Pagan holidays mixing with Christian ones

Denadii

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These are silly arguments that reverses the way language works. Whatever I call the celebration doesn't change what I'm celebrating. Another thing. When Christian missionary's went to other lands to spread the Gospel it wasn't in a spirit of changing their culture. Most cultures centuries, or millenia ago had a foundation of myth that gave their society stability and for themselves meaning.Some have a good measure of truth. Some not much and others have deep meaning and a measure of error. If the Truth belongs to you as a member of the body that Truth was given. The object of myth is truth. In the measure it is true it will point at it's true object. So the truth in myth,true will point to it's true object. Jesus is Truth. BTW If I call my celebration Easter I'm still celebrating the resurrection no matter what it's called. Whatever word I'm using it means what I use it for. Words migrate over time, it's the concepts that don't change. The concepts are symbolized by different words. That's what this easter argument pagan holiday:p The concept is the resurrection It might be called dweetha in a hundred years. What is celebrated will stay the same

You go on thinking that way...Its your right...but remember...You are a spirit and you know nothing of how that works
 
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GingerBeer

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How many pagan traditions can you find in Christian ones? Hint: Halloween.
Do you think it is bad for Christian tradition to have some association with something that was once a pagan thing? If you do then why is it bad?
 
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GingerBeer

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You need to investigate the celebtion of Easter (Ishtar) a bit deeper It was celebrated for thousands of years before Jesus rose from the dead
What has Ishtar to do with Paschal mystery (Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again)?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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So you think the Christmas tree came up first in Germany in the 16th century? I believe we can find the Christmas tree in the Bible long before the birth of Christ.

Jeremiah 10
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

No offense but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You really need to educate yourself so that you might know the truth. The proof that you are wrong is right there in Jeremaih 10. By the sound of your answers it appears you are in the clergy as it would seem odd for a lay person to give that answer for why Christmas is on Dec 25th.

For anyone interested in the truth..........

*Christmas - Dec 25th - Birthday of Tammuz, The sun god, the reincarnated Nimrod.
*Valentines Day - The birthday of Nimrod. Nimrod is Osiris, Odin, Mithra, Zeus, Jupiter etc, etc, etc, etc
*Lent - 40 days of mourning the death of Tammuz. Tammuz is Horus, Thor, Apollo, Krishna etc, etc, etc, etc.
*Easter - Honoring Semiramis, the mother and wife of Nimrod. At her death she becomes Ishtar...who is also known as Isis....Madonna.....Diana....Venus......Ashtoreth.....Devaki.....Cybele etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
*Thanksgiving - Honoring the goddess of the harvest Ceres with the festival Cerelia.......who also has many names as she is Semiramis. If you think the first Thanksgiving was celebrated in 1621 by the Pilgrims...........you are sadly mistaken.

God's chosen day of worship changed in 321AD from the Sabbath, to SUNday. The Lord's Day....Baal's Day. The venerable day of the sun by Constantine.

Jeremiah ten is talking about making idols from a tree, not decorating them in the fashion of modern Christmas trees.

As for the claims of these connections, can you actually provide the primary sources which prove these assertions and then draw out the historical chronology that definitively proves the connection? We can do this with other aspects of Christian theology ( the development of understanding the Trinity for instance ) but why can't those who make these large assumptions regarding the Christian year be bothered to put forth anything other than bold claims? Instead of buying these popular myths, why not do the research? Credible research, not Jack Chick or Alexander Hislop.

I mean, just look at what you say about Lent, that it honours not only an Indian God (Krishna) but also an Egyptian God (Horus), a Greek God (Apollo), a Norse God (Thor) and a Babylonian God (Tammuz). If days of fasting before the feast of Pascha existed in all of these traditions it shouldn't be too hard to find the sources for it, but you never do because they don't exist. I don't expect an answer, other than LOL or "You can believe what you want. I'll stick this this."

Not a convincing position.
 
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GingerBeer

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prodromos

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For anyone interested in the truth..........
You would do well to ignore the mish mash of unrelated and erroneous beliefs which follows
*Christmas - Dec 25th - Birthday of Tammuz, The sun god, the reincarnated Nimrod.
*Valentines Day - The birthday of Nimrod. Nimrod is Osiris, Odin, Mithra, Zeus, Jupiter etc, etc, etc, etc
*Lent - 40 days of mourning the death of Tammuz. Tammuz is Horus, Thor, Apollo, Krishna etc, etc, etc, etc.
*Easter - Honoring Semiramis, the mother and wife of Nimrod. At her death she becomes Ishtar...who is also known as Isis....Madonna.....Diana....Venus......Ashtoreth.....Devaki.....Cybele etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
*Thanksgiving - Honoring the goddess of the harvest Ceres with the festival Cerelia.......who also has many names as she is Semiramis. If you think the first Thanksgiving was celebrated in 1621 by the Pilgrims...........you are sadly mistaken.

God's chosen day of worship changed in 321AD from the Sabbath, to SUNday. The Lord's Day....Baal's Day. The venerable day of the sun by Constantine.
 
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prodromos

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How many pagan traditions can you find in Christian ones? Hint: Halloween.
Giving thanks before meals.
Having a bath.
Getting married. Wedding rings.
...
 
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Choose Wisely

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Jeremiah ten is talking about making idols from a tree, not decorating them in the fashion of modern Christmas trees.

Jer 10
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Come on man......where do you think the Christmas tree came from. They cut a tree out of the forest with an ax. They deck it (decorate) with silver and gold and fasten it with nails and hammer. THAT IS A MODERN DAY CHRISTMAS TREE. What idol do you think they are talking about. When Tammuz was killed by a wild boar it was said his blood fell on a dry stump and the next day a live evergreen tree grew. The idol you are talking about is from that day forward they cut down a fir tree in honor of Tammuz who was said to be the reincarnated Nimrod.
As for the claims of these connections, can you actually provide the primary sources which prove these assertions and then draw out the historical chronology that definitively proves the connection? We can do this with other aspects of Christian theology ( the development of understanding the Trinity for instance ) but why can't those who make these large assumptions regarding the Christian year be bothered to put forth anything other than bold claims? Instead of buying these popular myths, why not do the research? Credible research, not Jack Chick or Alexander Hislop.
As for a primary source, how about the Bible. I just gave you the exact description of a Christmas tree in Jeremiah 10 and if you can't see that............how can you possibly see anything.

I mean, just look at what you say about Lent, that it honours not only an Indian God (Krishna) but also an Egyptian God (Horus), a Greek God (Apollo), a Norse God (Thor) and a Babylonian God (Tammuz). If days of fasting before the feast of Pascha existed in all of these traditions it shouldn't be too hard to find the sources for it, but you never do because they don't exist. I don't expect an answer, other than LOL or "You can believe what you want. I'll stick this this."

Not a convincing position.
Look at what I say about Lent? It is 40 days of mourning the death of Tammuz. In case you don't know God confused languages at the tower of Babel. When he did so those that could communicate went to different areas of the world. That is why Apollo is Tammuz to the Greeks and Horus is Tammuz to the Egyptians etc, etc, etc, etc. Again we might go to a credible source the Bible.

Ezekiel 8
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

I just wonder if there is going to come a day when you are interested in truth, or are you going to blindly follow what you have been taught. Just so you know, few seek the truth. Most don't seek out why we do things...........they just blindly do as they are told and have been taught. For example, they put up a Christmas tree in their house and think it has something to do with Christ without ever wondering what the Christmas tree really is. If you think that it popped up in the 1600's you might check your Bible.
 
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Monna

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Are Easter Eggs, Bunny Rabbits, Christmas trees jul logs, reindeer and Santa decscending the chimney to put goodie in "christmas stockings" and mistletoe also Christian in origin?

If you read Kenneth Bailey's "Jesus through Middle Easten eyes," you will have grave doubts about west European and N. American stories of the role of "no room in the inn" in Christ's birthday story. Also the fact that Herod killed all boys under the age of two, based on how long before the wise men from the east had seen the star arrived in Jerusalem, suggests that our cute little stories of shepherds and wise men all gathering around the baby in a manger in a barn, do not really add up. This doesn't make Christmas an originally pagan festival, but it does suggest that many people would rather hold to a "nice story" (that can generate a mighty commerical profit) rather than what is probably a more accurate version of "facts."

Where I live other "christian" holidays include Ascension Day, and Pentecost (Also related to Whit Sunday in some denominations), All Saints Day (rather than Halloween - the evening before) is also christian holiday. Epiphany is a day off (6th January).

There is another less widely celebrated holiday "Walpurgis Night is the English translation of Walpurgisnacht, one of the Dutch and German names for the night of 30 April, so called because it is the eve of the feast day of Saint Walpurga, an 8th-century abbess in Francia." (Walpurgis Night - Wikipedia).

In other countries you will also find holidays celebrating christian "saints" (like St. Patrick's Day [17th Mar], and St. Stephen's Day [26th Dec] in Ireland). Do such days count as "christian holidays?"
 
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Monna

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There's another angle to a lot of this.

To all practising Christian believers on this thread, are you a "holy" person (member of a holy nation and by implication a holy person) or a sinner saved by grace and still having to cope with sin on a daily basis?

The entire work of God in people is to "swallow up death in victory," to take a sinner and enemy of God and make such into "children of God," saints, priests, the "body of Christ," "the Bride of Christ," "citizens of heaven," a "holy nation." Which do we want to see - the before or after picture? Which should we emphasize." Do we want to emphasise and celebrate...John Newton the slave-trader, or John Newton the converted hymn writer and evangelist? The man before or after God intervened?

So you could look at the way God has taken pagan festivals and "swallowed them up" making them days when we can celebrate the works of God, instead of the works of the evil one. God usurps the right of evil doers to claim special festival days, and makes them holy days to focus our thoughts on Him, just has he made sinners in his children and heirs. (In fact he claims every day to be a holy day!)
 
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Athanasius377

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So you think the Christmas tree came up first in Germany in the 16th century? I believe we can find the Christmas tree in the Bible long before the birth of Christ.

Jeremiah 10
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

No offense but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. You really need to educate yourself so that you might know the truth. The proof that you are wrong is right there in Jeremaih 10. By the sound of your answers it appears you are in the clergy as it would seem odd for a lay person to give that answer for why Christmas is on Dec 25th.

For anyone interested in the truth..........

*Christmas - Dec 25th - Birthday of Tammuz, The sun god, the reincarnated Nimrod.
*Valentines Day - The birthday of Nimrod. Nimrod is Osiris, Odin, Mithra, Zeus, Jupiter etc, etc, etc, etc
*Lent - 40 days of mourning the death of Tammuz. Tammuz is Horus, Thor, Apollo, Krishna etc, etc, etc, etc.
*Easter - Honoring Semiramis, the mother and wife of Nimrod. At her death she becomes Ishtar...who is also known as Isis....Madonna.....Diana....Venus......Ashtoreth.....Devaki.....Cybele etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
*Thanksgiving - Honoring the goddess of the harvest Ceres with the festival Cerelia.......who also has many names as she is Semiramis. If you think the first Thanksgiving was celebrated in 1621 by the Pilgrims...........you are sadly mistaken.

God's chosen day of worship changed in 321AD from the Sabbath, to SUNday. The Lord's Day....Baal's Day. The venerable day of the sun by Constantine.


Every once in a while I get why Catholics look at all this non-sense and shake their heads and blame sola scriptura. Of course its precisely an ignoring of sola scriptura that leads a person to read a christmas tree into rant against the impotence of idols. That is called eisegesis. Eisegesis is bad. Let the text speak for itself.

Every one of these examples are utter rubbish. This is drive-by history. No serious scholar would ever state such a thing. Please cite an authority regarding these examples like a previous post asked.
 
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Denadii

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There's another angle to a lot of this.

To all practising Christian believers on this thread, are you a "holy" person (member of a holy nation and by implication a holy person) or a sinner saved by grace and still having to cope with sin on a daily basis?

The entire work of God in people is to "swallow up death in victory," to take a sinner and enemy of God and make such into "children of God," saints, priests, the "body of Christ," "the Bride of Christ," "citizens of heaven," a "holy nation." Which do we want to see - the before or after picture? Which should we emphasize." Do we want to emphasise and celebrate...John Newton the slave-trader, or John Newton the converted hymn writer and evangelist? The man before or after God intervened?

So you could look at the way God has taken pagan festivals and "swallowed them up" making them days when we can celebrate the works of God, instead of the works of the evil one. God usurps the right of evil doers to claim special festival days, and makes them holy days to focus our thoughts on Him, just has he made sinners in his children and heirs. (In fact he claims every day to be a holy day!)
God did nothing of the sort...Man did...We wanted things to celebrate too, so we borrowed pagan holidays and christianized them, which does not work.
But its obvious that you folks prefer your opinions over the Word...So....I'm outta here.
 
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Denadii

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If the heart is innocent the party happening is innocent. You might as well avoid math because algebra is an arabic word.
If I accidentally hit someone with my car, I didn't really hit them.....What kind of logic are you hanging on to?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Jer 10
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Come on man......where do you think the Christmas tree came from. They cut a tree out of the forest with an ax. They deck it (decorate) with silver and gold and fasten it with nails and hammer. THAT IS A MODERN DAY CHRISTMAS TREE. What idol do you think they are talking about. When Tammuz was killed by a wild boar it was said his blood fell on a dry stump and the next day a live evergreen tree grew. The idol you are talking about is from that day forward they cut down a fir tree in honor of Tammuz who was said to be the reincarnated Nimrod.

As for a primary source, how about the Bible. I just gave you the exact description of a Christmas tree in Jeremiah 10 and if you can't see that............how can you possibly see anything.


Look at what I say about Lent? It is 40 days of mourning the death of Tammuz. In case you don't know God confused languages at the tower of Babel. When he did so those that could communicate went to different areas of the world. That is why Apollo is Tammuz to the Greeks and Horus is Tammuz to the Egyptians etc, etc, etc, etc. Again we might go to a credible source the Bible.

Ezekiel 8
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

I just wonder if there is going to come a day when you are interested in truth, or are you going to blindly follow what you have been taught. Just so you know, few seek the truth. Most don't seek out why we do things...........they just blindly do as they are told and have been taught. For example, they put up a Christmas tree in their house and think it has something to do with Christ without ever wondering what the Christmas tree really is. If you think that it popped up in the 1600's you might check your Bible.

Your Logic is hollow.

Instead of superficially looking at the text to insert your reading of a Christmas tree, read it for what it actually says:

For the customs of the peoples are false:
a tree from the forest is cut down,
and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan;

NRSV

Christmas trees are not worked on by an artisan with an Ax. The Implication is clear idols here, which makes sense of the latter phrase the idol being decked with Gold and nails being fastened to it. Verse 5 goes so far as to call our attention to the entire passage being about Idols, not some sort of Primordial Christmas tree (by that I mean the actual evergreen) did not even exist in Middle east where Jeremiah was writing.

I'll rely on this exegesis, more than yours:

"Abruptly the reference shifts from the omens of the sky to the cutting of a tree for an idol. How easy it is for a superstitious population to be awestruck by some celestial phenomenon; but really it has no more significance than a tree felled by a woodsman in the forest—what a stunning reductio ad absurdum! And the reduction is reinforced by the word “hands” in the next colon: an idol is a human creation, an expression of human imagination. The misplaced faith of pagans is nothing but a set of do-it-yourself tasks in a workshop. The subject of “he cuts” is not stated (compare GKC, sec. 144d).
The חָרָשׁ is any kind of craftsman, whether in wood, stone, or metal; here it is clearly a carpenter or woodcarver that is intended. It is uncertain what kind of tool a מַעֲצָד is; the word appears only here and in Isa 44:12* in a similar passage. But the word mʿṣd appears several times in lists of agricultural implements in Ugaritic texts; C. H. Gordon suggests the meaning “scythe,”23 while the Arabic cognate miʿḍad is a bill-hook, an implement for pruning trees. The latter meaning is appropriate if the action described is trimming a piece of timber, but if a trimmed log is being carved into shape (which is more likely), then “adze” is the meaning, as it is in postbiblical Hebrew. One notes the assonance of ʾēṣ, ma‘ăśēh, and maʿăṣād in this sequence, and its continuation with yiṣ‘ādû in v 5*.
The wooden core of the idol is then decorated (or possibly “overlaid”: see Text, vv 4–5*, note a) with silver and gold. But what is meant by the “fastening” in the last colon? The colon ends with the clause “so that it cannot wobble” (וְלוֹא יָפִיק), implying that the image is fastened to a base (so also the implication of Isa 40:20*; 41:7*) or perhaps to the ground, so that it cannot be tipped over or stolen. Though the verb פוק hip‘il appears only here in the OT, the meaning “wobble” is fairly certain: the qal stem appears in Isa 28:7* meaning “stagger.” But one wonders whether there is not an ambiguity here, since in postbiblical Hebrew פוק hip‘il may mean “utter” (words), and the first colon in v 5*, in parallel fashion, ends with וְלֹא יְדַבֵּרוּ “and (they) cannot speak.” Does the expression then also mean “and it cannot utter (anything)”?"


William Lee Holladay, Jeremiah 1: A Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah, Chapters 1–25, ed. Paul D. Hanson, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1986), 331.

Ezekiel 8 being quoted in reference to Lent, leaves me more than a bit confused. What does this have to do with Lent itself? Is it that Lent is a sombre occasion and since Tammuz was weeped for, therefore there is a connection? Jesus wept for Lazurus, Lazurus sort of sounds like Tammuz, therefore Jesus wept for Tammuz. I mean, why not? We're going off any connection right?

We could also look in the bible and see more than a few people fasting for forty days, Jesus, Moses, Elijah and perhaps explain the reason why some early Christians had a period of forty day fasting was in imitation of a biblical pattern, but apparently we must have the least charitable interpretation with regards to the Christian feasts.

Also in appealing to the tower of Babel you are still not demonstrating the definitive connection between all these Gods, you are merely assuming it still. Are you able to provide one primary resource which states that within any of the cults dedicated to the gods you have mentioned that there was ever a forty day fast dedicated to them? Also, if there was, would you not be obligated to say Moses and Jesus engaged in a Pagan fasting ritual?
 
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