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Featured OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Nicolaus Mourer

    Nicolaus Mourer Call me Nic. Supporter

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    In fact, what I am doing is spreading the truth of the grace of God, in that, though we are all sinners, and commit sin every day, God's grace abounds toward us through Christ, and that all we need to do to be saved is believe and trust him.

    The person who is a drug addict down my street can receive the gospel and be saved just as much as I can because God is gracious and kind toward all of us sinners; God loves us, and desires us to be saved, and has made it easy to do so. Even if the addict never cleans up his life, God will never take away his salvation because God made him a promise of eternal life upon receiving Christ.

    I am not advocating sin - I am saying sin will not stop the grace of God from saving us if we have faith and trust him. Sin can and will bring upon us chastisement from God, but only to teach us to be a light on a hill and the salt of the earth for others.

    If you wish to have nothing else to do with, that's okay; we'll probably shake hands in heaven some day and everything will be okay.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I believe that when God saves a person from the penalty of his sins He will not neglect to also deliver him from their power.
     
  3. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Do you realize what you are saying? I'm sorry, there is no way sin can even touch God, much less, have Him become sin. You are saying the Almighty Savior was no more than a mere mortal.

    BTW, who saved Jesus from sin? Just imagine, the Savior needing a savior to save Him from sin that He became. This is perhaps worse than anything else you believe. But, if you think Jesus was not upright in His spirit, then I guess you can put Him on man's level and say He was sin.

    That's why you need to be careful what you see other's write. You need to examine everything others wrote. We are told the Lord laid on Him the iniquities of us all, and that He bore our sins, but no where are we told He became sin. What a despicable thought!
     
  4. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    As long as people are people there will never be complete agreement on everything. That is human nature - fallible and limited. All of us are right some of the time and all of us are wrong some of the time. None of us are right all of the time, but it might be possible for someone to be wrong all of the time. The Holy Spirit does not change, but our understanding does change and will only be perfect when we get to heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." There is no way. God has given us His word, which is truth. We can base our faith on it.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    We are told that, in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin: that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1:18-21.
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Luke 13:23-30, Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us: and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    John 10:17-18, Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Acts of the Apostles 2:23-24, Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    A more modern application of this in the church might be for people not to think of themselves as justified by being believers in Jesus Christ; if they do not bear fruits worthy of repentance also. For if anyone is truly in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Therefore if someone says he is in Christ and doesn't bear fruits worthy of repentance, it is as though he is trusting that he is a child of Abraham but does not bear fruits worthy of repentance.

    This is simply not the case. For in the context of John 8:31-36, Jesus says that we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. And in context, this is referring to freedom from the bondage to sin.

    It is not misconstrued. Repent means to turn away from a sinful behaviour pattern.

    This is a misinterpretation of scripture. In Matthew 3:8, obviously John has already been telling them to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; and when he tells them to bear fruits worthy of repentance, it is not the repentance of God that he is speaking of; but the repentance that he is calling them to.

    Proverbs 20:9 and Ecclesiastes 7:20 were written before Jesus even came to earth; to die on the Cross, where His blood was shed and He committed His Spirit into the hands of the Father who then poured it out on the early church: and He has indwelt believers ever since (2 Timothy 1:14). The blood of Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). The verses in question were written before the blood of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost made sanctification possible.

    If walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh is equivalent to being saved by works, then the Bible is internally inconsistent. Read Romans 8. Here we find that walking according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh is something that averts condemnation.

    I disagree. Repent means to turn away from sinful behaviour patterns.

    Look up the word repent in your standard English dictionary, friend.

    Actually, it makes perfect sense for Jesus to be telling them to repent by turning away from sins. He is using them as an example of the judgment that comes on sinners and is telling His audience that they will also have such a fate unless they repent.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I cannot say that I have made my heart pure from sin; but God doing the same is a different story. Repentance is a part of the conditions for salvation, in case you didn't know. All of the verses I quoted in post #974 show this.

    And yet Acts 2:38 is a conditional promise wherein the condition for receiving the Holy Ghost is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. I believe that God placed faith in their hearts as they came up out of the water; as this baptism was a point of contact for their faith, much like the handkerchiefs and aprons in Acts of the Apostles 19:11-12 were points of contact for healing miracles. Through confessing Jesus before men in this baptism that they underwent, they obtained a confession by Jesus to the Father concerning how they belonged to Him. The Christians who dwelt at Ephesus were a different story; or maybe they weren't. They also may have received faith from the Lord upon coming out of the waters of baptism.

    Also, it is clear that the baptism is for "the remission of sins." Therefore, their sins are put in remission and they are not active in the person's life anymore. Repentance means turning away from sin.

    And yet they were told to repent and be converted that their sins might be blotted out, so that times of refreshing might come from the Lord's presence. And repent means repent: to turn away from sin. So then repentance was a condition for their being forgiven.

    Sorry, I lost track of what we were talking about.

    Mark 1:15 does not define what it means to repent. They were told to repent and believe the gospel, and this is speaking of two different things, not the same thing.

    Really? It is adding to scripture to take the word "repent" at face value, as we would interpret it in the English language? Repentance toward God, in this verse, is not = faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. They are separated by the preposition and, which indicates they are two different things.

    I agree with you there. However, I would say that fruit is not the same thing as works. And John the Baptist in Matthew 3:8-12 calls it fruit that is meet for repentance, which defines this verse as referring to works that come from the fruit of repentance, which is spoken of in Galatians 5:22-23, as being in its most basic form the love of God. Tired tonight, so I'm sorry if I'm not communicating with perfect clarity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    deleted. reason: repeated post.
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Of course the inheritance is among them which are sanctified through faith in Christ.

    The will of God is also your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication (1 Thessalonians 4:2-8). And it is also that you should give thanks to God in every thing (1 Thessalonians 5:18). And there are many other things as well that might be counted as the will of the Father. For example, in context of Matthew 7:21-23, abstaining from iniquity might be considered to be the will of the Father.

    Yes, in Titus 3:4-7 we find that it is by His mercy that He has saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. This indicates a change of heart and life, such as what is spoken of in Ezekiel 36:25-27 and 2 Corinthians 5:17.

    And the righteousness of God by faith is attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

    All our righteousnesses that we perform in order to be saved are filthy rags; however the righteousness that is by faith that is done as the result of being saved (1 Thessalonians 1:3) is fine linen (Revelation 19:8).

    wonderful iniquity? Where is your mind? To repent means to turn away from sinful behaviour patterns.

    Actually, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is a promise of God that He will sanctify you wholly if you believe the promise; which means that you have no excuse for living an unsanctified life.

    Amen; however this does not mean that our righteousness is impractical (see Galatians 2:20, Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7)

    No; I am saying that 1 John 3:8-9 trumps those verses because half of them were given before Jesus died on the Cross. And the ones that were given after have explanations. 1 John 1:8 refers to present tense indwelling sin not the committing of sins. And 1 John 1:10 refers to the committing of sins in the past.

    We are not without sin if we're saved. We have indwelling sin. But it is rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24) so that it has no authority over our behaviour any longer. And if you are referring to Romans 7:14-25 to say that Paul sinned after he was saved, you must consider that Paul was using the literary tactic of identification in that scripture, saying that he was "carnal, sold under sin," when he was in fact a holy vessel. He became as weak so that he might gain the weak (1 Corinthians 9:22); and Peter also spoke of this passage as being hard to understand and something that the unlearned and unstable might wrest as they did also with the other scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-17).

    Actually the Holy Spirit convicts the unbelieving of every sin that the unbelieving commit. The point is that those who reject faith cannot be sanctified and therefore they are living unholy lives; and the Holy Spirit convicts them of their unholy behaviour first and foremost. If they choose to have unbelief, he does not convict them of unbelief, he lets them have their choice.

    Also, unbelief and committing sins are very closely related in Hebrews 3:17-19.

    And if someone committed that, the Holy Spirit would not convict them of it because it is the unpardonable sin, and the purpose of conviction is to bring a man to Christ so that he can be forgiven (pardoned).

    I will think about this teaching.

    The way to come to know Christ is to repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood so that you can be delivered from the power of sin (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29, 1 John 1:7). Not just its penalty, but its power (see Matthew 1:21, John 8:31-36, Romans 6:14-23).
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  13. Blood Bought 1953

    Blood Bought 1953 Ned Flander’s Buddy

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    When it comes to insight , old Believers, victims of decades of bad teaching are probably too stiff- necked to entertain any ideas that might question their traditions even if these ideas are EXTREMELY edifying— as these two quotes are if properly understood.Either quote can be googled if one is truly interested.....I wish somebody would have turned me on to these types of worshipful statements when I was a neophyte Believer.....40+ years ago. I would have gotten their points, and there sure ain’t nothing special about me.Lets not underestimate the insight of new Believers
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe that I have seen anyone who changes and twists the words of others to make their fit what they want to believe. The placing of YOUR opinion into the moth of others is really very reprehensible my dear friend.

    Our brother DID NOT say that "Jesus was not upright". YOU SAID THAT is order to cast dispurgeoon unto someone else. Do you really think that is the Christian way to debate and communicate.

    Behold, his soul which is lifted up - literally, swollen

    return to 'Jump List' Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible/
    Also, Adam Clarke Commentary
    Is not upright in him - The construction is probably that of a condition expressed absolutely. Lo, swollen is it, not upright is his soul in him. We should say, “His soul, if it be swollen, puffed up, is not upright in him.” The source of all sin was and is pride. It is especially the sin of all oppressors, of the Chaldee, of antichrists, and shall be of the antichrist. It is the parent of all heresy, and of all corruption and rejection of the gospel. It stands therefore as the type of all opposed to it. Of it he says, it is in its very inmost core (“in him”) lacking in uprightness. It can have no good in it, because it denies God, and God denies it His grace. And having nothing upright in it, being corrupt in its very inmost being, it cannot stand or abide. God gives it no power to stand. The words stand in contrast with the following, the one speaking of the cause of death, the other of life. The soul, being swollen with pride, shuts out faith, and with it the Presence of God. It is all crooked in its very inner self or being. Paul gives the result, Hebrews 10:39, “if any man draw back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.” The prophet‘s words describe the proud man who stunts aloof from God, in himself; Paul, as he is in the Eyes of God. As that which is swollen in nature cannot be straight, it is clean contrary that the soul should be swollen with pride and yet upright. Its moral life being destroyed in its very inmost heart, it must perish.
     
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    It kind of makes you wonder how anyone can miss that fact doesn't it?
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My goodness brother. How can you argue such things as OSAS and not know the Biblical meaning of "will not die"????????

    Surely you are not serious?
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said...………………...
    My friend, you won't find that at all in the Bible. Read the story of the Passover. It does not mention any kind of substitutionary atonement for sins. The story is in Exodus 12; read it.

    And who is Rashi? One who holds to traditions?[/QUOTE]

    God bless your heart brother. You are actually showing everyone on this site the reason why your theology is so wrong. You are doing more to harm your opinions and denounce your false teaching than anyone here who is debating with you.

    I encourage you to do some Christian 101 Basic teaching studies.

    SIMPLY and BIBLICALLY may I help you to understand that when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin and that my dear friend is and always has been SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT!

    Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

    Hebrews 9:22: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

    Early in the Old Testament God introduced this idea of one innocent being shedding its blood in place of the sinner’s.

    However the solution of sacrificing bulls and goats and lambs for the sins of each person’s sin was a temporary fix. The next year, another animal would have to be sacrificed for the same person. A more permanent solution was needed, as noted in Hebrews 10:4 "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

    That meant a human was needed to die for humans’ sin. But all humans are sinful, so another sin-filled person dying for us just wouldn’t work. A human without sin was needed.

    But ever since Adam, every human born is sin-filled, so how could a sinless man happen? The only way was if God did it Himself.

    God Himself became a man: Jesus means “the LORD saves” and died for us in our place. Therefore, anyone who accepts the sacrifice of Jesus on his or her behalf is covered by his blood and is saved.

    Every animal killed and the blood shed was points to the coming of Messiah Jesus which was an ATONMENT FOR SIN.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  18. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Do you say the one lifted up is Jesus, just as this poster does?
     
  19. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    I'm very serious. The wicked who turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, will live, and not die. What does it mean he will not die? Does it mean he has eternal life?
     
  20. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    Now you get to Basics 101. To do that you must start with the first mention of Passover. There you will find no mention of any atonement for sins. You have added this atonement. You take this false premise and run with it, as you have done above.

    Get the foundation built right, before you start building upon it.
     
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