Patristic Evidence for the Early Date of Revelation

timtams

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Irenaeus (c. 185)

Irenaeus claims that at the time of the writing of John’s Gospel, Cerinthus was actively disseminating his teachings, which the Nicolaitans had also disseminated “a long time previously” (Haer. 3.11.1). Elsewhere Irenaeus states that the Nicolaitans were active at the time of the writing of Revelation (Haer. 1.26.3), suggesting that he also placed the writing of Revelation “a long time previously” to the writing of the Gospel.

Irenaeus likely placed Cerinthus (who was, according to him, contemporary with the publication of John’s Gospel) at the end of the first century, since he relates that he was known by Polycarp (Haer. 3.3.4), who was martyred in the mid second century. Thus:

  • Time of Cerinthus = end of first century = time of John’s Gospel
  • Time of Nicolaitans = “a long time previous” to Cerinthus = time of Revelation
More on the Nicolaitans

According to Eusebius, the Nicolaitans “subsisted for a very short time” (Hist. eccl. 3.29.1). The chapter also notes that according to Hippolytus, Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17–18) were following the teaching of Nicolas, the founder of the sect (De resurr. fr. 1); these two were active in Asia at the end of Paul’s life (i.e. during Nero’s reign).

If this represented a common tradition, then Irenaeus would have placed the Nicolaitans—and Revelation—in the 60s and Cerinthus—and the Gospel of John—in the 90s of the common era.

He was Seen

Irenaeus is often believed to have claimed that the apocalyptic vision was seen (ἑωράθη) by John at the end of Domitian’s reign (προς τῷ τέλει τῆς Δομετιανοῦ ἀρχῆς). This passage was discussed in Chapter 6.

The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to Luke (c. 190)

This second century work, while not direct evidence for the early date, does claim that “John first wrote Revelation in the island of Patmos, and afterwards the Gospel (Latin adds: “in Asia”), which is consistent with the evidence of Irenaeus discussed above.

Tertullian (c. 205)

Tertullian speaks of Rome as the place,

where Peter attains to the suffering of the Lord, where Paul is crowned with the departure of John [i.e. was beheaded], where the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island.

Praescr. 36
Tertullian does not specifically say that John was exiled at the same time as Peter and Paul were martyred, though some scholars believe it is implied.

But Jerome records an otherwise lost statement of Tertullian which claimed that John was plunged into the boiling oil by Nero:

moreover, Tertullian relates that, having been thrown into a terracotta jar of burning oil by Nero (a Nerone missus in ferventis olei dolium), he came out cleaner and more vigorous than when he entered.

Jov. 1.26
The reading “by Nero,” found in all the manuscripts, was amended by an editor to read Romae (“at Rome”) because of its support for the Neronian exile (the editor justified this on the basis that we know the exile happened in Domitian’s reign).

Jerome’s source could not have been Tertullian’s extant Prescription of Heretics as he quotes details about the oil incident (e.g. that John came out more youthful) which are not found in that work. Instead, he probably quoted from one of Tertullian’s lost works.

Thus,

  • Tertullian states that “the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island,” showing the close connection of the events.
  • Tertullian (as quoted by Jerome) states that John was thrown into the boiling oil in Nero’s reign.
  • Therefore, if Tertullian made both statements, he must have placed both the oil incident and the exile that followed it in the reign of Nero.
Jerome also cited unnamed “ecclesiastical histories” as relating that John was “immediately” (statim) sent into exile after surviving being plunged into the boiling oil.

The source could not have been Tertullian, as he did not write an ecclesiastical history. This thus seems to suggest yet another independent source of a tradition which associated the oil immersion with the exile. The chapter suggests Hegesippus’ Memoirs as the “histories” referred to and as Tertullian’s source for the tradition.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 200)
The chapter discusses Clement’s story of the robber captain who fell from the faith and was later restored to it by John, which Clement places sometime after John’s return from exile. Indications in the text show that the story must have been envisioned as taking place over many years.

Chrysostom, who apparently also knows the traditions, stated that the young man “first became a disciple of John, but later was a chief of robbers for a long time (ἐπὶ πολὺν χρόνον)” (ad Theod. 1. 17),1

Furthermore, this narrative cannot be fitted into the brief time between the death of Domitian in 96 and John’s death by the end of the first century. And according to Jerome, John could not even walk in his old age, whereas in this story John is said to have traveled on horseback and to have vigorously pursued the robber. Instead, this narrative was set sometime between John’s return from exile after Nero’s death and the onset of John’s extreme old age, during a decades-long ministry in Asia.

The Acts of John (c. 200)
The extant text of this second- or third-century Gnostic work begins with John sailing to Ephesus from Miletus, after which it relates a lengthy account of John’s Asian ministry, culminating in the story of John’s death.

The exile is not mentioned in the extant text, but some scholars think it was probably related in the lost beginning of the work (especially since Miletus is a natural stopping point from Patmos to Ephesus). This narrative is consistent with that proposed for Clement, of a long ministry of John in Asia Minor following his return from exile.

The chapter also provides evidence that the Acts of John envisioned this ministry as occurring over decades, and it argues that John probably visited all seven churches of Revelation, in order, during this time, citing Tertullian, the Passio Iohannis, of Ps.-Melito, and other works in support.

Syriac Works
The Neronian exile is attested in Syriac versions of Revelation which may date to as early as the fourth century. It is also attested in the Syriac work entitled the History of John, which may also have been written as early as the fourth century.

Tyconius of Carthage (fl. 380)
Tyconius identified the sixth king of John’s vision (of whom it is said “one is”) as Nero, suggesting that he or his source placed the vision in Nero’s reign.

Source: The Early Reception of Revelation
 

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Irenaeus (c. 185)

Irenaeus claims that at the time of the writing of John’s Gospel, Cerinthus was actively disseminating his teachings, which the Nicolaitans had also disseminated “a long time previously” (Haer. 3.11.1). Elsewhere Irenaeus states that the Nicolaitans were active at the time of the writing of Revelation (Haer. 1.26.3), suggesting that he also placed the writing of Revelation “a long time previously” to the writing of the Gospel.

Irenaeus likely placed Cerinthus (who was, according to him, contemporary with the publication of John’s Gospel) at the end of the first century, since he relates that he was known by Polycarp (Haer. 3.3.4), who was martyred in the mid second century. Thus:

  • Time of Cerinthus = end of first century = time of John’s Gospel
  • Time of Nicolaitans = “a long time previous” to Cerinthus = time of Revelation
More on the Nicolaitans

According to Eusebius, the Nicolaitans “subsisted for a very short time” (Hist. eccl. 3.29.1). The chapter also notes that according to Hippolytus, Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17–18) were following the teaching of Nicolas, the founder of the sect (De resurr. fr. 1); these two were active in Asia at the end of Paul’s life (i.e. during Nero’s reign).

If this represented a common tradition, then Irenaeus would have placed the Nicolaitans—and Revelation—in the 60s and Cerinthus—and the Gospel of John—in the 90s of the common era.

He was Seen

Irenaeus is often believed to have claimed that the apocalyptic vision was seen (ἑωράθη) by John at the end of Domitian’s reign (προς τῷ τέλει τῆς Δομετιανοῦ ἀρχῆς). This passage was discussed in Chapter 6.

The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to Luke (c. 190)

This second century work, while not direct evidence for the early date, does claim that “John first wrote Revelation in the island of Patmos, and afterwards the Gospel (Latin adds: “in Asia”), which is consistent with the evidence of Irenaeus discussed above.

Tertullian (c. 205)

Tertullian speaks of Rome as the place,

where Peter attains to the suffering of the Lord, where Paul is crowned with the departure of John [i.e. was beheaded], where the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island.

Praescr. 36
Tertullian does not specifically say that John was exiled at the same time as Peter and Paul were martyred, though some scholars believe it is implied.

But Jerome records an otherwise lost statement of Tertullian which claimed that John was plunged into the boiling oil by Nero:

moreover, Tertullian relates that, having been thrown into a terracotta jar of burning oil by Nero (a Nerone missus in ferventis olei dolium), he came out cleaner and more vigorous than when he entered.

Jov. 1.26
The reading “by Nero,” found in all the manuscripts, was amended by an editor to read Romae (“at Rome”) because of its support for the Neronian exile (the editor justified this on the basis that we know the exile happened in Domitian’s reign).

Jerome’s source could not have been Tertullian’s extant Prescription of Heretics as he quotes details about the oil incident (e.g. that John came out more youthful) which are not found in that work. Instead, he probably quoted from one of Tertullian’s lost works.

Thus,

  • Tertullian states that “the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island,” showing the close connection of the events.
  • Tertullian (as quoted by Jerome) states that John was thrown into the boiling oil in Nero’s reign.
  • Therefore, if Tertullian made both statements, he must have placed both the oil incident and the exile that followed it in the reign of Nero.
Jerome also cited unnamed “ecclesiastical histories” as relating that John was “immediately” (statim) sent into exile after surviving being plunged into the boiling oil.

The source could not have been Tertullian, as he did not write an ecclesiastical history. This thus seems to suggest yet another independent source of a tradition which associated the oil immersion with the exile. The chapter suggests Hegesippus’ Memoirs as the “histories” referred to and as Tertullian’s source for the tradition.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 200)
The chapter discusses Clement’s story of the robber captain who fell from the faith and was later restored to it by John, which Clement places sometime after John’s return from exile. Indications in the text show that the story must have been envisioned as taking place over many years.

Chrysostom, who apparently also knows the traditions, stated that the young man “first became a disciple of John, but later was a chief of robbers for a long time (ἐπὶ πολὺν χρόνον)” (ad Theod. 1. 17),1

Furthermore, this narrative cannot be fitted into the brief time between the death of Domitian in 96 and John’s death by the end of the first century. And according to Jerome, John could not even walk in his old age, whereas in this story John is said to have traveled on horseback and to have vigorously pursued the robber. Instead, this narrative was set sometime between John’s return from exile after Nero’s death and the onset of John’s extreme old age, during a decades-long ministry in Asia.

The Acts of John (c. 200)
The extant text of this second- or third-century Gnostic work begins with John sailing to Ephesus from Miletus, after which it relates a lengthy account of John’s Asian ministry, culminating in the story of John’s death.

The exile is not mentioned in the extant text, but some scholars think it was probably related in the lost beginning of the work (especially since Miletus is a natural stopping point from Patmos to Ephesus). This narrative is consistent with that proposed for Clement, of a long ministry of John in Asia Minor following his return from exile.

The chapter also provides evidence that the Acts of John envisioned this ministry as occurring over decades, and it argues that John probably visited all seven churches of Revelation, in order, during this time, citing Tertullian, the Passio Iohannis, of Ps.-Melito, and other works in support.

Syriac Works
The Neronian exile is attested in Syriac versions of Revelation which may date to as early as the fourth century. It is also attested in the Syriac work entitled the History of John, which may also have been written as early as the fourth century.

Tyconius of Carthage (fl. 380)
Tyconius identified the sixth king of John’s vision (of whom it is said “one is”) as Nero, suggesting that he or his source placed the vision in Nero’s reign.

Source: The Early Reception of Revelation

None of this proves your case. This seems to be you foisting your opinion on the ECFs in order to sustain a view that doesn't add up. The burden of proof is still with you.
 
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timtams

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None of this proves your case. This seems to be you foisting your opinion on the ECFs in order to sustain a view that doesn't add up. The burden of proof is still with you.
Unless you can refute the points which the article makes, I'll consider them still valid.
 
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keras

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Unless you can refute the points which the article makes, I'll consider them still valid.
What is totally invalid, is assuming Revelation is fulfilled by the events of 70 to 135 AD
Trying to prove the Revelation was written before and about those events, is wrong and nothing that happen at the Roman conquest of Judah, relates to the prophesies of Revelation.
It will be us, the last generation of this Church age, who will experience the trials and tribulations of the end times.
As 2 Peter 3:12 says; Look forward to the Day and hasten it on......
 
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timtams

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What is totally invalid, is assuming Revelation is fulfilled by the events of 70 to 135 AD
Trying to prove the Revelation was written before and about those events, is wrong and nothing that happen at the Roman conquest of Judah, relates to the prophesies of Revelation.
It will be us, the last generation of this Church age, who will experience the trials and tribulations of the end times.
As 2 Peter 3:12 says; Look forward to the Day and hasten it on......
Sir, I don't think we're going to be able to discuss this. You see, you've already committed a huge logical blunder. The OP is about the date of Revelation, not the interpretation of Revelation. While the latter may in some cases be reliant upon the former, the former does not necessitate the latter. They are separate issues. You have failed to differentiate them.
 
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timtams

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There no evidence, just weak theories. Please present actual quotes instead of speculations.
The arguments seem pretty solid to me. If you can't refute them and are going to avoid engaging with them, then you're just wasting time.
 
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timtams

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Why do you avoid hard quotes?
I guess because there is a lack of explicit evidence for either the late or early date, hence the deductive reasoning, which is perfectly valid btw. One of those is a direct statement from Jerome stating what Tertullian had said, so what's the problem?

If the reasoning is incorrect (it looks good to me), show it. Or do you deny the validity of deductive reasoning?

Do you have hard quotes for the late date? The article links to a page that shows why Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria are both ambiguous (therefore not hard quotes).
 
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sovereigngrace

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I guess because there is a lack of explicit evidence for either the late or early date, hence the deductive reasoning, which is perfectly valid btw. One of those is a direct statement from Jerome stating what Tertullian had said, so what's the problem?

If the reasoning is incorrect (it looks good to me), show it. Or do you deny the validity of deductive reasoning?

Do you have hard quotes for the late date? The article links to a page that shows why Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria are both ambiguous (therefore not hard quotes).

No. You are presenting personal opinion. No facts. That is totally inadmissible from an evidential perspective.
 
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claninja

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Irenaeus (c. 185)

Irenaeus claims that at the time of the writing of John’s Gospel, Cerinthus was actively disseminating his teachings, which the Nicolaitans had also disseminated “a long time previously” (Haer. 3.11.1). Elsewhere Irenaeus states that the Nicolaitans were active at the time of the writing of Revelation (Haer. 1.26.3), suggesting that he also placed the writing of Revelation “a long time previously” to the writing of the Gospel.

Irenaeus likely placed Cerinthus (who was, according to him, contemporary with the publication of John’s Gospel) at the end of the first century, since he relates that he was known by Polycarp (Haer. 3.3.4), who was martyred in the mid second century. Thus:

  • Time of Cerinthus = end of first century = time of John’s Gospel
  • Time of Nicolaitans = “a long time previous” to Cerinthus = time of Revelation
More on the Nicolaitans

According to Eusebius, the Nicolaitans “subsisted for a very short time” (Hist. eccl. 3.29.1). The chapter also notes that according to Hippolytus, Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17–18) were following the teaching of Nicolas, the founder of the sect (De resurr. fr. 1); these two were active in Asia at the end of Paul’s life (i.e. during Nero’s reign).

If this represented a common tradition, then Irenaeus would have placed the Nicolaitans—and Revelation—in the 60s and Cerinthus—and the Gospel of John—in the 90s of the common era.

He was Seen

Irenaeus is often believed to have claimed that the apocalyptic vision was seen (ἑωράθη) by John at the end of Domitian’s reign (προς τῷ τέλει τῆς Δομετιανοῦ ἀρχῆς). This passage was discussed in Chapter 6.

The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to Luke (c. 190)

This second century work, while not direct evidence for the early date, does claim that “John first wrote Revelation in the island of Patmos, and afterwards the Gospel (Latin adds: “in Asia”), which is consistent with the evidence of Irenaeus discussed above.

Tertullian (c. 205)

Tertullian speaks of Rome as the place,

where Peter attains to the suffering of the Lord, where Paul is crowned with the departure of John [i.e. was beheaded], where the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island.

Praescr. 36
Tertullian does not specifically say that John was exiled at the same time as Peter and Paul were martyred, though some scholars believe it is implied.

But Jerome records an otherwise lost statement of Tertullian which claimed that John was plunged into the boiling oil by Nero:

moreover, Tertullian relates that, having been thrown into a terracotta jar of burning oil by Nero (a Nerone missus in ferventis olei dolium), he came out cleaner and more vigorous than when he entered.

Jov. 1.26
The reading “by Nero,” found in all the manuscripts, was amended by an editor to read Romae (“at Rome”) because of its support for the Neronian exile (the editor justified this on the basis that we know the exile happened in Domitian’s reign).

Jerome’s source could not have been Tertullian’s extant Prescription of Heretics as he quotes details about the oil incident (e.g. that John came out more youthful) which are not found in that work. Instead, he probably quoted from one of Tertullian’s lost works.

Thus,

  • Tertullian states that “the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island,” showing the close connection of the events.
  • Tertullian (as quoted by Jerome) states that John was thrown into the boiling oil in Nero’s reign.
  • Therefore, if Tertullian made both statements, he must have placed both the oil incident and the exile that followed it in the reign of Nero.
Jerome also cited unnamed “ecclesiastical histories” as relating that John was “immediately” (statim) sent into exile after surviving being plunged into the boiling oil.

The source could not have been Tertullian, as he did not write an ecclesiastical history. This thus seems to suggest yet another independent source of a tradition which associated the oil immersion with the exile. The chapter suggests Hegesippus’ Memoirs as the “histories” referred to and as Tertullian’s source for the tradition.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 200)
The chapter discusses Clement’s story of the robber captain who fell from the faith and was later restored to it by John, which Clement places sometime after John’s return from exile. Indications in the text show that the story must have been envisioned as taking place over many years.

Chrysostom, who apparently also knows the traditions, stated that the young man “first became a disciple of John, but later was a chief of robbers for a long time (ἐπὶ πολὺν χρόνον)” (ad Theod. 1. 17),1

Furthermore, this narrative cannot be fitted into the brief time between the death of Domitian in 96 and John’s death by the end of the first century. And according to Jerome, John could not even walk in his old age, whereas in this story John is said to have traveled on horseback and to have vigorously pursued the robber. Instead, this narrative was set sometime between John’s return from exile after Nero’s death and the onset of John’s extreme old age, during a decades-long ministry in Asia.

The Acts of John (c. 200)
The extant text of this second- or third-century Gnostic work begins with John sailing to Ephesus from Miletus, after which it relates a lengthy account of John’s Asian ministry, culminating in the story of John’s death.

The exile is not mentioned in the extant text, but some scholars think it was probably related in the lost beginning of the work (especially since Miletus is a natural stopping point from Patmos to Ephesus). This narrative is consistent with that proposed for Clement, of a long ministry of John in Asia Minor following his return from exile.

The chapter also provides evidence that the Acts of John envisioned this ministry as occurring over decades, and it argues that John probably visited all seven churches of Revelation, in order, during this time, citing Tertullian, the Passio Iohannis, of Ps.-Melito, and other works in support.

Syriac Works
The Neronian exile is attested in Syriac versions of Revelation which may date to as early as the fourth century. It is also attested in the Syriac work entitled the History of John, which may also have been written as early as the fourth century.

Tyconius of Carthage (fl. 380)
Tyconius identified the sixth king of John’s vision (of whom it is said “one is”) as Nero, suggesting that he or his source placed the vision in Nero’s reign.

Source: The Early Reception of Revelation

As a partial preterist, I can tell you that the external evidence cannot prove when Revelation was written, as we have multiple patristic sources that give different time frames. While, I believe the internal evidence points to pre 70ad, this more of a subjective argument, and futurists will typically disagree.

1.) While the original greek text of Irenaeus' Against Heresies could be translated as either "he (john) was seen" or "it (the vision) was seen", Eusebius and Jerome seem to agree that it should be translated "it (the vision) was seen not long ago, but almost in our time, at the end of the reign of Domitian".

"But if it had been necessary to announce his name plainly at the present time, it would have been spoken by him who saw the apocalypse. For it was not seen long ago, but almost in our own time, at the end of the reign of Domitian."


2.) Victorinus' commentary on Revelation agrees that the vision was seen during the reign of Domitian

"When John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labor of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God"


3.) The Muratorian Fragment implies only that Paul wrote his letters to churches after John. But this does not tell us which emperor John was banished under.

“the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name.”"

4.) Apringius in his commentaries, has John banished to patmos under Claudius Caesar

“The ecclesiastical writers have taught that at the time of Claudius Caesar, when that famine that the prophet Agabus had announced in the Acts of the Apostles would come in ten years was at its height, that during that difficulty this same Caesar, impelled by his usual vanity, had instituted a persecution of the churches. It was during this time that he ordered John, the apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ, to be transported into exile, and he was taken to the island of Patmos, and while there he confirm this writing.”

5.) Epiphanius dates the revelation as during the time of Claudius.

“who prophesied in the time of Claudius . . . the prophetic word according to the Apocalypse being disclosed”

6.) Tertullian does not tell us who John was banished under

"where Peter had a like Passion with the Lord; where Paul hath for his crown the same death with John; where the Apostle John was plunged into boiling oil, and suffered nothing, and was afterwards banished to an island.”

7.) Clement of Alexandria does not tell us who John was banished under.

"“When after the death of the tyrant…[John the apostle] removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus…”
 
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timtams

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1.) While the original greek text of Irenaeus' Against Heresies could be translated as either "he (john) was seen" or "it (the vision) was seen", Eusebius and Jerome seem to agree that it should be translated "it (the vision) was seen not long ago, but almost in our time, at the end of the reign of Domitian".


Jerome too? Do you know where he quotes Irenaeus's words?




6.) Tertullian does not tell us who John was banished under

"where Peter had a like Passion with the Lord; where Paul hath for his crown the same death with John; where the Apostle John was plunged into boiling oil, and suffered nothing, and was afterwards banished to an island.”
What about Jerome's quotation from Tertullian in the blog post I posted?
 
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claninja

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Jerome too? Do you know where he quotes Irenaeus's words?





What about Jerome's quotation from Tertullian in the blog post I posted?

sorry, no, unlike Eusebius, Jerome does not directly quote irenaeus. I’m assuming Jerome’s source, the ecclesiastical histories, is related to Eusebius and irenaeus, due to Jerome mentioning John living until the time of Trajan and being banished under Domitian.

“We maybe sure that John was then a boy because ecclesiastical history most clearly proves that he lived to the reign of Trajan, that is, he fell asleep in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion, as I have briefly noted in my treatise on Illustrious Men. Peter is an Apostle, and John is an Apostle — the one a married man, the other a virgin; but Peter is an Apostle only, John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian as a martyrfor the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future.“ jov 1.26
 
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timtams

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It looks like Tertullian held to the early dating in Nero's reign. This is from the same website I got the information above from:


Tertullian
According to Tertullian, John was immersed into a vat of boiling oil but emerged unhurt, before being sent into exile. He thus speaks of Rome as the place

where Peter attains to the suffering of the Lord, where Paul is crowned with the departure of John [i.e. is beheaded], where the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island.
Tertullian, Praescr. 36.

Some scholars think that Tertullian implies that all three apostles suffered at the same time. Perhaps, though late-daters point out that this cannot be proven with certainty.

However, the discussion does not end there; Jerome quoted Tertullian (presumably from a lost work) to the effect that John was placed in boiling oil in Nero’s reign:

moreover, Tertullian relates that, having been thrown into a terracotta jar of burning oil by Nero (a Nerone), he came out cleaner and more vigorous than when he entered.
Jerome, Jov. 1.26.

By comparing Jerome’s quotation and Tertullian himself, we can conclude that John was placed (according to Tertullian) in the boiling oil by Nero, and that upon emerging from it he was sent into exile.

Tertullian’s Text Amended
The evidence that Tertullian placed John’s exile in Nero’s reign is often overlooked, no doubt largely on account of the decision by Vittori, the sixteenth-century editor, to replace “by Nero,” the reading found in all the manuscripts, with “at Rome” in Jerome’s quotation.

This change leaves Jerome’s statement with no chronological implications for Tertullian’s story of the boiling oil.

Vittori explains that he made this amendment because Tertullian associated the boiling oil with the exile, and “this happened in Domitian’s reign.”

The Early Christians and the Dating of Revelation: Are We Too Late?
 
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DavidPT

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Irenaeus (c. 185)

Irenaeus claims that at the time of the writing of John’s Gospel, Cerinthus was actively disseminating his teachings, which the Nicolaitans had also disseminated “a long time previously” (Haer. 3.11.1). Elsewhere Irenaeus states that the Nicolaitans were active at the time of the writing of Revelation (Haer. 1.26.3), suggesting that he also placed the writing of Revelation “a long time previously” to the writing of the Gospel.

Irenaeus likely placed Cerinthus (who was, according to him, contemporary with the publication of John’s Gospel) at the end of the first century, since he relates that he was known by Polycarp (Haer. 3.3.4), who was martyred in the mid second century. Thus:

  • Time of Cerinthus = end of first century = time of John’s Gospel
  • Time of Nicolaitans = “a long time previous” to Cerinthus = time of Revelation
More on the Nicolaitans

According to Eusebius, the Nicolaitans “subsisted for a very short time” (Hist. eccl. 3.29.1). The chapter also notes that according to Hippolytus, Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17–18) were following the teaching of Nicolas, the founder of the sect (De resurr. fr. 1); these two were active in Asia at the end of Paul’s life (i.e. during Nero’s reign).

If this represented a common tradition, then Irenaeus would have placed the Nicolaitans—and Revelation—in the 60s and Cerinthus—and the Gospel of John—in the 90s of the common era.

He was Seen

Irenaeus is often believed to have claimed that the apocalyptic vision was seen (ἑωράθη) by John at the end of Domitian’s reign (προς τῷ τέλει τῆς Δομετιανοῦ ἀρχῆς). This passage was discussed in Chapter 6.

The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to Luke (c. 190)

This second century work, while not direct evidence for the early date, does claim that “John first wrote Revelation in the island of Patmos, and afterwards the Gospel (Latin adds: “in Asia”), which is consistent with the evidence of Irenaeus discussed above.

Tertullian (c. 205)

Tertullian speaks of Rome as the place,

where Peter attains to the suffering of the Lord, where Paul is crowned with the departure of John [i.e. was beheaded], where the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island.

Praescr. 36
Tertullian does not specifically say that John was exiled at the same time as Peter and Paul were martyred, though some scholars believe it is implied.

But Jerome records an otherwise lost statement of Tertullian which claimed that John was plunged into the boiling oil by Nero:

moreover, Tertullian relates that, having been thrown into a terracotta jar of burning oil by Nero (a Nerone missus in ferventis olei dolium), he came out cleaner and more vigorous than when he entered.

Jov. 1.26
The reading “by Nero,” found in all the manuscripts, was amended by an editor to read Romae (“at Rome”) because of its support for the Neronian exile (the editor justified this on the basis that we know the exile happened in Domitian’s reign).

Jerome’s source could not have been Tertullian’s extant Prescription of Heretics as he quotes details about the oil incident (e.g. that John came out more youthful) which are not found in that work. Instead, he probably quoted from one of Tertullian’s lost works.

Thus,

  • Tertullian states that “the apostle John, after he was plunged into boiling oil, having suffered nothing, is exiled to an island,” showing the close connection of the events.
  • Tertullian (as quoted by Jerome) states that John was thrown into the boiling oil in Nero’s reign.
  • Therefore, if Tertullian made both statements, he must have placed both the oil incident and the exile that followed it in the reign of Nero.
Jerome also cited unnamed “ecclesiastical histories” as relating that John was “immediately” (statim) sent into exile after surviving being plunged into the boiling oil.

The source could not have been Tertullian, as he did not write an ecclesiastical history. This thus seems to suggest yet another independent source of a tradition which associated the oil immersion with the exile. The chapter suggests Hegesippus’ Memoirs as the “histories” referred to and as Tertullian’s source for the tradition.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 200)
The chapter discusses Clement’s story of the robber captain who fell from the faith and was later restored to it by John, which Clement places sometime after John’s return from exile. Indications in the text show that the story must have been envisioned as taking place over many years.

Chrysostom, who apparently also knows the traditions, stated that the young man “first became a disciple of John, but later was a chief of robbers for a long time (ἐπὶ πολὺν χρόνον)” (ad Theod. 1. 17),1

Furthermore, this narrative cannot be fitted into the brief time between the death of Domitian in 96 and John’s death by the end of the first century. And according to Jerome, John could not even walk in his old age, whereas in this story John is said to have traveled on horseback and to have vigorously pursued the robber. Instead, this narrative was set sometime between John’s return from exile after Nero’s death and the onset of John’s extreme old age, during a decades-long ministry in Asia.

The Acts of John (c. 200)
The extant text of this second- or third-century Gnostic work begins with John sailing to Ephesus from Miletus, after which it relates a lengthy account of John’s Asian ministry, culminating in the story of John’s death.

The exile is not mentioned in the extant text, but some scholars think it was probably related in the lost beginning of the work (especially since Miletus is a natural stopping point from Patmos to Ephesus). This narrative is consistent with that proposed for Clement, of a long ministry of John in Asia Minor following his return from exile.

The chapter also provides evidence that the Acts of John envisioned this ministry as occurring over decades, and it argues that John probably visited all seven churches of Revelation, in order, during this time, citing Tertullian, the Passio Iohannis, of Ps.-Melito, and other works in support.

Syriac Works
The Neronian exile is attested in Syriac versions of Revelation which may date to as early as the fourth century. It is also attested in the Syriac work entitled the History of John, which may also have been written as early as the fourth century.

Tyconius of Carthage (fl. 380)
Tyconius identified the sixth king of John’s vision (of whom it is said “one is”) as Nero, suggesting that he or his source placed the vision in Nero’s reign.

Source: The Early Reception of Revelation


IMO, even if Revelation was written prior to 70 AD, that alone does not undeniably prove that any of the prophetic events involved that time period. It only means it is a possibility. If Revelation is written after 70 AD that at least proves none of the prophetic events involve 70 AD, since it would be ludicrous to prophesy about events already in the past. Prophecies usually warn ppl in advance of something coming to pass. If Revelation was written after 70 AD, yet in the first century, why would anyone in the first century post 70 AD need to be warned about events that have already come to pass, assuming some of those events involve what took place in 70 AD and leading up to it? They wouldn't. So, it's understandable why Preterists would argue against a post 70 AD writing of Revelation. But even so, Revelation, just like numerous other prophecies recorded in the Bible, can involve events not meant for that particular time period when it was initially prophesied/written. For example, prophecies involving Christ's first advent in the OT. His first advent never happened during the period of time these prophecies were initially uttered/written.
 
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claninja

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Clement of Alexandria?

Yes, clement of Alexandria. that was corrected. Thank you.

It seems by reasoning that we can possibly interpret clement of Alexandria’s “tyrant” to mean Nero, as he also states the apostles ministry ends with nero. But again, unfortunately, clement does not explicitly say the that the tyrant was Nero.

“For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, ends with Nero.”

"“When after the death of the tyrant…[John the apostle] removed from the island of Patmos to Ephesus…”
 
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