OSAS--Tough passages explained

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Ben johnson

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I do not believe that Christians will not sin. I have never said that. It's simply not Biblical. I have said from the beginning that I believe the spirit in a Christian is absolutely completely perfected.
Hello, s2snm! The problem is, that while we live, you cannot separate the "spiritual man" from the "fleshly man". The "old-nature" is synonymous with "flesh". This is why Paul challenges us to "not live according to the flesh, but CRUCIFY our flesh and live according to the Spirit" (Rm8:1214). I don't think your idea of "our spirit perfect & sinless while our flesh is corrupt & sinful" works, Scripturally. If we completely lose the "old-dead-nature", IE it is dead and gone forever, then we are by definition sinless.
Yes, Christians sin, but it is because they give into temptations in their hearts from demons and Satan.
You know, that is exactly right. And all that I am saying, is that if a person continues giving in to those temptations from demons and satan, they are no longer saved. But not my words, Paul's: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..." (1Tim4:1).
Therefore, when we become Christians, we become totally new creations, because we were never righteous in the first place.
We are "new creations", because of "Christ IN us". The entire perspective is founded upon our own belief. And I am saying that, Scripturally, that belief can remain, or fall.
Christ doesn't offer himself up continuously.
Indeed not. He offered Himself up, once, FOR ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE.

I would like to copy here a post I made on another message board, maybe it will help clarify what I'm saying:

Faith is a gift from God (Eph2:8)
With respect, let's look at the structure of that passage. Is there one subject? The answer seems to be, "yes".

For by grace you have been saved... This is the subject, God's gift of grace.

Then follow four separate phrases:
&#149Through faith (Dia Pistis, prepositional phrase, modifies the subject)
&#149That (subject) not of yourselves
&#149It (subject) is the gift of God
&#149(subject is) not as a result of works lest anyone boast...

There is really no way to elevate the prepositional phrase into its own subject. The passage has only one subject, God's-gift-of-grace. My Bible here, "Holman New American Standard", renders verse 8 thus:
"For [sup]a[/sup]by grace you have been saved [sup]b[/sup]through faith; and [sup]1[/sup]that not of yourselves, it is [sup]c[/sup]the gift of God;"

8 [sup]1[/sup]I.e., that salvation


"That salvation", that by-grace-are-you-saved. Not "that faith". Now, there seem to be different KINDS of faith; there is a faith that God DOES give, evidenced in Rom12:3 & 1Cor12:9---but this kind of faith is given to one Christian and not to another (1Cor12:9), or given in different measures (Rm12:3). If we specify, faith-unto-salvation, then according to Peter, that faith is from ourselves (1Pet1:9). Paul perfectly agrees in Rm10, "Faith comes from hearing". And, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as LORD, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." With the heart he believes---there is not "God-installs-belief" here, the man believes with his heart.

By God's grace are we saved, through our faith...

If God does all of the work of salvation, please help me to understand Heb10:

"Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus (see Heb6:19-20)... let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope (JESUS! 1Tim1:1) without wavering, for He who promised is faithful... For if we sin wilfully after receiving TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire which consumes the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think He will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? ...Therefore, DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great reward*. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise (Heaven---Heb4:1)".

(* "Do as for the Lord, knowing that from Him you will receive the reward of the INHERITANCE" Col2:24 {Inheritance is ETERNAL LIFE---1Pet1:4})

This man was sanctified by the blood of Jesus---is there any way he was not saved? But he has "trampled underfoot Jesus", and just as the one in Heb6:4-6, has become contemptuous of Christ. Please help me to understand how this passage accomodates, "God does all the work"? Or was this not written to us, "Grace-aged-Christians"? Or, maybe to early 1st-century-JEWS, somehow having a different covenant than us? Or does this apply to a different dispensation than us? Or is this a "NEGATIVE-RHETORICAL-HYPOTHETICAL", he doesn't-really-mean-what-he-says, he was only being OBLIQUE, as in "WHAT-IF-but-can't-REALLY-HAPPEN"? Does it apply to us, or not? Does it endorse "God does all the work", or not? Which???
__________________________________________________________________


Today's post:

"For the promise to Abraham or to his descendents was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of law are heirs, faith is made voide and the promise is nullified... For this reason it is by faith, inorer that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, in the sight of Him whom he (Abraham) believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, in order that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken. And without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; yet with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able to perform. Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him wo raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered up because of our justification." Romans4

Although the covenant has changed , from "Law" to "Grace", we have the same kind of faith/belief as did Abraham. "Faith-unto-salvation" is interchangeable with "belief-in/on-Christ"---and it is absolutely from our own hearts...

:)
 
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isshinwhat

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Therefore, when we become Christians, we become totally new creations, because we were never righteous in the first place.

When we become reborn as Christians, we are reborn into the state of holiness Adam was created in. This state of holiness, this Indwelling of the Holy Spirit allows us to commune with Jesus and participate in His Eternal Life, the life of the Blessed Trinity upon our death. In Mass we proclaim:

"Dying He destroyed our death, rising He restored our life. Come Lord Jesus!"

Romans 6:3-4

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Through His death, sin was conquered. The disobedience of Adam was made right by the obedience of Christ. Through Baptism, we die to both Original Sin and our Personal Sins. We are a new creation. The sin of our first parents, which cost us the Indwelling of the Spirit, is no longer upon us. We are freed. Any sin we commit after that is ours and is solely our responsibility. Through love and repentance we can place our sins under Christ's care and he will gladly make us clean. I do not mean that you must confess every sin, but you must have a repentant, prayerful attitude and a desire to humbly follow the Lord and do His will.

If we deliberately and gravely sin, however, we reject His sacrifice and we will fall from Grace, for it is only by His sacrifice that any are saved. If we repent of even our deliberate, grave sins, though, Christ will again make His abode within us.

Christ freely gave Himself as a Sacrifice for the sins of our fathers, which although we didn't commit them, we bore responsibility for. Those sins were not ours to repent of, they were a part of our fallen nature. Only Christ, who conquered sin, could cleanse us of this inherited sin and make us holy again. It was a gift that we had no right to ask for, and one that by Grace He gave freely. Though we have been made clean of our inherited sin, put to death our sinful nature, we can still later reject the Sacrifice that made it possible. If we reject Christ and His sacrifice then there is nothing to cover us when we fall. There is no Physican to bandage our wounds because we have sent the only doctor away.

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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And yes, Christ does still make intercession for us; He is still our advocate. But not as the slain Lord, rather as the Risen Lord! Christ doesn't offer himself up continuously. That part of the job is over. The victory has been won already!

I agree, and thank God He is risen! What I meant, though it was poorly worded, was Christ's sacrifice was both a one time and eternal event. Though Calvary occurred only one time, it's effects are spread to us today. We are called to participate in Christ's sufferings with our own:

Colossians 1:24

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

Philippians 3:10

...may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share in his sufferings, becoming like him in death

Revelation 5:6
And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain...

This passage from Revelations sums up what I was trying to say. The Lamb, now Risen and Glorified, had been slain. Because of this sacrifice, death has been conquered. He can now apply the fruits of His Sacrifice, e.g., the conquering of death and the ability to share in His Life, to us through His intercession. What was it I said earlier about sloppiness being a bad thing :blush:

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Originally posted by Ben johnson

Hello, s2snm! The problem is, that while we live, you cannot separate the "spiritual man" from the "fleshly man". The "old-nature" is synonymous with "flesh". This is why Paul challenges us to "not live according to the flesh, but CRUCIFY our flesh and live according to the Spirit" (Rm8:1214). I don't think your idea of "our spirit perfect & sinless while our flesh is corrupt & sinful" works, Scripturally. If we completely lose the "old-dead-nature", IE it is dead and gone forever, then we are by definition sinless. :)

I guess we'll never agree on the OSAS issue if we never agree on this.

Tonight, I was looking on the internet at what other Christian leaders think about the "two nature vs. one nature" debate. I found some who believe that the sin nature is not dead or, in some cases, not completely dead in the Christian. I found some who believe, as I do, that the sin nature is completely dead. One website I found has an article on the subject by Dr. Bill Gillham, which I think is right on the money. If you're interested in more deatil about how I feel about the subject, Dr. Gillham's article sums it up pretty nicely:

Do Christians Still Have a Sin Nature?

"The King is Dead! Long Live the King!" When I was a kid, I heard a Shakespearean actor in a film make such a statement and was thoroughly confused. How could the king be dead but alive at the same time? Little did I know that he was talking about two different people! Indeed, the former king had died and was no longer king–he had ceased to exist! But the new king, who could never have emerged as king had the old king not died, lives indeed! So long as the old king remained alive, the new king could not be born. But after the one’s birth as the new king, the old king could never again resurrect himself because he had no capability for self-resurrection! The very existence of the one precludes the existence of the other and vice versa! They cannot jump in and out of the grave, womb, grave, womb, etc.

The analogy is obvious to those who understand the believer’s identification with Christ in His death and resurrection. The old man has indeed died (Romans 6:6, etc.) and the new man has indeed been generated by the Holy Spirit (Colossians 3:10, etc.). But, unfortunately, the pervasive position taken by most Christian leaders is that the old man is still alive and well within the believer–that sinful performance gives daily testimony to this as fact. The old man is seen to leap in and out of the tomb many times during the typical day. However, one seldom hears a teacher claim that the new man leaps in and out of the womb, but most never see that the very existence of either precludes the existence of its opposite! The two can’t coexist any more than the two kings can! It was the death of the old man, which enabled the new man to be born! It is impossible for the new man to exist until the old man has died and the old man cannot resurrect himself. There is but One Life Who has such resurrection power–the Life of Christ!

Galatians 5:17 says that the flesh lusts against the spirit and vice versa and there is obviously a war going on inside of every Christian, but it’s not the old man versus the new man doing battle. Those cannot exist simultaneously. The Greek word interpreted flesh in all pertinent New Testament verses refers to the body–the physical body with its frailties and vulnerability (to sin). Romans 7:20 speaks of the POWER OF INDWELLING SIN (not the sin nature) working in man to produce undesirable (sinful) behavior. The power of sin simply deceives the Christian by masquerading as the old man, suggesting (deceiving) to the will that a choice be made to perform according to the old self-serving patterns programmed in previously. This is referred to as walking after the flesh. Satan could never deceive a Christian with a direct approach
as a little man in red underwear. He must disguise himself if he is to have any hope of victory. There is one way and one way only to accomplish this deception and that is to masquerade in the thought life of the Christian posing as his unique version of the old man! The naïve Christian will believe he, himself, is generating the unchristian suggestion and thus direct his defensive efforts against the wrong foe–what he perceives to be a darker side of himself! He fires all his bullets at a shadow! This is the explanation for the frustration depicted in Romans 7:15 – why do I do the very thing I hate? Why can I get no victory?

For many years it appeared to me that to adopt the posture that the sin nature was crucified in Christ (2 Cor. 5:2-10) would be rationalizing and excusing the Christian’s sinful performance. It seemed more logical to believe that Christians all have a sin nature against which the new man constantly must do battle. It would also appear that this is the noble, the more conservative, the more Spartan posture, and that to believe otherwise would be to fly in the fact of personal experience as well as God’s Word. While subscribing to this view I was blocked from recognizing the truth of Rom. 7:20 cited previously. Though it would appear that
the “two-natures” view places the greater responsibility for poor performance squarely on the Christian and that the “one-nature” view is a cop out, the opposite is actually true! So long as one embraces the former he is constantly deceived into believing his failure is just standard Christian experience. As Scofield said (paraphrased), This is not standard Christian experience, it’s the standard experience of most Christians, the tragic result of faulty discipling. Once the Christian enters into identification with Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension, claiming he no longer has two natures, but is now the righteousness of God in Christ and holy and blameless in His sight, he is without excuse when he sins, because he knows what it is to possess the Life which overcomes on a moment-by-moment basis. He is discerning of how sin is able to deceive him by masquerading a the extinct ixold man, hoping the Christian will take the bait, believe that the old man has generated this impulse or thought and end up doing the very thing he hates. (Rom. 7:15-20). In reality, it is accepted as fact that Christians no longer have a sin nature that places one squarely on the hook and totally responsible to choose, moment-by-moment, against the wooings, deceptions and accusations of indwelling sin working through the flesh. We know that our old (unrenewed) self was nailed to the cross (Note: this isn’t just our sins that Christ paid for on the cross, although PTL for that blessed truth, but that the old “you” died there, too, with Him in order that (our) body, (which is the instrument of) sin, might be made ineffective and inactive for evil, that we might no longer be slaves of sin. (Romans 6:6 Amplified)

Indwelling sin deceives the “two-natures” believer into rationalizing, “I’m just human. I just fail a lot and God understands it’s just my old sin nature that got the better of me.” This is the true cop out position! Such believers often have Romans 7:15 underlined as evidence that their experience is the normal Christian life, when it is, in fact, wandering in the aimless circles of the wilderness with Canaan just a promise away.

Awake sleeper! The king is dead! Long live the King!

This article, by Dr. Bill Gillham, is a reproduction from our Ministry Letter dated Jan-Feb, 1980.
This article may be copied and distributed if copyright is properly attributed and no profit is accrued.

©1980 Gillham Ministries, Inc., Fort Worth, TX
©2000 Lifetime Guarantee, Inc., 3333 Winthrop Avenue, Fort Worth, TX 76116

http://www.gospelcom.net/lifetime/equipped/bonus/xian_sin_nature.pdf
 
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Andrew

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QUOTE: "Tonight, I was looking on the internet at what other Christian leaders think about the "two nature vs. one nature" debate. I found some who believe that the sin nature is not dead or, in some cases, not completely dead in the Christian. I found some who believe, as I do, that the sin nature is completely dead. "

Why go to the Internet when the Bible already makes it so clear:

Ro 6:2* God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

either we believe it or we dont.

What is sin nature?

If you have the nature of a Lamb, you graze the green pastures.

If you have the nature of a pig, you enjoy the pig sty.

Put a pig in green pasture and he will feel out of place sooner or later.

Put a lamb in a pig sty and I can bet you he doesnt consider that home.

Now, put a sinner in a church and he'll feel out of place.

Likewise, put a born again Christian in a sinful lifestyle and he wont like it for long - becos he doesnt have a sinful nature anymore.

SO wake up, smell the coffee, your sinful nature IS dead, otherwise you woudn't even be speaking out against sin! otherwise you wouldnt even feel bad when you sin. :clap:
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Originally posted by Andrew
QUOTE: "Tonight, I was looking on the internet at what other Christian leaders think about the "two nature vs. one nature" debate. I found some who believe that the sin nature is not dead or, in some cases, not completely dead in the Christian. I found some who believe, as I do, that the sin nature is completely dead. "

Why go to the Internet when the Bible already makes it so clear:
SO wake up, smell the coffee, your sinful nature IS dead, otherwise you woudn't even be speaking out against sin! otherwise you wouldnt even feel bad when you sin. :clap:
Hi Andrew,
I didn't go to the internet try to understand it. I already know that I believe the sin nature is dead and why I believe it. I was just curious as to what others think.
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Originally posted by s0uljah
So, sin nature means not having guilt? I think that is what you are saying.
Is it possible for a true Christian to sin and not feel guilty?

Nope, I'm not saying a Christian won't feel guilty if he sins. the Holy Spirit is what convicts a man of his sin.

I think the misunderstanding here is due to different meanings of the word "guilt". Guilt feelings in a Christian are the result of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Guilt (as in innocent or guilty) refers to the judged state of our spirit. As far as actual guilt, the Bible says that God has forgiven us Christians of our sins and remembers tehm no more. So, in God's eyes we are blameless. Guilt-free.
 
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Ben johnson

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I think, actually, we all are closer to agreement on this than you might think...

When we become Christian, the "old nature" dies, the "new nature is born". Why? What is the process, what accomplishes this, where is the power? Back to the "heart-of-salvation" question.

A man or woman becomes a Christian, by receiving Christ (Jn1:12, Col2:6). The old nature is dead, by virtue of our walking in Christ and the Spirit (Col2:6, Rm8:5-11).

This is the power, the impetus of our being "born again"---Jesus IN US. Now, the question is simply, do we have the ability to later reject Jesus? Hebrews 10 is but one passage that screams, "YES!". JESUS is our "confidence that enters the holy place". And 10:35 says, "DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE".

Very many passage speak the same thing. We come to God by belief/faith/receiving-Christ, completely free will. And we abide there by completely free will. We are given so many warnings and admonishments to "make certain that we exhibit fruit commensurate with having-been-saved"

"Therefore, as you have received Christ, SO WALK IN HIM..."

But if it is possible for a TRUE CHRISTIAN to be decieved by sin, to be hardened thereby, (as so many passage have plainly said---I listed over two dozen of them), in falling away from the living God, then there is absolutely no option but to believe that the old-sin-nature, can-and-DOES live again.

The old-nature dies by virtue of and totally predicated upon our belief/faith/receiving/abiding-in Jesus.
 
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Ben johnson

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Ro 6:2* God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Either we believe it or we don't.
That is the point. Either we believe or we don't. If the "new-nature" removed the "old", and "its propensity for sin", then why does Paul word it thus: "THerefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present youreselves to God as those alove from the dead... What then, shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey---either of in resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin you became slaves to righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh..."

THis whole passage (in Romans 6) harmonizes with chapter 8, where "we pursue sinlessness because of our obedience from our hearts" (6:17), so that we "do not walk in sin but in righteousness, through Christ". Where is the absence of free will in this? Where is the absence of the old-sinful-nature"? It seems to me, rather, that Paul is admonishing us to put to DEATH the old nature, DAILY, and live not-according-to-the-flesh, but according-to-the-Spirit...

:)
 
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LouisBooth

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ahh..but there you have it ben, there is Once saved always saved, or preservation of the saints inherent in that view. a new creation cannot become the old creation, just act like it and slow down or stop the sanctification process, not repent of salvation. :)
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
ahh..but there you have it ben, there is Once saved always saved, or preservation of the saints inherent in that view. a new creation cannot become the old creation, just act like it and slow down or stop the sanctification process, not repent of salvation. :)
That's what I've been saying also, Louis. You and I believe that the old nature was completely destroyed the moment we became Christians (New Creations!). We believe that nothing can add to that work; it is completed.

But Ben thinks that the old nature is dead, but only if we continue to walk in the spirit:

The old nature is dead, by virtue of our walking in Christ and the Spirit.

I think this is a very big difference in the way we all see OSAS. By virtue of what you and I believe, it would be impossible for a Christian to lose his salvation, because he would first have to become his old self again, losing the new creation, and the dead sin nature would somehow have to be resurrected in him. And that's impossible.

As long as we don't see eye to eye on this very important issue, I think this argument will go on and on and on.
 
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Ben johnson

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I think this is a very big difference in the way we all see OSAS. By virtue of what you and I believe, it would be impossible for a Christian to lose his salvation, because he would first have to become his old self again, losing the new creation, and the dead sin nature would somehow have to be resurrected in him. And that's impossible.
Soooo, what were youse guys' takes on my post on page 7, #61, top-of-page?
 
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