Please explain if no one is predestined

[sungaunga]

What? Choosing to believe in Christ causes the person to be born again and therefore regenerated by the Spirit. The choice to believe comes first, then the regeneration. Even a trained chimpanzee would interpret that verse that way!

Absolutely not true. John 6:44 starts with, "No one can come to me." Implication there being No man in his natural state can come to Jesus. Absolutely no one. You can hand him a Bible, stick it under his nose and it doesn’t make any difference. Not only does he not understand it, to him it’s all foolish. 1 Corinthians 2:14

While the sinner is in a state of hardness and rebellion, the Holy Spirit penetrates into the human will and performs the miracle of spiritual life, regeneration. That is what the Bible teaches. Faith does not precede regeneration, regeneration precedes faith. Read the verses below without the Arminian glasses.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions– it is by grace you have been saved" Ephesians 2:4-5

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:12-13

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

There are problems with all of this.

1) Paul is addressing believers that are living sin filled lives.
2) Paul literally calls them "carnal".
3). Roman's 8 points out the fact that despite the carnal behavior of things that happen in chapter 7, the believer can be assured he is not under condemnation. (OSAS)

Calvinism uses the terms unregenerate, and regenerated, but Scripture does not.

Sorry I lack the time to address your whole post, and with any real depth, but wanted to point out a few things.

1.) Yes, however it would be a mistaken notion to think Paul could not or did not write to them in terms of BOTH BEFORE and after conversion.

2.) Yes, a born again Christian can grieve the Spirit by walking not in faith, but in the "flesh", in "worldly" ways.

3.) Romans 7 and 8 so much content in both...so much could be pointed out...including federal headship in Adam and fallen human nature, the "natural man" without the Spirit of God in contrast with the spiritual man in Christ with the indwelling of the Spirit of God.

Christianity uses terms like Trinity, incarnation, hypostatic union, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenovolent, immutability, but Scripture does not. So what is your point?

 

[Dr. Jack]

Does the natural man understand spiritual things?

No, but the definition of the "natural man" is NOT what you say it is.

 

[Hammster]

No, but the definition of the "natural man" is NOT what you say it is.

It is in context.

 

[Dr. Jack]

It is in context.

The context is Paul writing to saved carnel people.

2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians

Paul is telling saved people that God reveals things by His Spirit.

2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians

Man knows the things of man, by the "spirit of man which is in him". And only God knows the things of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Corinthians

Notice, Paul is still talking to saved men.
There is a "spirit of the world" and a "spirit which is of God".

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians

The "things" here are the things of God that Paul is addressing ....

They are not in man's wisdom, but God's.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians

There has been NO mention at all of referring to lost men. NONE. This word is speaking of the physical man without the aid of the indwelling SPIRIT of God. NOT that God isn't indwelling, but that the man isn't submissive to the Spirit of God.

This is NOT comparing saved and lost, it is comparing carnal and spiritual.

That is precisely why the next chaper begins with,

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1 Corinthians

In the original epistle (without chapter divisions) this is very much the context.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1 Corinthians

Here is the other half of the comparison.

So we have the following ...

1) Paul says, there is the natural man
2) there is the spiritual man
3) you are the carnal man
4) NOT the spiritual man.

"for I "COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO YOU AS SPIRITUAL"

That is the context.

 

[Hammster]

The context is Paul writing to saved carnel people.

2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians

Paul is telling saved people that God reveals things by His Spirit.

2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians

Man knows the things of man, by the "spirit of man which is in him". And only God knows the things of God.

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Corinthians

Notice, Paul is still talking to saved men.
There is a "spirit of the world" and a "spirit which is of God".

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians

The "things" here are the things of God that Paul is addressing ....

They are not in man's wisdom, but God's.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians

There has been NO mention at all of referring to lost men. NONE. This word is speaking of the physical man without the aid of the indwelling SPIRIT of God. NOT that God isn't indwelling, but that the man isn't submissive to the Spirit of God.

This is NOT comparing saved and lost, it is comparing carnal and spiritual.

That is precisely why the next chaper begins with,

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 1 Corinthians

In the original epistle (without chapter divisions) this is very much the context.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1 Corinthians

Here is the other half of the comparison.

So we have the following ...

1) Paul says, there is the natural man
2) there is the spiritual man
3) you are the carnal man
4) NOT the spiritual man.

"for I "COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO YOU AS SPIRITUAL"

That is the context.

Every letter Paul wrote was to saved people.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Every letter Paul wrote was to saved people.

Yes, but the context of 1 Corinthians was their carnality. They weren't spiritual ... because they were submitting to there physical desires, rather than what God wanted for them.

The bottom line is, when we do not submit to the Spirit of God, we are not spiritual.

Allow me to illustrate ...

With the naked eye we can only see at a particular range. However, with the aid of either the microscope, or the telescope, we can see that which is otherwise impossible.

Hence, even if you have both a microscope, and a telescope in your possession, but choose not to use them, you are limited to your natural abilities.

So it is with the Spirit of God as well ... when the Corinthians chose to ignore the Spirit of God which in dwelled them, they had no power except that of the natural man. Hence, they were carnal, and not spiritual.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, but the context of 1 Corinthians was their carnality. They weren't spiritual ... because they were submitting to there physical desires, rather than what God wanted for them.

The bottom line is, when we do not submit to the Spirit of God, we are not spiritual.

Allow me to illustrate ...

With the naked eye we can only see at a particular range. However, with the aid of either the microscope, or the telescope, we can see that which is otherwise impossible.

Hence, even if you have both a microscope, and a telescope in your possession, but choose not to use them, you are limited to your natural abilities.

So it is with the Spirit of God as well ... when the Corinthians chose to ignore the Spirit of God which in dwelled them, they had no power except that of the natural man. Hence, they were carnal, and not spiritual.

You completely missed the context. It’s not a riddle to be solved. Just take it at face value.

 

[Dr. Jack]

You completely missed the context. It’s not a riddle to be solved. Just take it at face value.

If it meant unregenerated, and regenerated, why didn't it just say so?

 

[Hammster]

If it meant unregenerated, and regenerated, why didn't it just say so?

I don’t know why it would be necessary.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Absolutely not true. John 6:44 starts with, "No one can come to me." Implication there being No man in his natural state can come to Jesus. Absolutely no one. You can hand him a Bible, stick it under his nose and it doesn’t make any difference. Not only does he not understand it, to him it’s all foolish. 1 Corinthians 2:14

While the sinner is in a state of hardness and rebellion, the Holy Spirit penetrates into the human will and performs the miracle of spiritual life, regeneration. That is what the Bible teaches. Faith does not precede regeneration, regeneration precedes faith. Read the verses below without the Arminian glasses.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions– it is by grace you have been saved" Ephesians 2:4-5

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:12-13

It is the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit that makes the person aware of their own sinfulness and that they are subject to the wrath of God against sin. Paul says, "How will they hear without a preacher? And how will a preacher preach unless he is sent?" In other words, a person can preach the gospel, and without the Holy Spirit working through his preaching, can achieve nothing. But a preacher sent of God and empowered by the Holy Spirit is able to have the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through him to bring conviction of sin to his unconverted hearers. It is the preacher who is filled with the Holy Spirit in this respect, not the hearer. Once coming under conviction of sin, the hearer has a choice, accept Jesus or reject Him. One the hearer has made the choice to accept Jesus as his Saviour, the Holy Spirit causes him to be born again, regenerated, and filled with the Spirit.

 

[sungaunga]

It is the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit that makes the person aware of their own sinfulness and that they are subject to the wrath of God against sin. Paul says, "How will they hear without a preacher? And how will a preacher preach unless he is sent?" In other words, a person can preach the gospel, and without the Holy Spirit working through his preaching, can achieve nothing. But a preacher sent of God and empowered by the Holy Spirit is able to have the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking through him to bring conviction of sin to his unconverted hearers. It is the preacher who is filled with the Holy Spirit in this respect, not the hearer.

What you're describing is the means God uses to draw His people. Faith comes by hearing and responding positively to the word of God, which is the result of the drawing of God. A man in his natural state can not respond positively to the things of God. Again, John 6:44 states no man can come to Him. No one. What you're doing is stating the exact opposite of John's proclamation. You don't come to Jesus and are then drawn by Him. It's the drawing that results in the coming. You are drawn, then you come.

Acts 16:14 Lydia was listening, whose heart the Lord opened to respond to the things spoken by Paul

What came first. The opening of the heart or the responding of Lydia. You certainly wouldn't say How dare God opened her Heart without her permission. This is why I believe all Arminians are closet Calvinists.

Once coming under conviction of sin, the hearer has a choice, accept Jesus or reject Him. One the hearer has made the choice to accept Jesus as his Saviour, the Holy Spirit causes him to be born again, regenerated, and filled with the Spirit.

1 John 5:1 tells us clearly, and boldly that regeneration precedes faith.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

Whoever believes (believes in Greek is an ongoing participle) that Jesus is the Christ is born (born in Greek is a perfect tense verb, meaning it;s a completed action in the past that has abiding results in the present) of God

You are blinded by your Arminian traditions Oscar. God doesn't need our puny permissions to save us.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What you're describing is the means God uses to draw His people. Faith comes by hearing and responding positively to the word of God, which is the result of the drawing of God. A man in his natural state can not respond positively to the things of God. Again, John 6:44 states no man can come to Him. No one. What you're doing is stating the exact opposite of John's proclamation. You don't come to Jesus and are then drawn by Him. It's the drawing that results in the coming. You are drawn, then you come.

Acts 16:14 Lydia was listening, whose heart the Lord opened to respond to the things spoken by Paul

What came first. The opening of the heart or the responding of Lydia. You certainly wouldn't say How dare God opened her Heart without her permission. This is why I believe all Arminians are closet Calvinists.



1 John 5:1 tells us clearly, and boldly that regeneration precedes faith.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

Whoever believes (believes in Greek is an ongoing participle) that Jesus is the Christ is born (born in Greek is a perfect tense verb, meaning it;s a completed action in the past that has abiding results in the present) of God

You are blinded by your Arminian traditions Oscar. God doesn't need our puny permissions to save us.

So you don't believe that natural man has the power of choice over anything? How were you able to receive Christ if you did not choose to believe the gospel? How do you know that you are actually elected? You might not be, and your faith may be in vain, because God has already predestined you to be apostate whether you chose to believe the gospel or not!

By the way, I am not Arminian. My doctrinal foundation is Puritan Calvinist, but I have a brain and worked out that in order to achieve election one must choose to believe the gospel first.

If you don't have the power of choice about what you want or not want to believe then you are a mindless robot.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I don’t know why it would be necessary.

It would have something to do with the Scripture saying what it means .... and it doesn't say unregenerate, or regenerated. Those are Calvinistic terms, not Biblical terms. Once again, let Scripture interpret Scripture.

15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Corinthians

Same English word ... Same Greek word.

The Scripture defines the Scripture.

 

[Dr. Jack]

What you're describing is the means God uses to draw His people. Faith comes by hearing and responding positively to the word of God, which is the result of the drawing of God. A man in his natural state can not respond positively to the things of God. Again, John 6:44 states no man can come to Him. No one. What you're doing is stating the exact opposite of John's proclamation. You don't come to Jesus and are then drawn by Him. It's the drawing that results in the coming. You are drawn, then you come.

Acts 16:14 Lydia was listening, whose heart the Lord opened to respond to the things spoken by Paul

What came first. The opening of the heart or the responding of Lydia. You certainly wouldn't say How dare God opened her Heart without her permission. This is why I believe all Arminians are closet Calvinists.



1 John 5:1 tells us clearly, and boldly that regeneration precedes faith.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

Whoever believes (believes in Greek is an ongoing participle) that Jesus is the Christ is born (born in Greek is a perfect tense verb, meaning it;s a completed action in the past that has abiding results in the present) of God

You are blinded by your Arminian traditions Oscar. God doesn't need our puny permissions to save us.

Addressing John 6:44

Did Jesus forget John 6:44 when proclaiming John 12:32?

Was Jesus not thinking of what He would say in John 6:44 when speaking to Nicodemus in John 3?

All Scripture must fit together.

 

[Hammster]

Those are Calvinistic terms, not Biblical

You need a new bible, then.

 

[Hammster]

Did Jesus forget John 6:44 when proclaiming John 12:32?

No. But “all” doesn’t always mean “everyone”.

 

[sungaunga]

So you don't believe that natural man has the power of choice over anything? How were you able to receive Christ if you did not choose to believe the gospel? How do you know that you are actually elected? You might not be, and your faith may be in vain, because God has already predestined you to be apostate whether you chose to believe the gospel or not!

Facepalm... Where did i say we had no choice. Folks, this is a prime example of eisegesis. Right here.

By the way, I am not Arminian. My doctrinal foundation is Puritan Calvinist, but I have a brain and worked out that in order to achieve election one must choose to believe the gospel first.

Oscar, the reality is, your theology functions synergistically and at the end of the day, you are an Arminian, whether you like it or not.

If you don't have the power of choice about what you want or not want to believe then you are a mindless robot.

Facepalm..

I digress for the weekend. Have a good weekend Oscar lol.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Facepalm... Where did i say we had no choice. Folks, this is a prime example of eisegesis. Right here.
Oscar, the reality is, your theology functions synergistically and at the end of the day, you are an Arminian, whether you like it or not.

Facepalm..

I digress for the weekend. Have a good weekend Oscar lol.

I am having a good weekend, and having fun here on CF, corresponding with you and others. This is what makes CF interesting. It would be boring if we all agreed with each other!

So, what's the difference between believing what is written about Jesus in the gospels, and believing that your car needs petrol when the gauge reads empty? None really. Because you believe your car needs petrol, you would choose to go to the service station and fill up. So, you pick up a Bible, read it, believe it and receive Christ as your Saviour. So, what's the difference? Really?

Hey! Go to the service station and your car gets filled up with petrol.
Receive Christ and you get filled with the Holy Spirit! hahahahahaha!

 

[Dr. Jack]

You need a new bible, then.

Can you show me a Bible uses unregenerate, and regenerated in 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 15?