reason.

 

[BCsenior]

The primary definition of the word believer (pistós) also implies obedience or trustworthiness.

Sorry, where's the obedience?
To repeat myself ...
IMO, "pisteou" does NOT include this in the secular!
The word "pisteou" in the NT is a bit different ...
it must include obedience to reconcile other passages!

 

[BCsenior]

That’s what it means to be justified
by faith ... faith is the first gift offered, of many we may need to continuously accept as we work out our salvation together with He who works in us ...

Do you mean that we must work out
our salvation with fear and trembling?
Where would you ever come up with that idea?
I'm told here that God's grace is all we need!
It's called "hyper-grace" by those who are confused,
hopefully not unto (eternal) death ...
for the Lord desires that none should perish.
Problem is: they have free will, they're not robots, etc.

 

[fhansen]

Do you mean that we must work out
our salvation with fear and trembling?
Where would you ever come up with that idea?
I'm told here that God's grace is all we need!
It's called "hyper-grace" by those who are confused,
hopefully not unto (eternal) death ...
for the Lord desires that none should perish.
Problem is: they have free will, they're not robots, etc.

Yep, God's wholly trustworthy and true- while we're the wildcard in it all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry, where's the obedience?
To repeat myself ...
IMO, "pisteou" does NOT include this in the secular!
The word "pisteou" in the NT is a bit different ...
it must include obedience to reconcile other passages!

The definition I highlighted “used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul” implies both trust in God and a moral sense of right and wrong above and beyond what is acceptable by secular society that impels us to act in accordance of God’s commandments.

 

[BNR32FAN]

By Grace alone
Through Faith alone
In Christ alone
For the Glory of God alone
As revealed in Scripture alone

Works-righteousness need not apply.....

John 15:1-10, Matthew 25:31-46, and James 2:14-26 are just a few examples that refute salvation without works and obedience.

In John 15 Jesus warns His faithful 11 apostles of the consequences of failing to bear fruit and failing to abide in Him. The consequences being that such a person is cut off from the vine (Christ) cast away to wither, and cast into the fire to be burned. The definition of the word “cast” means to throw away without care or regard typically in a violent or intense manner. Jesus said this to His 11 faithful apostles who undoubtedly believed. He even says in His prayer at Gethsemane just moments after giving them this warning that they do not belong to this world.

Matthew 25:31-46 the goats are condemned for not showing love to others. They didn’t bear fruit, they didn’t abide in Christ. James 2:14-17 give a very similar message. Notice the similarities in the works James describes in verse 15. Again this has to do with being compassionate and loving others. A person who believes in Christ but is self centered, greedy, and doesn’t help those in need will not receive salvation.

 

[BCsenior]

Yep, God's wholly trustworthy
and true - while
we're the wildcard in it all.

You sure have that right! ... Congrats to you!
Remember all of those verses in the epistles
(not to ignore all of Jesus' warnings in the gospels)
about BACs being tested to see ...
IF they continue to remain in the faith!

And the Grand-daddy of 'em all ... to see who
refuses to submit to taking the mark of the beast.

Oh, I forgot, the testing is to see who gets rewards!
lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol

 

[BNR32FAN]

[Staff edit].

Read post 107 for proof that works are necessary for salvation. Just because they are necessary doesn’t mean that we are saved by works. We are saved by having the type of faith that produces works. It’s about love and compassion for others especially those in need. Refusing to help others is quenching the Spirit. You confuse the definition of the word justified. Just because someone has been made right with God doesn’t mean they can’t be made wrong with God again and just because a person believes in Jesus doesn’t mean they are a Christian. satan and demons believe in Jesus and yet they were cast out of heaven for their actions not their disbelief. Romans 11 says branches that are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again. John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not produce fruit. The goat’s in Matthew 25 were condemned for not bearing fruit and abiding in Christ. James 2:14 can that faith (without works) save him?

 

[FreeGrace2]

fhansen said: ↑
Yep, God's wholly trustworthy
and true - while
we're the wildcard in it all.

You sure have that right! ... Congrats to you!

How do you not understand that fhansen means that salvation is up to us. What else could he mean by "wildcard"?

Remember all of those verses in the epistles
(not to ignore all of Jesus' warnings in the gospels)
about BACs being tested to see ...
IF they continue to remain in the faith!

Yep, they are there.

Yet, NONE of them link continuing to remain in the faith to keeping one's salvation.

And the Grand-daddy of 'em all ... to see who
refuses to submit to taking the mark of the beast.

It's nothing more than a presupposition to claim that any believer will do that. So we need to quit fantasizing about that.

Further, by the time the mark of the beast is given, there will be ample time for God to 'glean' all his disobedient children from the earth, meaning there WON'T be any believers left to take the mark.

Oh, I forgot, the testing is to see who gets rewards!
lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol

Sure. Go ahead and keep ignoring God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) up to and including physical death for disobedient children.

God's warnings aren't just about loss of reward. It's about loss of health, finances, etc, all rolled up in 1 Cor 11:30.

 

[FreeGrace2]

[Staff edit].

Salvation is ONLY what God has done for mankind. It's His plan. Those who believe are saved and given eternal life and are born again, of imperishable seed.

Jesus said those (believers) He gives eternal life shall never perish.

You have added conditions that recipients of eternal life MUST DO in order to keep their salvation (never perish).

[Staff edit].

I'll give you a verse that directly refutes your unbiblical claim:

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

To summarize:
We are saved by grace, which is through faith
Our salvation is NOT from ourselves
Our salvation is the gift of God
We are NOT saved by works.

[Staff edit].

Just because they are necessary doesn’t mean that we are saved by works.

Please don't be so nonsensical. Of course it means EXACTLY THAT.

Works AREN'T necessary and we AREN'T saved by works.

We are saved by having the type of faith that produces works.

More opinion. What verse says this?

[Staff edit].

satan and demons believe in Jesus and yet they were cast out of heaven for their actions not their disbelief.

Ever heard about the phrase "apples and oranges"? Stop it.

Romans 11 says branches that are grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again. John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not produce fruit. The goat’s in Matthew 25 were condemned for not bearing fruit and abiding in Christ.

These metaphors speak to service, not salvation.

James 2:14 can that faith (without works) save him?

The only question is: saved from what? You choose to default to eternal soul salvation.

But that's only because you aren't interested in the context. The whole context of ch 2 is about being a hypocrite. Being inconsistent.

[Staff edit].

 

[Concord1968]

I watch as the Reformation gets turned on it's head

 

[FreeGrace2]

I watch as the Reformation gets turned on it's head

Where do you get that?

 

[Hammster]

ADVISOR HAT ON


Closed for review. This is a very sad example of how to act towards each other.


ADVISOR HAT OFF

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
No one is predestined to flame or goad or post disruptively,​

and staff will take a dim view of any further such contributions.​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Blade]

Phoebe.. God gave all of us the same measure of faith. Some work their faith most don't. So many WAIT till GOD FORBID something bad to happen and THEN try to believe God.. and in the end blame Him. There are over 5 thousand promises in Gods word. So.. FIATH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So..you read it you study it.. you BELIEVE if GOD said it HE WILL DO IT! You cant see it feel it.. FAITH! God ALWAYS keeps His word. We WORK our Faith.. again most don't.

Things in this life we can USE our faith..SMALL THINGS.. start small.. if its WRITTEN in GODS word HE WILL DO IT! And remember CHRIST is IN YOU! Talk to Him.. and in LUKE He said.. if you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit He will give it. So have you asked? THAT is what is written. Don't listen to me or ANYONE. JESUS IS REAL! He loves you He is in YOU! So.. ask HIM..tell Him what you don't under stand.. and then KNOW He hears you. Well the WORD says OT NT..GOD ALWAYS Hears the RIGHTEOUS..thats YOU! And .. HE DOES TALK! His SHEEP...Children.. KNOW His voice.

The holy spirit is the one that draws ANYONE EVERYONE to Christ. He does the pull.. but WE must make the choice. Jesus is not like ANYONE.. He loves you so MUCH.. He made EVERYTHING as if YOU were the only one that would ever believe. He made it ALL for you. He loves you... so.. if we KNOW He hears us we KNOW we have the petitions/prayers we asked for <---that's written..and HIS WILL? Is HIS WORD! Like the promise about PEACE...He said.. if YOU keep your mind on GOD He WILL keep you in perfect peace. Don't have to question it. just DO what HE said. And HE WILL Keep His Word. FEAR.. you say. NO Its written God has not given me the spirit of FEAR but of power and love and a sound mind.

JOY. the JOY of the lord is your strength.. ITS YOURS! To ALL that LOVE HIM! So.. read hear His word..and FIATH will come. Again.. its WRITTEN! One has to by FAITH believe. If you get STUCK as HIM! KNOW He hears you and HE WILL answer.

 

[Hammster]

God gave all of us the same measure of faith.

Where is that in scripture?

 

[BCsenior]

Some work their faith most don't.

Art thou talkin' about ...
"who fears him and works righteousness
is accepted by him." (Acts 10:35)

Who's "him" ... Satan?

 

[Rescued One]

Either one can reject the gift of faith.

Who causes person to reject faith?

 

[Rescued One]

Phoebe.. God gave all of us the same measure of faith. Some work their faith most don't. So many WAIT till GOD FORBID something bad to happen and THEN try to believe God.. and in the end blame Him. There are over 5 thousand promises in Gods word. So.. FIATH comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So..you read it you study it.. you BELIEVE if GOD said it HE WILL DO IT! You cant see it feel it.. FAITH! God ALWAYS keeps His word. We WORK our Faith.. again most don't.

A "measure of faith" isn't necessarily the SAME measure to each person.Nor does that verse say faith in whom or what. Some people have faith that they will feel rested tomorrow yet they have no faith in Christ. Missionaries share the gospel message with many who never come to faith.

Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Matthew 6
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for you30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

 

[fhansen]

Who causes person to reject faith?

That's where our will comes in. Without free will of created beings, no sin could exist