OSAS--Tough passages explained

[LouisBooth]

Personally I think you over analyzed it and made it say things it wasn't ment to say

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by Ben johnson

This is the power, the impetus of our being "born again"---Jesus IN US. Now, the question is simply, do we have the ability to later reject Jesus? Hebrews 10 is but one passage that screams, "YES!". JESUS is our "confidence that enters the holy place". And 10:35 says, "DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE".

You should really read the whole chapter and apply it in the correct context.

Heb 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all .

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth , no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Notice it says the knowledge of truth, not the GIFT of salvation through grace.

Heb 10:35 So do not throw away your confidence ; it will be richly rewarded.
This applies in the same way as assurance. Have you ever lived in sin for a short time? Did you begin to doubt your salvation or your assurance? I have and i did. It didn't make me less saved but I did "throw away" my confidence because of my lifestyle. I got right with God and my confidence was restored. Verse 23 of Heb. 10 says "he who has promised is faithful". The point is, the confidence and assurance spoken of here is for us. It is in our minds - living by faith in Jesus benefits and furthers our confidence in what we know to be true.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
37 For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved .


Verse 39 sums it all up nicely. We are not of those that shrink back. Why? Because we have been given more than just the "knowledge" of the truth. We have been infilled and reborn of/from Truth itself. We are those who believe and are saved.

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Soooo, what were youse guys' takes on my post on page 7, #61, top-of-page?

here's my take.

Ben johnson said:

Hello, s2snm! The problem is, that while we live, you cannot separate the "spiritual man" from the "fleshly man". The "old-nature" is synonymous with "flesh". This is why Paul challenges us to "not live according to the flesh, but CRUCIFY our flesh and live according to the Spirit" (Rm8:1214). I don't think your idea of "our spirit perfect & sinless while our flesh is corrupt & sinful" works, Scripturally. If we completely lose the "old-dead-nature", IE it is dead and gone forever, then we are by definition sinless.

S2SNM says:
I believe that the "old sin nature" is not synonymous with "flesh". Otherwise, why would Paul continuously say that the "sin nature" (the spirit in a nonchristian that drives him to want to sin) is dead, has been crucified , and yet in Romans chapters 6 to 8 he describes the struggle with the flesh (the body, the physical shell)? The NIV uses the word "sin nature" here, but I believe that to be a mistranslation, and the KJV and NKJV and others use "flesh". When Paul says "Crucify our flesh", he isn't talking about the sin nature that has already been crucified. He is talking about the flesh. What he means is to not do the sinful things the flesh sometimes does (when the heart is deceived by Satan's temptations), but rather walk in the Spirit.

 

[Caedmon]

I believe that we are definitely a new creation when we are regenerated, but the flesh never "dies". We still carry around the essence of the potential for sin inside us; the Puritans described the flesh as a corpse that we carry around on our back until God calls us home. The flesh, the sinful nature, the possibility of sin, doesn't just disappear when we are remade and instilled with a new spirit by God. It's still there, because we're still human, and it won't rest until it's destroyed when we die. It's just that now we have something to fight it.

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I believe that we are definitely a new creation when we are regenerated, but the flesh never "dies". We still carry around the essence of the potential for sin inside us; the Puritans described the flesh as a corpse that we carry around on our back until God calls us home. The flesh, the sinful nature, the possibility of sin, doesn't just disappear when we are remade and instilled with a new spirit by God. It's still there, because we're still human, and it won't rest until it's destroyed when we die. It's just that now we have something to fight it.

I would agree with you except on 2 points:

1)"potential for sin inside of us". When I think of "inside of us", i think of the spirit. Flesh is just a shell. It's what houses the spirit.

2)"the flesh, the sinful nature, the possibility of sin, just doesn't disappear when we are remade". The reason I disagree with this is because it appears to say that the flesh and the sin nature are the same thing. But tehy aren't. The sin nature is that spirit of wickedness that lives in a nonChristian that drives him to commit sin and to rebel against God. But Christians have a new nature - the nature of Christ, which strives to do the perfect and Holy will of God. Teh Christian doesn't really want to sin, because that wicked, sin-driven spirit is dead. To take the analogy of teh Puritans, the flesh is a rotting corpse that Christians carry around. Satan tries to deceive us into believing that corpse is alive with the sin nature, and that deep down inside, we want to rebel against God. But that is just another of his lies. When we believe that lie, when we are deceived by Satan's wicked words, that is when we let our flesh sin. But that's not because any part of our spirit really wants to sin - it's because our hearts believe Satan rather than God.

 

[Caedmon]

Perhaps we just have a terminology conflict, I'm not sure.

What is the flesh? Doesn't the flesh have a nature of sinfulness? How exactly is the Christian changed upon regeneration? I know she is a new creation, but I'm a little confused on the correct terminology and it's implications.

 

[LouisBooth]

"when we are regenerated, but the flesh never "dies". "

"Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. "

Its dead and gone never to come back. Col also talks about it. Its not coming back.

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Perhaps we just have a terminology conflict, I'm not sure.

What is the flesh? Doesn't the flesh have a nature of sinfulness? How exactly is the Christian changed upon regeneration? I know she is a new creation, but I'm a little confused on the correct terminology and it's implications.

Well, I believe that the Flesh has no nature of its own; that it is just the shell our spirits are housed in. It is certainly capable of sinning, because it is had not been created anew yet. However, I don't think there is anything the flesh, per se, thatdrives a man to commit sin. That wa steh sin nature (the wicked spirit) that drove a man to do that. Since a Christian is a new creation, and no has the Holy Spirit, the nature of Christ, it is that Spirit that drives the man - that wants to do what is holy. The sin nature, being dead, no longer drives a Christian. So why do Christians sin? Because they are tempted in the heart and mind by Satan (not by some dead sin nature). So does that mean "The Devil made me do it?" By no means. The Devil can only tempt us. If we choose to believe his lies and use our flesh to sin against God and to go against our own new nature (whioch cries out for holiness), the blame is ours.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Because they are tempted in the heart and mind by Satan (not by some dead sin nature). "

I personally would say in addition to that they long to be in a "comfortable place" ie your old habits of sin.

 

[Caedmon]

What about preterists that say that Satan doesn't directly tempt? How do you reconcile that?

 

[isshinwhat]

After I was Baptized, I was a new creature. Through the New Adam, I was reborn and became what the old Adam was before the fall. I was reborn onto a life that was supposed to be mine from the onset of Creation. I received this through a gift from the one who is not only the source of that life, but who lived as a human and kept that life in order to give it up for us.

Adam had no internal desire to sin, but did and fell from the life that he was freely given. I and every other Christian can do the same. The only difference, and it is a big one, is Christ. Whereas Adam had no Sacrifice for sin, we have one in Jesus. If we put on Christ we have a sacrifice for our sin and we can stand through Him and by means of His intercession with the Father. If we reject Christ, though, there is no sacrifice for sin.

As Peter said, this case is worse than the first because we know just who it is we are rejecting and what He did for us. This rejection doesn't have to be a Christian becoming an apostate, a believing Christian can reject Christ by not following Him. It was said earlier that salvation and sanctification are separate issues, but they aren't. You are either moving backward or forward in your walk with Christ. For those who are moving backward, I pray they do not stray too far, and never reject the "blood that has sanctified them" and given them a taste of the life to come.
Neal

 

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by humblejoe
What about preterists that say that Satan doesn't directly tempt? How do you reconcile that?

I would say that they are wrong, and have no Biblical basis for that idea.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by tericl2


You should really read the whole chapter and apply it in the correct context.

Heb 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all .

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth , no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Notice it says the knowledge of truth, not the GIFT of salvation through grace. [/i] [/B]

 

 

What exactly is being said.  Notice it says "no sacrifice for sins left".

If your sins are no longer covered by the blood of christ you are not saved.

Question.  When do you become saved, for example when did Peter become saved?

 

[AndOne]

Originally posted by tericl2


Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth , no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Notice it says the knowledge of truth, not the GIFT of salvation through grace.

[/i] [/B]

I'm curious to know what's the difference between "knowledge of truth" verses "GIFT of salvation" as it applies to Hebrews 10:26.

Your argument on this passage would hold up better if the writer had used the word "you" in lieu of "we" in the passage. Since he includes himself in the warning - the implication is that he is talking about those who are already saved.

Any thoughts?

 

[LightBearer]

The first requirement for salvation is taking in knowledge of God. Consider what Jesus’ said in John chapter 17.

The setting was the final night of Jesus’ life as a human. Jesus had spent much of the evening preparing his apostles for his departure. He was concerned about their future, their everlasting future. Raising his eyes to heaven, he prayed for them. In verse 3, we read: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” Yes, their salvation was dependent upon their “taking in knowledge” of both God and Christ.

What does it mean to ‘take in knowledge’ of God? The Greek word here translated “taking in knowledge” signifies “to come to know, recognize” or “to understand.” Notice, too, that the rendering “taking in knowledge” implies that this is an ongoing process. To take in knowledge of God then, means to come to know him not superficially but intimately, developing an understanding friendship with him. A continuing relationship with God brings ever-increasing knowledge of him. This process can continue forever, for we will never learn all that there is to know about God. Romans 11:33.

It’s important to remember that this knowledge of what God requires of us brings accountability. “If one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him,” says James 4:17. Ezekiel 33:7-9 shows that a person who is told God’s commandments and instructions is responsible to carry them out. So, for a Christian to willfully disregard this, Paul councils as in Heb 10: 26.

 

[Thunderchild]

A rule of thumb in Bible study is to interpret difficult verses in the light of simple clear cut ones. We should not be building doctrines out of one or two difficult verses.

Oh definitely - which is why OSAS fails. The clear cut verses state the facts without any possibility of miunderstanding. "There will be some who will believe for a time but when adversity arises, they will fall away." Jesus.

Obviously, the "will of my Father" here is not to be interpreted generally as "anything and everything that God tells us to do". So, what is it, specifically?

Obvious to some perhaps - not to me. What is the will of God? That we love God, and that we love our neighbour as ourselves. "If someone in need comes to you, and you say to that one be warmed and be filled, but - you, having the means, provide him nothing that he needs..." what is the result for you?

OSAS ignores every requirement that is cited in the gospels attributed to Jesus on the matter of requirements to be obedient to God. Some passages in the epistles can be made to look as though OSAS is supported. Some pointers can be assumed to exist by reason of logic that does not reason from the scriptures.

The epistles do not contradict the gospels: OSAS does.

 

[Thunderchild]

* John 6:39 -- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

By all means, let us examine all that the Bible has to say about the will of God in this matter. Including the Old Testament statement that God is not willing that ANY should die. Do some die? Certainly, some die ... and quite clearly from context, "die" here is a reference to the second death. Or perhaps, we should ignore entirely the statement of Jesus regarding Judas: "Of all you have given me, none has been lost except that son of perdition."

* John 6:40 -- For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

And again, it is the Father's WILL that all who look to the Son shall have eternal life. Does this make any declaration regarding those who do not look to the Son? And what is to be made of those who once looked to the Son, but no longer do?

* Matthew 18:14 -- In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Certainly - not the Father's will. Is there some doubt that some little ones will never believe?

* 2 Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And how does it happen that people don't perish? The answer is right here - they repent.

 

[Andrew]

latest update is here:

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/eternalsecurity.html#difficult

 

[OldShepherd]

OSAS and predestination go hand in hand with Calvinists. For example,"Those who are beloved in Christ are predestined to be saved and once saved they may fall into sin but they can never never completely and utterly fall away from God's irresistible grace."

One of the favorite predestination “proof texts” of Calvinists is Jeremiah 13:23

23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

As a “proof text", nothing could be clearer! Just as the man cannot change the color of his skin or the leopard his spots, all men are “predestined” to do good or evil and there is nothing they can do about it. But that is not what the passage is saying! Reading the context of the passage, God is not speaking to all of mankind but his chosen people Israel and Judah, and telling them the punishment He is meting out to them because of their sin and disobedience.

In this chapter God told Jeremiah to get a new sash/girdle and to bury it near the Euphrates river, and later told him to retrieve the sash, which had rotted and deteriorated and was no longer good for anything.

Jer 23:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

In this passage God's predestination was that the , “the whole house of Israel" and "the whole house of Judah", not just those that were elected or chosen, would be unto Him “a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory”

And why did this not happen? God Himself answers, “but they would not hear

Never in the entire Bible does God ever state that it was His purpose for any of His chosen people to disobey and die. Who did God set His love on? Israel, all of Israel, or only a chosen few?

Deut 7: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Everyone knows John 3:16 but to conform to Calvinist Theology it would have to be rewritten. John 3:16 according to Calvin;.

John 3:16 For God so loved only the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that only the elect, who believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son unto only the elect, to condemn only the elect; but that only the elect through him might be saved.

John 3:16 according to Jesus

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever, believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The word translated “whosoever” in John 3:16. It doesn’t mean only the elect, either.

Strong’s 3956 paV pas pas
including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj
AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types.

 

[Andrew]

quote: "I'm curious to know what's the difference between "knowledge of truth" verses "GIFT of salvation" as it applies to Hebrews 10:26. Your argument on this passage would hold up better if the writer had used the word "you" in lieu of "we" in the passage. Since he includes himself in the warning - the implication is that he is talking about those who are already saved. Any thoughts?"

The next few verses say........
28* He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29* Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews is written to the Jews. It tells them not to deny salvation by grace like how they denied Moses law becos doing the former is worse! So basically the whole book is telling the Jews not to reject salvation by grace thru Jesus.

In fact, right from the start in chp 2, it already says....

3* How shall we escape, if we neglect ("deny" NIV) so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

so dont read those "condemnation' verses as being for the Christian, cos its for the Jews who are thinking of rejecting salvation like how they rejected Moses and died. if they do the former, there's no more hope cos God aint gonna come up with another plan.