Please explain if no one is predestined

[FreeGrace2]

You said “What they believe (verb) is their faith (noun)”

That means what they believe in (have faith in) is their faith. You made the object of faith their faith.

I just didn’t know what you meant by that.

Clearly, you didn't understand a thing about my post.

When I use 'faith' as a noun, I am referring to what is believed. In this discussion, that would refer to the Christian faith.

Never a reference to 'faith' without an object, as you are insinuating.

In post #256, I also said this, which you haven't addressed yet:

"All 'faith' requires an object. There is no such thing as "faith in faith". That's just putting words together that have no meaning.

I was distinguishing between the verb (action) with the noun (subject). I'm sorry I can't boil it down further to make it easier to understand.

When a person trusts, believes in Christ, that is an action toward an object, being Christ.

All that Jesus did for us is what we are believing to be true.

Do you understand the difference between an action and a noun? That's key to following this discussion. Too many people use 'faith' as a verb when they should be using it as a noun."

Are you able to address any of these points, or do you still not understand any of them?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Just as there are NO verses that explain the Trinity, there are NO verses that show that regeneration is before faith. Thanks for making my point.

It’s only your point if you don’t believe in the Trinity. I hope that’s not the case.

I'm really amazed at how much you seem to fail to understand what I post.

Are there any verses that explain the Trinity? No, there aren't. But that doesn't mean, nor did I even suggest, that the Trinity isn't true just because of that.

My point was clear, in spite of how badly you misunderstood. There are no verses that teach that regeneration is before faith.

btw, this was also ignored:

"1.Calvinism cannot prove that regeneration precedes believing.
2.Calvinism cannot prove that man is unable to believe prior to regeneration.
3.Calvinism cannot prove that Christ died only for a small group of humanity.
4.Calvinism cannot prove that a saved person cannot apostatize.
5.Calvinism cannot prove that election is to salvation.
iow, Calvinism cannot prove its many claims."

I can provide verses that actually REFUTE these empty claims.

#1 - Eph 2:5 an 8 clearly equate regeneration with being saved, and salvation is from faith, which obviously occurs first.

#2 Twice in Acts we read of men "refusing to believe" and 3 times in Revelation we read of people "refusing to repent". In order to refuse to do something, one MUST BE ABLE to do it. This proves that unbelieving man is FREE to accept or reject the gospel.

#3 Scripture is clear that Christ died for all. 2 Cor 5:14,15, Heb 2:9, 1 John 2:2.

#4 No verses that state that election is to salvation. And many verses that state that election is to service.

 

[Hammster]

Are there any verses that explain the Trinity? No, there aren't. But that doesn't mean, nor did I even suggest, that the Trinity isn't true just because of that.

And that would be my point. Just as there’s no verses that explain the Trinity, there are no verses that state, as you seem to want as proof, that regeneration precedes faith. Does that mean we deny the Trinity? Of course not. And it’s not a reason to deny that regeneration precedes faith, either.

 

[Dr. Jack]

And that would be my point. Just as there’s no verses that explain the Trinity, there are no verses that state, as you seem to want as proof, that regeneration precedes faith. Does that mean we deny the Trinity? Of course not. And it’s not a reason to deny that regeneration precedes faith, either.

Okay you just stated above ...

And that would be my point. Just as there’s no verses that explain the Trinity, there are no verses that state, as you seem to want as proof, that regeneration precedes faith.

There ARE verses that state that regeneration IS salvation. As FreeGrace2 (and I'm not calling him out, I'm merely showing what he said just a few posts ago)

#1 - Eph 2:5 an 8 clearly equate regeneration with being saved, and salvation is from faith, which obviously occurs first.

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians

And I have presented Titus 3:5

3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus

This verse actually states that "he saved us, by the washing of regeneration". It doesn't get any clearer.

That is like saying, He saved the car from going over the cliff, by attaching a chain to it, that was attached to a tree.

The "by attaching a chain to it, that was attached to a tree" explains how he saved the car.

"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration" tells us God saved us by "the washing of regeneration".

Hence, salvation and regeneration are one in the same. AND, as seen above, God takes us from having dead souls, to living souls through faith.

That means that faith precedes regeneration. I have spelled this out numerous times.

 

[Hammster]

Okay you just stated above ...


There ARE verses that state that regeneration IS salvation. As FreeGrace2 (and I'm not calling him out, I'm merely showing what he said just a few posts ago)



2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians

And I have presented Titus 3:5

3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus

This verse actually states that "he saved us, by the washing of regeneration". It doesn't get any clearer.

That is like saying, He saved the car from going over the cliff, by attaching a chain to it, that was attached to a tree.

The "by attaching a chain to it, that was attached to a tree" explains how he saved the car.

"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration" tells us God saved us by "the washing of regeneration".

Hence, salvation and regeneration are one in the same. AND, as seen above, God takes us from having dead souls, to living souls through faith.

That means that faith precedes regeneration. I have spelled this out numerous times.

3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:3-7

Justification comes after regeneration. And we are justified by faith.

I love Titus 3.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And that would be my point. Just as there’s no verses that explain the Trinity, there are no verses that state, as you seem to want as proof, that regeneration precedes faith. Does that mean we deny the Trinity? Of course not.

But there's a huge difference. The Trinity is CLEARLY seen in all the verses that specifically mentions the Father as God, the Son, Jesus Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit as God. Only a fool would miss the obvious.

otoh, there is NO EVIDENCE in Scripture for regeneration before faith.

And, on the contrary, Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly demonstrate that regeneration and being saved are synonymous, and that salvation is through faith, so that means so is regeneration.

And it’s not a reason to deny that regeneration precedes faith, either.

Oh, yes it is. No evidence for your claim, and clear evidence for the truth that faith precedes salvation and regeneration.

 

[FreeGrace2]

3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:3-7

Justification comes after regeneration. And we are justified by faith.

I love Titus 3.

Amazing. Sure, justification, salvation and regeneration all come by faith.

Thanks for noticing.

 

[Hammster]

Amazing. Sure, justification, salvation and regeneration all come by faith.

Thanks for noticing.

That’s not what the passage says.

 

[Hammster]

But there's a huge difference. The Trinity is CLEARLY seen in all the verses that specifically mentions the Father as God, the Son, Jesus Christ as God, and the Holy Spirit as God. Only a fool would miss the obvious.

otoh, there is NO EVIDENCE in Scripture for regeneration before faith.

And, on the contrary, Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly demonstrate that regeneration and being saved are synonymous, and that salvation is through faith, so that means so is regeneration.


Oh, yes it is. No evidence for your claim, and clear evidence for the truth that faith precedes salvation and regeneration.

Ephesians 2 teaches regeneration prior to faith. A prima facia reading shows it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That’s not what the passage says.

I never said it did. I was noting that justification, regeneration and salvation all follow faith.

 

[Hammster]

I never said it did. I was noting that justification, regeneration and salvation all follow faith.

Nothing about faith preceding regeneration in that passage.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 2 teaches regeneration prior to faith. A prima facia reading shows it.

Why haven't you addressed my several explanations of how Eph 2:5 and 8 demonstrate that both regeneration and salvation are synonymous and both are through faith.

That means regeneration follows faith, just as salvation does.

So, in fact, a prima facia reading of ch 2 shows that faith precedes regeneration.

I explained it. All you've done is make a claim to the contrary.

Until you provide a clear explanation for your view, there's no reason to take your word for your opinion.

The comment about Eph 2 is way too vague. Please provide specifics, as I did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nothing about faith preceding regeneration in that passage.

Do you deny that 2:5 equates "being made alive" with "being saved"?

If so, please explain why, since it seems so very obvious.

 

[Dr. Jack]

3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. - Titus 3:3-7

Justification comes after regeneration. And we are justified by faith.

I love Titus 3.

Okay, let me do it this way.

1.God gives us the witness of creation that He exists. Romans 1

2. God also can choose to allow the path of a lost person, who recognizes there is a creator, to cross paths with a believer.

3. The believer then preaches to the lost person who already acknowledges there is a creator.

4. The HS bears witness to the spirit of the lost person that what is being preached is truth.

5. The lost person then realizes that A. he is lost; and B. he cannot save himself.

6. The lost person then repents (stops believing in his ability to be okay with his Creator, to by faith, believing that only God can save him.

7. Immediately upon the lost man repenting, God A. recognizes his repentance by faith, (which again was brought on by the HS witnessing to him through his spirit); B. regenerates the lost soul; C. justifies the lost soul; D. seals the soul that He has just instantaneously regenerated, and justified; and E. places the soul of that man in Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Why haven't you addressed my several explanations of how Eph 2:5 and 8 demonstrate that both regeneration and salvation are synonymous and both are through faith.

That means regeneration follows faith, just as salvation does.

So, in fact, a prima facia reading of ch 2 shows that faith precedes regeneration.

I explained it. All you've done is make a claim to the contrary.

Until you provide a clear explanation for your view, there's no reason to take your word for your opinion.

The comment about Eph 2 is way too vague. Please provide specifics, as I did.

All you have to do is read it at face value.

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:1-5

We were dead. He made us alive.

It’s simple. No gymnastics required.

 

[Hammster]

Do you deny that 2:5 equates "being made alive" with "being saved"?

If so, please explain why, since it seems so very obvious.

Being made alive equals regeneration. No faith required. You need to stop using “salvation” or “being saved” in such a generic sense. State what you are referring to. Regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, let me do it this way.

1.God gives us the witness of creation that He exists. Romans 1

2. God also can choose to allow the path of a lost person, who recognizes there is a creator, to cross paths with a believer.

3. The believer then preaches to the lost person who already acknowledges there is a creator.

4. The HS bears witness to the spirit of the lost person that what is being preached is truth.

5. The lost person then realizes that A. he is lost; and B. he cannot save himself.

6. The lost person then repents (stops believing in his ability to be okay with his Creator, to by faith, believing that only God can save him.

7. Immediately upon the lost man repenting, God A. recognizes his repentance by faith, (which again was brought on by the HS witnessing to him through his spirit); B. regenerates the lost soul; C. justifies the lost soul; D. seals the soul that He has just instantaneously regenerated, and justified; and E. places the soul of that man in Christ.

I have no idea how we got to Romans 1 from Titus 3.

 

[Dr. Jack]

It

I have no idea how we got to Romans 1 from Titus 3.

shows that God reveals, and shows Himself to lost people.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

Look at the words that show God revealing Himself to the lost man.

the wrath of God is revealed
who hold the truth in unrighteousness

that which may be known of God
is manifest in them
for God hath shewed it unto them

the invisible things of him from the creation
of the world are clearly seen

even his eternal power and Godhead
so that they are without excuse
NOTE: Remember, this is the ungodly

Because that, when they knew God
they glorified him not as God



I want you to understand what God did to get people to see Him.

God so surrounds us with the witness of creation, that we cannot avoid seeing His glory. God has so filled His creation with greatness, that even the ungodly cannot escape its greatness.

The lost man need not "search" for God to find Him; for God hath clearly chosen to not only reveal Himself to man, but in the incarnation He chose to pursue man that He could be his Redemer.

 

[Hammster]

It

shows that God reveals, and shows Himself to lost people.

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

Look at the words that show God revealing Himself to the lost man.

the wrath of God is revealed
who hold the truth in unrighteousness

that which may be known of God
is manifest in them
for God hath shewed it unto them

the invisible things of him from the creation
of the world are clearly seen

even his eternal power and Godhead
so that they are without excuse
NOTE: Remember, this is the ungodly

Because that, when they knew God
they glorified him not as God



I want you to understand what God did to get people to see Him.

God so surrounds us with the witness of creation, that we cannot avoid seeing His glory. God has so filled His creation with greatness, that even the ungodly cannot escape its greatness.

The lost man need not "search" for God to find Him; for God hath clearly chosen to not only reveal Himself to man, but in the incarnation He chose to pursue man that He could be his Redemer.

Does the natural man understand spiritual things?

 

[FreeGrace2]

All you have to do is read it at face value.

Once again you have totally ignored all my points about v.5.

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:1-5

We were dead. He made us alive.

It’s simple. No gymnastics required.

Yes, it's real simple.

Now, please answer this simple question about v.5.

Did Paul equate "being made alive" (regeneration) with "being saved", or not?

If not, explain how the 2 phrases relate, or not.

Until this is answered, you are not even trying to engage the discussion.