Please explain if no one is predestined

[Hammster]

But Nicodemus wasn't His disciple.

I know. So how much more would it be true.

 

[Dr. Jack]

I know. So how much more would it be true.

Here is their problem. The Rabbi's were so proud of there supposed 'outward' obedience to the Law, that they completely missed the real purpose of the Law. To them, salvation was via, obedience to the Law, hence, salvation through their OWN self righteousness.

Everything about the feasts, and everything about the tabernacle pointed to Messiah, and HIS righteousnesses saving us. That is what salvation always was about. Stop relying on yourself, and put your trust in Messiah.

The history of the Israelites was full of God continuously showing them it was NOT by their power, but by His.

Nicodemus couldn't understand what Jesus was saying because he was locked into a line of thinking that only allowed HIS OWN self righteousness to deliver him.

As Jesus spoke of being born of the Spirit, it was so far from what Nicodemus had both been taught, and was now teaching, that he asked,

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? John

What was Nicodemus asking?

He was looking for a way to take the words of Jesus seriously, and figure out how he could (AGAIN), by his OWN power, be born again.

That is why, when Jesus said,

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John

The only reply Nicodemus could have was ...

3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? John

God doesn't just turn on our mind through regeneration, He wants us to think.

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

God wants us to REASON with Him and see that we cannot save ourselves, we must rely on Him for salvation. Hence the reason for taking Nicodemus to Numbers ... He wanted Nicodemus to think about what happened. How the people had THEIR solution, but God had His solution.

Nicodemus would then be able to see, the people were powerless to do anything to save themselves.

Looking was brought about by faith. If we don't believe inwardly, we won't act inwardly, or outwardly. But the outward action of the body only occurs AFTER there is an inward act of faith.

Now let me take this up a notch.

Why did Nicodemus even come to God?

3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. John

The teaching of Jesus had stirred some attention among the Rabbis. Hence, we see that the Father used the teaching of Jesus to draw people to Jesus. (Was not Nicodemus drawn to Jesus because of the teaching that Jesus had already done?)

There was an active work going on in the heart of Nicodemus because of hearing Jesus preach and teach.

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

The interesting thing about this narrative is that Nicodemus trusted that WHAT Jesus said was truth, but because of clinging to his own teaching, could not understand what Jesus meant by what He said.

By Jesus going back to Numbers, Nicodemus could then begin to see the people were trusting in their solution to the problem; but God showing them that they must relinquish their solution; and adopt God's solution. It matters not whether they understood how God's solution worked, it was only a matter of trusting God.

But God said,

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: John

God took that event, and said, Nicodemus, in the same manner that the people had to relinquish their solution to their problem; Nicodemus had to relinquish what he believed, and accept God's plan of salvation for him.

 

[Hammster]

Here is their problem. The Rabbi's were so proud of there supposed 'outward' obedience to the Law, that they completely missed the real purpose of the Law. To them, salvation was via, obedience to the Law, hence, salvation through their OWN self righteousness.

Everything about the feasts, and everything about the tabernacle pointed to Messiah, and HIS righteousnesses saving us. That is what salvation always was about. Stop relying on yourself, and put your trust in Messiah.

The history of the Israelites was full of God continuously showing them it was NOT by their power, but by His.

Nicodemus couldn't understand what Jesus was saying because he was locked into a line of thinking that only allowed HIS OWN self righteousness to deliver him.

As Jesus spoke of being born of the Spirit, it was so far from what Nicodemus had both been taught, and was now teaching, that he asked,

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? John

What was Nicodemus asking?

He was looking for a way to take the words of Jesus seriously, and figure out how he could (AGAIN), by his OWN power, be born again.

That is why, when Jesus said,

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John

The only reply Nicodemus could have was ...

3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? John

God doesn't just turn on our mind through regeneration, He wants us to think.

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah

God wants us to REASON with Him and see that we cannot save ourselves, we must rely on Him for salvation. Hence the reason for taking Nicodemus to Numbers ... He wanted Nicodemus to think about what happened. How the people had THEIR solution, but God had His solution.

Nicodemus would then be able to see, the people were powerless to do anything to save themselves.

Looking was brought about by faith. If we don't believe inwardly, we won't act inwardly, or outwardly. But the outward action of the body only occurs AFTER there is an inward act of faith.

Now let me take this up a notch.

Why did Nicodemus even come to God?

3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. John

The teaching of Jesus had stirred some attention among the Rabbis. Hence, we see that the Father used the teaching of Jesus to draw people to Jesus. (Was not Nicodemus drawn to Jesus because of the teaching that Jesus had already done?)

There was an active work going on in the heart of Nicodemus because of hearing Jesus preach and teach.

10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans

The interesting thing about this narrative is that Nicodemus trusted that WHAT Jesus said was truth, but because of clinging to his own teaching, could not understand what Jesus meant by what He said.

By Jesus going back to Numbers, Nicodemus could then begin to see the people were trusting in their solution to the problem; but God showing them that they must relinquish their solution; and adopt God's solution. It matters not whether they understood how God's solution worked, it was only a matter of trusting God.

But God said,

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: John

God took that event, and said, Nicodemus, in the same manner that the people had to relinquish their solution to their problem; Nicodemus had to relinquish what he believed, and accept God's plan of salvation for him.

Okay.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Okay.

So how exactly does that fit into regeneration preceding faith?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

God took that event, and said, Nicodemus, in the same manner that the people had to relinquish their solution to their problem; Nicodemus had to relinquish what he believed, and accept God's plan of salvation for him.

Interesting, I missed that part in the Biblical text. Instead I read Scriptures such as:

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

and Scriptures such as..

1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.


To accept God's plan of salvation by faith before regeneration, is to first love Him, is it not?

 

[Hammster]

So how exactly does that fit into regeneration preceding faith?

It doesn’t. It was just a bunch of nonsense. And I’ve explained it with every verse and passage you’ve presented. I don’t see the need to continue.

 

[Hammster]

Interesting, I missed that part in the Biblical text. Instead I read Scriptures such as:

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

and Scriptures such as..

1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.


To accept God's plan of salvation by faith before regeneration, is to first love Him, is it not?

That’s exactly what it means. And that’s logically (not to mention scripturally) unsound. It makes regeneration of no importance.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

That’s exactly what it means. And that’s logically (not to mention scripturally) unsound. It makes regeneration of no importance.

I remember 1 John 4:19 hitting me like a lightening bolt.

...and C.H. Spurgeon's "Arminian Prayer" like a sledge hammer.

All in a most humbling, good, and Holy way.

I am reminded of other verses like:

Acts 22:14 “Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.

and the words of our Lord:

John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Instead of "Who Made Who", it should be "Who [first] Chose Who", and the Scriptures are clear on this point, over and over, but somehow the point passed over me for so many years. Pray the Lord would give us all more clarity, in all of our interpretations both inside and outside of Scripture. In Jesus name, Amen.

 

[sungaunga]

So how exactly does that fit into regeneration preceding faith?

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Regeneration precedes faith. Agreed? Good.

 

[Hammster]

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

 

[Dr. Jack]

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Regeneration precedes faith. Agreed? Good.

Is it your normal fashion to ask a question, then proceed to answer your own question, then proceed to acknowledge your own answer?

 

[Dr. Jack]

That’s exactly what it means. And that’s logically (not to mention scripturally) unsound. It makes regeneration of no importance.

Would you please define the "natural" man?

 

[Dr. Jack]

Interesting, I missed that part in the Biblical text. Instead I read Scriptures such as:

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

and Scriptures such as..

1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.


To accept God's plan of salvation by faith before regeneration, is to first love Him, is it not?

This was meant for you ...

Could you please define the "natural" man?

 

[Hammster]

Would you please define the "natural" man?

1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[Dr. Jack]

1 Corinthians 2:14

The text says the "natural man" ... but you must now DEFINE what the "natural man" is.

 

[Hammster]

The text says the "natural man" ... but you must now DEFINE what the "natural man" is.

No, I don’t. You need to answer the question I asked.

 

[Dr. Jack]

No, I don’t. You need to answer the question I asked.

What question?

 

[Dr. Jack]

No, I don’t. You need to answer the question I asked.

So when you CAN'T answer you tell just say you did. There is no Scripture that states that regeneration proceeds faith ... not one.

 

[sungaunga]

So when you CAN'T answer you tell just say you did. There is no Scripture that states that regeneration proceeds faith ... not one.

When your traditions are so strong, that you can be staring at the words, and don't see it. This is what lenses of traditions do to Scripture. I provided 1 John 5:1 to which you replied with ad hominem.

 

[Hammster]

What question?

Please explain if no one is predestined