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OSAS--Tough passages explained

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Andrew, Apr 18, 2002.

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  1. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    I am not offended, my brother. We disagree on this issue; I do not take it personally. But thanks for checking on that.

    Do I think it's possible for a Christian to commit a horrible act? Well, I know it is possible for a Christian to sin. All sin is against the will of God, so all sin has the same consequence, so it must all be horrible in His sight. So guess I do say that a Chjristian can commit a horrible act. But thank God for the death of his son Jesus Christ, who saves us from being slaves to sin, and frees us from teh consequence and power thereof.

    I definitely do not think Adolf Hitler was saved. he may have "claimed" to be at some times, but that means squat. Christ says that many will come to him saying "Lord, Lord".

    I do not "live in sin". Sometimes my flesh sins, but my spirit never sins against God, because my spirit is now joined with Christ, and my new nature is the "nature of Christ". "Living in sin" is describing people who are still "slaves" to sin; ie, unregenereated, still having a sin nature - non Christians. And Paul makes it very clear that Christians are no longer slaves to sin. What that means is that because nonChristians do not have the Holy Spirit within them, they are of their father, the Devil. Christians, who have the Holy Spirit, are of their father, God. The Spirit within a Christian wants to walk in a holy manner; the Spirit urges a Christian on to do the will of God. Everything within a Christian's new nature wants to be pleasing to God. The problem comes from external sources, not internal sources. When a Christian sins, it is not because something “within” him wants to sin…it is because he has given in to the temptation that Satan and his demons whisper into his ears and mind. Satan loves to lie to us. He says “oh, I know you’re a Christian, but you’re also just a man. These impure thoughts are just natural. You’ll struggle with them all your life”. He convinces us that the evil somehow exists in us, that we’ve got two natures fighting against each other. But if we believe that, we are doomed to a victoryless life , because we are convinced that we are somehow fighting against ourselves -and that is a battle taht can't be won. It's a rioller coaster existence; up one minute from victory, down the next minute because of giving in to temptation. But Christ says “Don’t listen to Satan. If it were not possible for you to be holy, I would not have told you to be holy. You are a new creation…I live in you now, not Satan!” As Christians, we have no identity outside of Christ. And if we commit sin, it is simply our flesh sinning because the brain and heart have bought into Satan’s temptaions. The part of us that commits sin is just the shell. Who we really are –our spirit- has been made new and is completely forgiven and perfect. Sometimes, we choose in our brain and minds to ignore the Spirit and walk in the flesh, thereby totally acting against our new nature, which is that of Christ.
  2. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    Well, we don't agree on this point either. I believe there are differing degrees of sin. This fundamental difference will keep us from moving further.

    We will find out in Heaven one day who was right, I suppose. :D See ya.
  3. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    This is something my friend wrote on the subject:

    "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." [Acts 17:10-11]

    What does "once saved always saved" mean? Is it something that the Bible supports? The phrase "once saved always saved" cannot be found in Scripture, neither is the phrase "lose your salvation" found anywhere in Scripture. So which is correct? Surely one of the beliefs has to be correct. We can know by considering what God's Word says. With the insight of Gods Spirit, reading His Word, He will speak to us. We must first define what Salvation is.

    Salvation is received as a free gift of God's grace through faith in Christ. Salvation is eternal life. God says in Scripture:

    [JOHN 10:28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    [ROMANS 6:23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    So Scripture does make it clear that this gift is an eternal gift. What does "eternal" mean? Websters defines eternal as:

    "Without End. Seeming to have no end."

    Scripture seems to have the same definition as described again in John 10:28 (as already quoted above "..and they shall never perish").

    So therefore, "eternal" could be applied to the following diagram.

    This line is eternal (Symbolized by the arrows)


    It has no end, in other words it will never perish. "eternal life" would be a strange description of something that didn't last forever, wouldn't it?

    It could hardly be "eternal life" if one could have it today and not have it tomorrow. But then this might bring us to another question. Do we really have it now or is it something we get later?

    [1 JOHN 5:11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    Scripture says that we currently have God's precious gift of salvation. All we must do is simply ask for it....

    [MATTHEW 7:7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

    Once we ask, eternal life is immediately given to us in the present. In fact, we are even told that we currently know that we have it.

    [1 John 5:13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    So, we don't become his children in eternity, but here and now, the moment we put our faith in Christ. The One who is the truth cannot lie, therefore we have complete confidence that it is impossible for Christ's sheep to ever perish. (See John 10:28) Once we become His, He keeps us and will never let us perish.

    Is the line below eternal? (Symbolized by broken places)

    <- - - - - - - - -------- - - ------ - -->

    In Geometry, the above could not be classified as a line, for a line is unbroken and continuous. So if it is possible to ever have "eternal life", then not have it -- Then simply by definition It is not "eternal".

    Is this promise of us "never perishing" backed up and supported by other verses? Or is there another meaning behind "Eternal Life"? Let's consider some other verses which might seem to contradict themselves.

    [1 Corinthians 6:9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

    This is plainly spoken, no hidden meaning. The "Unrighteous" will not enter God's Kingdom period, No Exceptions.

    What makes a person unrighteous? Scripture goes on to tell us:

    (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) 9 neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    This is pretty plain. No unrighteous person shall enter heaven. Now who are the unrighteous? Everyone....... Is there any person who is righteous?

    [Romans 3:10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    So, all of us are unrighteous? Yes.... So how can we enter into heaven? It is nothing that we've done. for we've only done evil and unrighteous things. But Jesus is righteous. He washed us. These things have still caused us to be sinners but Christ's blood justified us. It is what He did that sanctifies us.

    [1 Corinthians 6:10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    So, even though we are sinners, Jesus has washed us in his blood, making us righteous. Notice it is not in what we do that maintains our righteousness, but it is entirely in what Jesus did. But, being righteous, what if we sin? Does a sin cause Jesus's blood to be of no effect, have we become unrighteous again?

    [1 JOHN 2:1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

    We are asked not to sin. We are to be Holy as Christ is holy. Is it possible to never sin again? Perhaps... What if one does sin?

    [1 John 2:1] And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    Notice that Jesus Christ advocates for us when we sin. That is because we have trusted in him, and he knows we will not continue in sin. What is Jesus advocating? Notice that in the same verse it calls Jesus Christ, the righteous one. Therefore as a righteous person he advocates our righteousness, based on His righteousness. Does a sin stop Christ from advocating? Is God suddenly not appeased anymore?

    [1 John 2:2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Propitiation means "to make favorable or appease" Christ's completed work on the cross appeases the Father on our behalf. Notice, it does not say he was the propitiation, but he is. The Greek even uses this wording - "Keeps on appeasing". Why would Jesus do this for us? He does it out of Love. So if we sin, it does not cause us to lose our stautus as children of God, because Christ keeps on advocating on our behalf. So it is like we have never sinned!

    Never Sinned? Is this Scriprutal

    [1JOHN 3:9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

    The Christian does not sin. Can he? of course he can! Or can he?

    [1 JOHN 3:9] for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,

    Now we know it is impossible for every Christian not to ever sin again, so how can Scripture say that whoever is born of God cannot sin? Thats because we have believed on Jesus and his ability to pay our sin debt. Therefore we are made clean, just like we never sinned. Yes, Jesus paid it all! by his one sacrifice, all sins forever, are forgiven to those who are called by his name.

    [Hebrews 10:12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    If it were possible to lose out sanctification, our place in heaven, then it would be necessary to gain it back again and the only way to that is to obtain salvation through Christ again. Is this possible?

    [HEBREWS 6:4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;

    If it were possible for us to "fall away" then Scripture says it is impossible for us to "renew" or gain back "repentance" Why is it impossible to be "renewed" or saved again?

    [HEBREWS 6:6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Getting saved again means that there was a sin which caused Christ's blood to be of no effect. It escaped being covered, because it hadn't been committed as of yet and for it to be covered, Christ would have to die again, which means Christ's blood did not cover all sin. Shame on Christ for having done something so foolish as to die for us after living a perfect life and allowing one small sin to cause his death to be of no good for us. God forbid. He paid it all, forever.

    Paul Later says to the Hebrews

    [HEBREWS 6:9] But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

    He says - You know better than that "we are persuaded better things of you. Better things than what? Concerning things that accompany salvation. What are those things? "Though we thus speak" of. What has Paul been speaking of this whole chapter so far - maturity and falling away. In other words, "falling away" does not "accompany salvation" . " Falling away" is not possible. Salvation is firm and secure. How firm?

    [HEBREWS 6:18] That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation,

    Thats pretty strong and firm. It is impossible for God to lie. And he doesn't lie about our salvation being unsecure.

    [HEBREWS 6:19] Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

    Once we obtain eternal life, we have become a person with a new inheritance. We are new creatures. Scripture describes our new position in many ways. We are, or have:

    1) Born again.......................John 3:3
    2) New Creatures.................2 Corinthians 5:17
    3) The mind of Christ............Philippians 2:15
    4) Believers.........................John 2:22
    5) The Sons of God..............John 1:12
    6) Anointed..........................2 Corinthians 1:21
    7) Baptized..........................1 Corinthians 12:13
    8) His Body..........................Ephesians 1:23
    9) Spiritually Circumsized......Colossians 2:11
    10) Dead to self.....................Colossians 3:3

    Scriptures describes belivers in many, many more different ways. For just these few descriptions, realize what they would be called if such a title could be nullified. If a sin would cause us to lose these titles, we would be.

    1) Dead again
    2) Old new Creatures
    3) Forgot the mind of Christ
    4) Deniers
    5) Disowned
    6) Cast off the anointing
    7) Nullified the baptism
    8) Amputated body
    9) Un- Circumsized ??
    10) Alive to self again

    God's word does not support these titles. How can one be a "Believer" and then reject that which he believes. It doesn't make sense. can one be circumcized and then revert back to the way he was before circumcision? Of course not. Scripture addresses these who have believed on Christ as Believers since they first believed. If you do not believe, you will not see eternal life.

    [JOHN 3:36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

    When does this Scripture apply? If we "believe" when we are young, or "believe" when we are old or "believe at our last breath? Scripture simply says "believe" We can believe at any time in our lives.

    [JOHN 3:15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    Our eternal life is in what Christ did in his completed work on the cross. Of course we sin, but Christ continually keeps us.

    [JUDE 1:24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    Christ keeps us? He sure does. Scripture even says we are "sealed" by him. A seal speaks of protection and/or ownership. So Christ actually owns us. Can this be so? What did he do that gives him ownership over us?

    [1 CORINTHIANS 6:20] For ye are bought with a price:

    We are bought, with his blood. We are now his children. In fact, being former children "of the world" He bought us and therefore adopted us.

    [ROMANS 8:15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    Adopted into God's kingdom. In fact, adoption ties are next to impossible to break. Adoption ties are upheld by the law. When an adoption takes place, even a new birth certificate is made, so that the adoptee will have the adopter's name. Can this tie be revoked? Can out gift of salvation be repented of?

    [ROMANS 11:29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    (end part 1)
  4. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    (part 2, continued from the last post)

    Once we are partakers of Gods gift, and our new calling, they can in no way be repented of. Where does Scripture say we can have our eternal life revoked. Is there anyone who has personally known God, but will not enter the Kingdom? No, Scripture does not tell of those who once knew God, but of those who either know him or never knew him, as described by Jesus at the end of his sermon on the mount.

    [MATTHEW 7:23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These people proclaimed "Lord Lord" and even had done "many wonderful works" but obviously never knew God in a personal way. Take Judas Iscariot for example. Judas was one of the twelve disciples. Certainly he knew Jesus and believed. What does Scripture say?

    [JOHN 6:70] Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    Jesus says he hand picked Judas. Certainly Judas had every opportunity to get to know the Lord in a way many never would, yet he is called a "devil". Perhaps that is because of who Judas really was. He never cared for, loved or even believed on Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

    [JOHN 6:64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

    Judas never believed? No. Scripture never says he did, In fact, look what Judas was concerned with instead:

    * Didn't want to waste ointment on Christ.................John 12:4-5
    * Used position as treasurer to steal........................Matthew 26:6
    * Saw "disciple" as an office, not relationship............Psalm 109:8
    * Called Jesus " Master " instead of "Lord" ...............Matthew 26:25
    * Contracted betrayal of Christ.................................Matthew 26:15
    * Was led of Satan.................................................Luke 22:3
    * Was better off to have never been born...................Matthew 26:24

    This isnt the portrait of someone who Loved their Lord, and then lost their place in the Lamb's book of life. Judas was concerned for himself, and always had been. He never "knew" nor was part of God's family.

    Judas was called the "Son of Perdition".

    [JOHN 17:12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Notice that Christ "Kept the others". The other eleven diciples believed, therefore Jesus "kept" them as members of his own. Would Christ cut off a member of his own body?

    [1 CORINTHIANS 6:15] Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

    Sinning, as a member of Christ, does not bring us into condemnation, but only under chastisement.

    [1 CORINTHIANS 11:32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

    No condemnation? To believers, no.

    [ROMANS 8:1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    We are not free, by any means to do entirely what we want, we are called to be conformed to be like Jesus. If we have accepted Christ and his gift of salvation, God knows we will seek him, but we are still prone to sin. God knows all things and somehow uses even that which displeases him, to continue to teach and conform us.

    [ROMANS 8:28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    If we are truly the called, and die with a sin on our shoulders, would going to hell be the good workings of "his purpose"? No, hell is judgement unto condemnation, Heaven is a gift of love unto life eternal, which was given to us by Christ's death on the cross. He died once for all, for sins forever. It is he who obtained and retains our salvation. All we must do is to believe on him. His love does the rest. Calls us, Keeps us, saves us, redeems us. How did we ever get such opportunity to be objects of Gods love? Who shall separarte us from that relationship? Not a soul, not even ourselves.

    [ROMANS 8:38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Do you know Jesus personally? Be assured He will Never leave you nor forsake you. You are eternally his always!

    2 Timothy 3:16
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Only the GIVER of a gift has the ability to repent of giving it. Some translations use, "irrevocable", because they understand that the action here is entirely from God. Thus, GOD will never repent of nor revoke the gift.

    Does this preclude OUR ability to REJECT the gift?


    And Peter says, "the inheritance is enternal and undefiled and will never perish", but he also says "it is reserved in Heaven for us" (1:1:4) But, what of our GRASP of that inheritance? Our GRASP is called, "salvation". John says, "he who HAS the Son has the life, I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life." But what if one walks away, and no longer has the Son? Does he still have the life?

    This thread begins as "tough OSAS passages explained". I just posted on another forum, I would like to copy here what I posted. I give you a list, of more than two dozen verses, that I do not think can be explained by OSAS people. I would really like to have these "tough passages" explained to me, in accomodation of OSAS: (They are listed in a semblance of order---#1 goes with #2, if "#1-abiding in Him is salvation", then what of "#2-not-abiding"? #7 goes with #8---that it is POSSIBLE to fall from steadfastness)
    If you intend to argue from the NEGATIVE-RHETORICAL-HYPOTHETICAL position, IOW, "oh he's just being OBLIQUE, it can't REALLY HAPPEN but he's just saying WHAT IF for EMPHASIS", then defend the RHETORICAL understanding, instead of it SIMPLY STATING THE FACTS:

    1. "Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus, in Jn15:4-6

    (In case you think ABIDING IN HIM is not salvation, please read 1Jn4:15-16)

    2. "Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes to far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 (See 1Jn5:12-13)

    (In case you think "reward" can never mean "Heaven ITSELF", please see Col3:23-24: "Whatever you do, do heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men; knowing that from the Lord you will receive THE REWARD OF THE INHERITANCE". The INHERITANCE is HEAVEN {1Pet1:4})

    3. "Therefore DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, YOU MAY RECEIVE THE PROMISE." Heb10:35-36 (Exactly what is "THE PROMISE"? It is ETERNAL LIFE! 1Jn2:25!!!)

    3½. When you combine Heb10;35, With 10:19, "Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, ...let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water... Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering..." Those two together, seem iron-clad <b>against OSAS</b>. Our confidence is through the blood of Jesus, by which we now enter the Holy Place (WITH/THROUGH Him---see Heb6:19-20). I do not find it even remotely conceivable to "tag" this as "another negative-rhetorical-hypothetical couldn't REALLY HAPPEN". It says, "DON'T THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE, DON'T THROW AWAY JESUS!"

    4. "How much severer punishment do you think he will receive, he who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb10:29 (Can anyone who was NEVER SAVED, have BEEN sanctified by His blood? No!)

    5. "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

    6. "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, while it is still called "today", lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end." Heb3:12-14

    7. "Although you were formerly alienated and hostile, doing evil deeds, yet now He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach---if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel…" Col1:22-23
    (The HOPE of the Gospel, is JESUS---1Tim1:1---"not moved away from JESUS!")

    8. "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18 (Didn't #7, Col1:23, say IF you CONTINUE in steadfastness???)

    9. "For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

    10. "Keep standing firm, and do not be SUBJECT AGAIN to a yoke of slavery. Every man who receives circumcision (towards justification), is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you who would be justified by law, you have FALLEN FROM GRACE." Gal5:1-4

    11. "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

    12. "He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, 10:22, Mk13:13.

    13. "By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

    14. "Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… " 1Timothy 1:18-20

    15. "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience..."
    1Timothy 4:1-6:

    16. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

    17. "My brethren (Christians?), if any of YOU strays from the truth (falls from salvation?), and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul (Greek: "Psuche" {Rev20:4}) from DEATH (Greek: "Thanatos"---death-and-HELL), and covered a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20
    (Contrast this with James 2:26, "spirit" is "Pnuema", "death" is "nekros"…)

    18. "But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

    19. "do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined". 1Corinthians 8:9-13

    20. "Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

    21. "For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful---for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13, Matt10:32-33. (If we deny Him, will we still reign with Him? If we are faithless, can we faithlessly still go to Heaven?)

    22. "Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1

    23. "Beware your adversary the devil, who prowls the world like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1Pet5:8 To what group of people was that written??? (1Pet5:1)

    24. "Let us lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the AUTHOR (Greek: 'Archegos'---leader) and finisher (Greek: "Teleiotes"---perfecter by example) of faith; …for consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart." Heb12:1-3

    13. "If, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they become again entangled in them and overcome, the second state is worse than the first. Far better to have never KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than having known, to turn away from the holy commandment." 2Pet2:20-21 Why are the "escaped from world-corruption through true knowledge of Lord & Savior Jesus", from 2Pet1:3-4 SAVED (and they undeniably are), but the "escaped world-defilements through true knowledge of Lord & Savior Jesus" from 2Pet2:20-21, WERE NEVER SAVED? They both use "Apopheugo-ESCAPED", they both use "Epignosis-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE", they both say "…of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ"? Why is the first group saved but the second is not?
  6. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    Ben, in another thread, some of us already addressed many of the verses you posted against OSAS. After the weekend is over, I will try to find the verse that we didn't address.

    However, in that same thread, I also pointed out many verses which none of the non OSASers addressed.

    And still, no one has told me how it is possible for a new creation to become an old creation again, or how the sin nature that has been crucified can somehow come back to life again. Oh, someone misquoted 2 Cor 5:17 as 'the old is passing away", but that is definitely misquoted. I have not been able to find one translation that says "passing away" (present tense) instead of "passed away" or "is gone" (past tense). The KJV, New KJV, NIV, NAS and New Living all indeed have it in the past tense.
  7. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    As a new creation you are made an adopted son of the Father, but like the Prodigal Son, we can leave and squander our inheritance. God doesn't take away our free will at our conversion. We can still reject Him. That is why Peter said it will be worse for the one who has known the way and rejected it. In that case it isn't just any Joe off of the street rejecting the Father, it is one of his Children! One who was sealed, marked to receive the ultimate gift, but who rejected it.

    God doesn't condemn His Children, but they can Condemn themselves.

  8. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    Hi Neal,
    No, God doesn't take away our free will at conversion. We can still choose to supress the Holy Spirit, and walk in the flesh. But as Christians, it is not in our nature to wlak in the flesh, so we are going against our very own nature by disobeying the Holy Spirit, which takes up residence within us.
    The new creation concept isn't simply that of someone becoming a child of God. It involves being given a totally new spirit (nature), and having the old sin nature crucified - destroyed. That is not an ongoing process, by the way: it was done once - at conversion. So, is it possible for that which is crucified-which has been destroyed- to somehow come back to life? If that's possible, how?
  9. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    I agree that at Baptism we die with Christ and arise reborn, but that rebirth is a renewal of our original, created nature. Through Christ, the New Adam, we can be restored and begin our growth in holiness, our sanctification. At our conversion we are cleansed and are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, a gift that Adam and Eve were born with. Imagine that...they were born under Grace, they had no natural desire to sin like we do, and yet they did and here we are; sinful creatures.

    When they fell from Grace, we fell with them. Their loss was ours. Thanks be to God, though, that a New Adam came, a faithful Adam, and that through His faithfulness, we can be restored. So long as we accept His sacrifice, it will cover us. If we reject it, though, there is no other way to have Life. That is what Paul meant when he said:

    The person Paul is speaking about has been sanctified through the sacrifice of Christ. But he has since rejected that sacrifice through sin. Notice, though, it is not just any sin, but a deliberate sin: a mortal sin. Through this, we can reject the sacrifice of Christ, His intercession, and His Spirit that adopts and dwells within us. We can, like Adam, fall from grace.

  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Neal, you hafta actually go to the GREEK in Heb10:26 to fully assert its meaning. The "OSAS" argument is that they "had HEAD-KNOWLEDGE, but weren't SAVED". "Received" here is "lambano", which is "receive/take-hold-of/take-upon-ones'self"; "knowledge" is "epignosis", which is used in every case to infer "true knowledge of the Savior", "truth" is "Aletheia" which is "the truth/the Gospel/Christ". So it reads, "If we SIN WILFULLY after RECEIVING TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST (ie BECOME CHRISTIAN), there no longer remains a sacrifice..." As you said, verse 29 says the person in question WAS sanctified THROUGH JESUS' BLOOD, he was undeniably saved.

    Now, technically, this passage is a WARNING, so this person in question is not a SPECIFIC person, but it is couched as a warning---for us not to BE that person. Which contextually is very much possible.

    "DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE! Which enters the holy place by the blood of Jesus! But HOLD FAST the confession of our hope WITHOUT WAVERING! You have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised (HEAVEN)!" OSAS simply does not exist here.
    Yes we have, at least 3 or 4 times recently. But you are not open to hearing it. But I'm happy to provide it again...

    What is salvation? Salvation is "born again", it is "FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus", it is "abiding in Him and He in you", it is "crucified with Christ no longer us who lives but Christ in us", it is "receiving Christ as Savior AND Lord", all of these things (which all really say the same). How did we become a "New Creation"? By recieving Christ, through our own faith. The old nature revives, and/or we reject Jesus, by ceasing to believe, ceasing to surrender to His Lordship, by returning to sinning wilfully. But I cannot say it as well as Scripture does:

    "Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."

    "Each one is tempted when he is carried away by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is accomplished it brings forth death."

    "For if we sin wilfully after receiving true knowledge of Jesus, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire."

    "For if, after having TRULY ESCAPED ('Ontos Apophuego', 2Pet2:18) through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ (2:2:20), they are again entangled and overcome, the second state is worse than the first. Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than after KNOWING it, to turn from the holy commandment."

    "For in the case of those who had ONCE been enlightened, have tasted of the heavnenly gift and have been made METOCHOS-PARTAKERS-OF (indwelt by) the Holy Spirit, if they THEN fall away, it is ADUNATOS-WEAK-WITHOUT_POWER-IMPOSSIBLE to restore them to repentance, SINCE/SEEING-AS/BECAUSE (while-they-ARE-FALLING) they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him in contempt."

    "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace. However, you are not IN the flesh but in the SPIRIT, if the Spirit of God dwells (abides) in you. So then, BRETHREN, we are under obligation NOT TO LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, but to live according to the Spirit. For if you live by the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, AND YOU WILL LIVE."

    "Therefore endure, be diligent, do not throw away your confidence, abide in Him, do not go too far and NOT-ABIDE, do not be deceived by sin and doctrines of demons, but grow in Christ, persevere, be watchful, wary of your adversary the devil-roaring-devouring-lion, do not stumble (Greek: "Ptaio"---become WRETCHED!), by your faith/endurance/belief/abiding you will save-your-souls" (many verses in this one...)

    Does that answer your question? Salvation is IN CHRIST. "BOrn Again" is a "new creation" by HIS presence in us, because of fellowship; if we walk away, if we cease "putting to death the flesh", if we "sin wilfully after HAVING RECEIVED THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST", then we fall and perish. Scripture is clear. As I posted the verses in the list above. I hope you will not pass over any, but explain each, even if you have already before. If you take the "oblique-negative-hypothetical-rhetorical-DIDN'T-REALLY-MEAN-WHAT-HE-WROTE" argument, please support it Scripturally. If you say, "They weren't really saved in the first place", please support that too...

  11. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    You know, I thought about that after I wrote my post. Also, Paul probably didn't even write Hebrews, but I was too lazy to correct that, too. Thanks for pointing that out. Sloppiness is a bad thing.

    Thanks for the short lesson, Ben. A very good friend of mine likes to use the word lambano a lot, so I am a little familiar it. To see it in context helps.

    Please, post frequently, I am learning a lot :)

    Your friend,

  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Hi, Neal! Who do you think wrote Hebrews?

    Don'tchya wish we had a copy of Paul's letter to Laodecia (Col4:16)?

  13. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    No Ben, you haven't. All you have said is "you can fall away and lose salvation by ceasing to believe or by ceasing to put to death the flesh, etc." My question is much more specific than that; You have not explained how it is spiritually or physically possible for something which is destroyed(Christ crucified the sin nature) to somehow return to life. Maybe the problem here is that maybe you see "being given a new nature" as "being given a makeover (ie: given a pretty new face, but the wrinkles still exist underneath)". If that is how you see it, I can see that it is possible that the makeup could be washed away. But I see "new creation" as being totally new. The old is gone, dead, destroyed. How can it come back to life? It can't. It doesn't have the resurrection power of Jesus.
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Then why all of the warnings to "endure to the end"? And "be diligent"? And "do not throw away your confidence"? And "abide in Jesus"? And "do not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to falling away from the living God"?

    It seems to me, that you are saying "he who is born again receives a new nature, which is completely walking with God, divinely installed, Christ-like"? Do you believe that? If that new nature is "Christ-like", then we need not worry about anything from now on. We will be in God's perfect will, for we have God's pure nature in us and our own old nature ceases to exist. We will commit no sins, none-at-all, for now we have God's nature instead of our own and sin simply isn't possible (1Jn3:9). We will never stumble, we will walk in perfect fellowship and know the mind of God completely because, for us personally, "the perfect has come". There is no need for us to "pray for strength" (Lk21:36), for with our new nature we could not be stronger. Stand? How could we not? Only the OLD nature makes us capable of falling---and we have an un-fallible-new-nature.

    Does the Bible teach this? Or does the Bible present us with warnings AGAINST falling? I think, the latter. As in those 24+ verses that I posted. Very stern warnings for us TO persevere, stand, endure, abide-in-Him-until-the-end, keep ourselves in His love, onandon...

    The New Testament screams in every letter for us to CHOOSE to walk in righteousness, striving towards Christ-likeness, to "be FILLED with the Spirit" (definitely a choice---Eph5:18), to "abide-in-Him"---in short, to abide in salvation.

    It's not "a new face over the old wrinkles", it's "a new face because of Him-in-our-hearts, but if we forsake Him the old face will return"...

    OR, if I am wrong, then help me to understand each of those 24+ verses, how they really support "OSAS"...

  15. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    Theough Christ's death and resurrection we are renewed, reborn into the life that was ours before the fall. Just as Adam had Life then forsaked it, we can too. We have life only because Christ dwells in us and He is the source of that life. Christ's victory is ours as long as we abide in Him. Jesus, the Pascal Lamb, sits in front of the Father, still slain, still making intercession for us through His Sacrifice when his faithful fail. We are adopted sons through Christ who has conquered sin, and inasmuch as we abide in Him, we can be cleansed of our sins through our repentance. If we reject Him, though, that nature which we had before, the same one that came into existence through Adam's sin can again be made manifest in us through our sins. Adam wasn't born with a sin nature, he allowed his purity to become tainted. The same is true for those of us who fall away from Christ. Just as Adam was pure and then became stained through sin, so can we be.

    God Bless,

  16. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    Definately! Don't you know there were many letters that were lost. I would love to read them. Have you read Ignatius or Clement? They were definately direct disciples of the Apostles. Those great men Peter and John passed on their teaching well :)

    As to Hebrews authorship, it is hard to tell. It very well could be Pauline. The Church of Alexandria believed it to be written by him from the early second century on, and they were in a much better position to know than I am.

    So much common "scholarship" discounts the direct words of the Early Fathers who were in a good position to know who the Authors were. Take Matthew. Like the Early Fathers, I wholeheartedly believe it was the first Gospel of the Canon to be written, and that it was done in Aramaic. Because of that, I reject the Marcan-Quelle Derivitive theory, but many modern scholars support M-Q. It doesn't matter a whole lot to me at this point whether it was Barnabas, Aquilla, Apollos or Paul who wrote Hebrews. It is in the Canon, and that to me says God approves of it :)

    God bless, Ben.

  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Heh heh! Touche'. And it is Hebrews that is perhaps the greatest "thorn" in the "OSAS" argument.

    BTW, I hope you didn't take my earlier post as critical of you---it was not. I endorsed what you said, intended to compliment it. I very much enjoy your posts, you are very wise.

    OSAS people are also sincere, God-loving-folks; my only desire is to convey the Scriptural premise that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus". In that, I wish to make their Christian walk better, closer to Him.

    And in "contending for the faith", iron sharpens iron---we all emerge brighter and more polished. That's the intent, anyway...

  18. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    Eastern Orthodox
    Thanks for the compliment, but I've got a long way to go. I'm only 22 :)

    I never understood anything you said as critical and I hope I didn't convey the idea that I did. You are always amazingly respectful, even when it isn't returned. Your sincerity, humility, and charity shine through in your posts. It is hard not to argue with those who hold opposing views, but to share instead. There is a fine line sometimes and I feel you walk it well.

    God Bless, my friend,

  19. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    Ben, what I am about to tell you, I have told nonOSASers before and I am tired of explaining this over and over again. I do not believe that Christians will not sin. I have never said that. It's simply not Biblical. I have said from the beginning that I believe the spirit in a Christian is absolutely completely perfected. However, the flesh and heart are still corrupted. Demons tempt Christians. They tell us to do something against God's will, and sometimes we listen. However, that is not who we really are, and when we do sin, we are going against the Holy Spirit which now lives in us. In fact, the way the demons really get Christians is by telling them "hey, these are your wicked thoughts, these are your evil desires, but it is natural, because you are just a sinner", and "hey, you're struggling with your old sin nature here. You'll never win". Christians buy into that, because that's what they've been taught all their lives from pulpits and Sunday School teachers. They believe the lies, and they fall. Yes, Christians sin, but it is because they give into temptations in their hearts from demons and Satan. The temptation does not originate from within themselves. I have a loathing for the dual nature theory. I believed in dual natures for most fo my Christian live (and I've been a Christin for 22 years). It is a lie that only served to make me weak and ineffectual, and brought me defeat upon defeat, even though Christ has already provided victory.
    I'll get to the other stuff after the weekend.
  20. Slave2SinNoMore

    Slave2SinNoMore Active Member

    There is a big difference between Adam and us. Adam was created pure and chose to sin. We were born with a sin nature, and of course chose to sin. That's Biblical. We were not born pure. Therefore, when we become Christians, we become totally new creations, because we were never righteous in the first place.

    And yes, Christ does still make intercession for us; He is still our advocate. But not as the slain Lord, rather as the Risen Lord! Christ doesn't offer himself up continuously. That part of the job is over. The victory has been won already!
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