OSAS--Tough passages explained

[Andrew]

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/eternalsecurity.html

 

[VOW]

To Andrew:

Please understand that YOUR interpretation of Scripture to support the OSAS concept is strictly that, YOUR INTERPRETATION. To set yourself up as the be-all, end-all authoritative last word is not proper.

Judging another's SALVATION by your interpretation is also way out of line.

A person who has been shown the way of righteousness -- Jesus Christ -- yet turn his back on the Saviour, is obviously not a Christian!

Who's to say that someone is not a true, heartfelt, committed Christian and has not made a bonecrunching fall from Grace? The solution is to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and then avail yourself to the ever present gift of Grace again.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"Judging another's SALVATION by your interpretation is also way out of line. "

Hmm..well since we can claim as the catholic church does, that there is a history(short one, but its there) of this proper translation, then I think its quite alright to say this is the correct interpretation.

"Who's to say that someone is not a true, heartfelt, committed Christian and has not made a bonecrunching fall from Grace? "

Its written in John that the sheep don't follow anyone else's voice. They obey the master

 

[Andrew]

Please understand that YOUR interpretation of Scripture to support the OSAS concept is strictly that, YOUR INTERPRETATION. To set yourself up as the be-all, end-all authoritative last word is not proper.

Judging another's SALVATION by your interpretation is also way out of line.
----------------------

What nonsense are u talking about VoW??

This is NOT just MY interpretation. My Pastor and my 7000-strong church is behind it. So are millions of enlightened Christians who believe in OSAS.

And since when did I "set yourself up as the be-all, end-all authoritative last word"?? I'm just sharing my views here and not forcing it down anybody's throat. If anyone is setting himself as the be-all and end-all authority in interpretation, it's the Pope!

And since when did I go around judging other people's salvation? I said clearly in my first pa that many a times, we cant tell and that only God knows.

Please watch your words and read carefully b4 you reply.

ps: do you even know what fall from grace means in the Bible? It's when we go back under works/rituals to help God save us. It's not when we fall into sin. That's when we fall INTO grace.

 

[VOW]

To Andrew:

Your original post came through loud and clear that you were here "to explain the tough passages on OSAS." That sounds like you are setting up yourself as an authority.

And while I appreciate your pastor and his 7000-strong congregation, my "viewpoint" happens to be the teaching of the Catholic Church, which has a 2000-year history to draw from. Don't dismiss the Pope so lightly, either, for he is from a long, long line of Apostolic Succession, dating back to Peter.

OSAS is a concept. There is another concept, and that is the teaching of the Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth," according to 1 Timothy 3:15.

And I do watch very carefully what I post.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Andrew]

"Your original post came through loud and clear that you were here "to explain the tough passages on OSAS."

Are you for real? Isnt this a Bible Studies section for Christians as (opposed to Catholics)?

Aren't Christians allowed to discuss passages in the Bible here, which would logically include interpretation? How can discussion take place if interpretation is not allowed???

You mean to tell me the Christians here have no right to interpret the Bible for themselves and that only your Pope is allowed too? And that only the Catholic church's interpretation is correct?

Is this section a Christian Bible studies one or a Catholic's one??

 

[VOW]

FYI, Andrew:

Catholics are most certainly Christians!

The Bible isn't limited to ONLY non-Catholics; the fallacy that Catholics are not permitted to read the Bible is a myth. You are welcome to YOUR interpretation, however, my point is that your interpretation is not the absolute, there are others.

My posting in this thread is to make the statement, OSAS is one point of view, and people can know there is another.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Andrew]

Of course I am entitled to my interpretation and you to yours. But it was WRONG of you to accuse me of this:

"To set yourself up as the be-all, end-all authoritative last word is not proper." since when did i do this???

and this:

"Judging another's SALVATION by your interpretation is also way out of line." Who's salvation have I judged here.

You are way out of line. If you cannot even see or admit your mistake, then I will ignore you.

 

[VOW]

To Andrew:

If I misinterpreted your words, I do apologize. That has never been my intention.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
Don't dismiss the Pope so lightly, either, for he is from a long, long line of Apostolic Succession, dating back to Peter.

VOW, before I ask, let me clarify something:

I am just asking a question for information. I am not attacking Catholicism.

On what scriptural authority does the RCC say they are the church through which Peter's authority is passed?

Again, I am just looking for clarification, not attacking.

Thanks for your insight.

There is another concept, and that is the teaching of the Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth," according to 1 Timothy 3:15.

C'mon VOW. Your obvious implication here is that because the RCC teaches a certain concept that it is true because the RCC is "the pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Timothy doesn't say anything about the RCC. I could name my church "the house of God" but that no more makes it the "pillar and foundation of truth" than you saying Timothy was talking about the RCC.

God bless.

 

[LouisBooth]

"That sounds like you are setting up yourself as an authority. "

Umm...VOW, for someone that adheres strictly to oral traditon, ya should have known better then for someone to just make something up and say, its just me. Hey, *breathes and offers a hand* Ya'll catholics are still cool

 

[VOW]

To Louis:

VOW, for someone that adheres strictly to oral traditon

Ahhhh, Louis, you know better. It's the ORIGINAL DEPOSIT OF FAITH, which is Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Gotta have both, you see!!



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LouisBooth]

"It's the ORIGINAL DEPOSIT OF FAITH, which is Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. Gotta have both, you see!! "

But you misunderstand the logic that I was pointing to...oh well

 

[Lion Heart]

Originally posted by Andrew
Of course I am entitled to my interpretation and you to yours. But it was WRONG of you to accuse me of this:

"To set yourself up as the be-all, end-all authoritative last word is not proper." since when did i do this???

and this:

"Judging another's SALVATION by your interpretation is also way out of line." Who's salvation have I judged here.

You are way out of line. If you cannot even see or admit your mistake, then I will ignore you.

Andrew, Good post

2 Pet 1
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Today anyone who gives out GODS Word is prophecying. And you've certainly given it out.

Those who reject the pure word, reject it because they have first rejected the messenger.

The Gospel is simple, and when communicated simply, it can be understood by the simple.

2 Cor 3
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2 Cor 4
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness , nor handling the word of God deceitfully;

contrasted;

1 Cor 3
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


The Word of God will be rejected until the end, for this reason; it is hated, among the wise of the world. And thereby hidden from them.



2 Cor 4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Let me encourage you to continue, in mining His WORD.




Blessings, RICHARD

 

[tericl2]

Ditto what Lionheart said. I don't often post just to say "good post", but your post here is well worth an "atta boy"!

Anyway, great post! God Bless

 

[Caedmon]

Hmmm... I think that OSAS is an adequate belief, but a better understanding is that of Perseverance of the Saints.

OSAS says, theoretically, a person can become saved, and afterwards live a very sinful life, die, and still get to heaven.(Some people would claim that a person wasn't truly saved in a case like this, but I try to refrain from judging other people's salvation.) However, PofS says that any Elect will, eventually, at some point before her death, repent of her sinful disobedience and return to a right relationship with God, in fellowship with Him as she was in the beginning.

(BTW VOW, I'm not directing this toward you :o , just taking a stand against blanket masculine gender writing, hehe. *down with gender bias!* lol)

 

[Andrew]

Humblejoe,
quote: "OSAS says, theoretically, a person can become saved, and afterwards live a very sinful life, die, and still get to heaven."

That's not what OSAS believers are saying at all! (bolded part). If one is truly saved, he can't LIVE IN sin.

Paul had this same problem with his critics. He preached such pure grace that it made his critics say "What! Shall we sin that grace might abound?!" (ie "is grace is a licence to sin?!")

Paul's reply was, of course: "How can we who are dead to sin live in it anymore?"

IOW once you are truly born again, you can't possibly live in sin cos you ARE dead to sin. That's Biblical fact and either one believe its or not. Do we sin, yes, but we dont live in it and do it like there's no tomorow.

That's why when we do sin, we feel awful abt it, guilty, frustrated, etc, cos our new nature doesnt like it.

Someone once said that if the grace message one is preaching does not produce the same kind of criticism Paul received, then it is not the pure grace message that's being preached (ie it's grace plus works). I fully agree.

 

[Caedmon]

But isn't that what "once saved, always saved" implies? Doesn't it imply that once a person is saved, she can, for weakness or whatever reason, go out and commit great sins, but yet still be "[always] saved" and go to Heaven at death? That's what I gather from the wording of "once saved, always saved", as in, "no matter what happens, whether long periods of great sinfulness or great righteousness". If not, then perhaps the wording should be changed. Personally, "Perseverance of the Saints" just sounds more correct to me, since "those that persevere until [or at] the end [of life] will be saved". It just sounds more Scriptural.

 

[Andrew]

quote: "But isn't that what "once saved, always saved" implies?"

no it does not. it's only people who do not understand God's grace who would start thinking about "sinning that grace may abound".

Come on, tell me, you who are born again, do you enjoy sinning? Let's not talk about hypothetical examples or so and so but you.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I just wanted to say that I think that some get the impression that protestants use "their own interpretation" to interpret the bible. This is false. We use 2 things....The Holy Spirit, and the word of God to interpret the bible. We ask ourselves...well what does the bible say about this? Reseearch every single verse and find out WHY some of the verse seem to contradict each other such as these Salvation doctrines.
We believe what the bible says about anything.
The verse that I belive is mistraslated about private interperation is in 2peter.
2 Peter 1:19 _¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 _Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 _For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This means that scripture was NOT written by the will of man, but by the will of God by the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that we need ANY authority to help us understadn what scripture means. It means that scripture is THE FINAL AUTHORITY because it was and is the WILL of GOD!
As the Scripture is the revelation of the mind and will of God, every man ought to search it, to understand the sense and meaning. The Christian knows that book to be the word of God, in which he tastes a sweetness, and feels a power, and sees a glory, truly divine. And the prophecies already fulfilled in the person and salvation of Christ, and in the great concerns of the church and the world, form an unanswerable proof of the truth of Christianity.

The Holy Ghost inspired holy men to speak and write. He so assisted and directed them in delivering what they had received from him, that they clearly expressed what they made known. So that the Scriptures are to be accounted the words of the Holy Ghost, and all the plainness and simplicity, all the power and all the propriety of the words and expressions, come from God. Mix faith with what you find in the Scriptures, and esteem and reverence the Bible as a book written by holy men, taught by the Holy Ghost.
GEL