OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[Call me Nic]

I am not puffing myself up. But I believe in the power of God to save us, not only from the penalty of sin but its power. Revelation 3:4 tells me that the overcomers in Sardis are indeed worthy; not in their own strength but because they are clothed in the righteousness of Christ (Revelation 19:8).

And I have not cleaned up my own life; but God has done a work in me and your licentious teaching isn't going to change that.

Pardon me because I am frustrated with you. You have wrapped up licentious teaching in Christian jargon and I have to say that this kind of thing is usually what causes me to fall when I can't answer it; because it is the fear of the LORD that keeps me from sinning: and when teaching comes along that removes the fear of the LORD it irks me because I know that the next thing is for me to fall because the fear of the LORD is like a barrier for me that keeps me from going over the edge.

Consider me to be a weaker brother whose conscience doesn't allow him to sin. Maybe you are a stronger brother whose conscience allows you to sin; but you are causing me to stumble by eating in the idol's temple in front of me; or by saying that it will not hurt me to eat in the idol's temple when my conscience goes against it (see 1 Corinthians 8 to understand what I am saying).

Your flaunting your ability to commit sins of the flesh and have no condemnation may embolden others to commit sins of the flesh when their conscience does not allow them to: and in doing this you sin against Christ because you cause to stumble the weaker brother for whom Christ died; and he may perish because of it.

In fact, what I am doing is spreading the truth of the grace of God, in that, though we are all sinners, and commit sin every day, God's grace abounds toward us through Christ, and that all we need to do to be saved is believe and trust him.

The person who is a drug addict down my street can receive the gospel and be saved just as much as I can because God is gracious and kind toward all of us sinners; God loves us, and desires us to be saved, and has made it easy to do so. Even if the addict never cleans up his life, God will never take away his salvation because God made him a promise of eternal life upon receiving Christ.

I am not advocating sin - I am saying sin will not stop the grace of God from saving us if we have faith and trust him. Sin can and will bring upon us chastisement from God, but only to teach us to be a light on a hill and the salt of the earth for others.

If you wish to have nothing else to do with, that's okay; we'll probably shake hands in heaven some day and everything will be okay.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that when God saves a person from the penalty of his sins He will not neglect to also deliver him from their power.

 

[EmSw]

He became sin for us while He was on the Cross where He died (again, see 2 Corinthians 5:21). Today, He is risen and revived (Romans 14:9).

Do you realize what you are saying? I'm sorry, there is no way sin can even touch God, much less, have Him become sin. You are saying the Almighty Savior was no more than a mere mortal.

BTW, who saved Jesus from sin? Just imagine, the Savior needing a savior to save Him from sin that He became. This is perhaps worse than anything else you believe. But, if you think Jesus was not upright in His spirit, then I guess you can put Him on man's level and say He was sin.

That's why you need to be careful what you see other's write. You need to examine everything others wrote. We are told the Lord laid on Him the iniquities of us all, and that He bore our sins, but no where are we told He became sin. What a despicable thought!

 

[bbbbbbb]

How about when we're all reading the same bible and we don't agree with each other?

Are we all right or are some of us wrong?
Is the same Holy Spirit speaking to all of us?
What should we base what we believe on exactly?
Is it possible that there's another way?

As long as people are people there will never be complete agreement on everything. That is human nature - fallible and limited. All of us are right some of the time and all of us are wrong some of the time. None of us are right all of the time, but it might be possible for someone to be wrong all of the time. The Holy Spirit does not change, but our understanding does change and will only be perfect when we get to heaven. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." There is no way. God has given us His word, which is truth. We can base our faith on it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you realize what you are saying? I'm sorry, there is no way sin can even touch God, much less, have Him become sin. You are saying the Almighty Savior was no more than a mere mortal.

BTW, who saved Jesus from sin? Just imagine, the Savior needing a savior to save Him from sin that He became. This is perhaps worse than anything else you believe. But, if you think Jesus was not upright in His spirit, then I guess you can put Him on man's level and say He was sin.

That's why you need to be careful what you see other's write. You need to examine everything others wrote. We are told the Lord laid on Him the iniquities of us all, and that He bore our sins, but no where are we told He became sin. What a despicable thought!

We are told that, in 2 Corinthians 5:21.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin: that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you realize what you are saying? I'm sorry, there is no way sin can even touch God, much less, have Him become sin. You are saying the Almighty Savior was no more than a mere mortal.

BTW, who saved Jesus from sin? Just imagine, the Savior needing a savior to save Him from sin that He became. This is perhaps worse than anything else you believe. But, if you think Jesus was not upright in His spirit, then I guess you can put Him on man's level and say He was sin.

That's why you need to be careful what you see other's write. You need to examine everything others wrote. We are told the Lord laid on Him the iniquities of us all, and that He bore our sins, but no where are we told He became sin. What a despicable thought!

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1 Corinthians 1:18-21.

 

[justbyfaith]

God loves us, and desires us to be saved, and has made it easy to do so.

Luke 13:23-30, Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us: and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

 

[justbyfaith]

BTW, who saved Jesus from sin? Just imagine, the Savior needing a savior to save Him from sin that He became. This is perhaps worse than anything else you believe

John 10:17-18, Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Acts of the Apostles 2:23-24, Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thank you for posting the scripture that we can discuss, this will help to prove my point, brother. I'm only going to be comparing scripture with scripture so that we can get the bigger picture and point, to see and determine what God is really teaching us.

This is indeed a significant statement by John the Baptist in which he declares that these Pharisees must bring forth fruits meet (aka worthy) for repentance, and warns them not to think of themselves as justified by being the children of Abraham, because God is able to raise up fleshly children of Abraham from stones.

A more modern application of this in the church might be for people not to think of themselves as justified by being believers in Jesus Christ; if they do not bear fruits worthy of repentance also. For if anyone is truly in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Therefore if someone says he is in Christ and doesn't bear fruits worthy of repentance, it is as though he is trusting that he is a child of Abraham but does not bear fruits worthy of repentance.

John warned them not to say within themselves that thing because of this in John 8:33 which says, "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?" John's entire point was that it doesn't matter if they are Abraham's children or not, because they are still under bondage. Bondage to what? Jesus answers it in the next verse in John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." So then, who is the servant of sin? All are, whether they be descended from Abraham or not (Romans 3:23).

This is simply not the case. For in the context of John 8:31-36, Jesus says that we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. And in context, this is referring to freedom from the bondage to sin.

However, in the beginning of the passage of Matt 3, in Matthew 3:1-2, John the Baptist, preached in the wilderness of Judaea, saying, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Later on, in Matthew 4:17, Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

So, both of them said almost exactly the same thing, proclaiming the same message, which was: repent. Yet, in the parallel passage of Matthew 4:17, in Mark 1:15, we see a different account of the same event, which helps us to interpret the meaning of both John the Baptist and Jesus in the account of Matthew.

Mark 1:15 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Therefore, the command was indeed to repent, but to repent from disbelief and turn to belief of the gospel of Christ: NOT to repent from sins, as is so often misconstrued.

It is not misconstrued. Repent means to turn away from a sinful behaviour pattern.

This is why:

When John spake of bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance, we must look carefully at the passage: John firstly calls them a generation of vipers in verse 7 of Matthew 3, and then requires them to first bring forth fruits meet/worthy for repentance. Think about that: doesn't one who is evil have to repent first to bring forth fruits? A viper can't bring forth fruits first and then repent, otherwise his fruits would be evil: he must first change to good. So, that begs the question in the verse: who is doing the repenting in verse 8? Fruits must cause repentance according to the verse, so it is in fact saying that, in order to flee from the wrath to come by God in verse 7, the men must bring forth fruits worthy of repentance - as in, fruits worthy of God's repentance from the wrath to come upon them.

This is a misinterpretation of scripture. In Matthew 3:8, obviously John has already been telling them to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; and when he tells them to bear fruits worthy of repentance, it is not the repentance of God that he is speaking of; but the repentance that he is calling them to.

So, if we know all have sinned and earned death (Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23), and none can stop from sinning (Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20), who can truly bring forth fruits meet for God's repentance of wrath? No one (Romans 3:10) - which is why Christ immediately enters the scene after John preaches this, and is declared the Messiah, because Christ is the Savior they must believe on (Mark 1:15) to be spared from the wrath of God talked about earlier (Matthew 3:7, Luke 3:7); this is why John proclaims that Jesus takes away the sins of the world in the Gospel of John's account (John 1:29).

Proverbs 20:9 and Ecclesiastes 7:20 were written before Jesus even came to earth; to die on the Cross, where His blood was shed and He committed His Spirit into the hands of the Father who then poured it out on the early church: and He has indwelt believers ever since (2 Timothy 1:14). The blood of Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). The verses in question were written before the blood of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost made sanctification possible.

Essentially, John is making a requirement of them that they themselves cannot keep because it would be of works, thereby demonstrating the significance for the entrance of Jesus on the scene as the Christ (which allows men to be justified by faith in the work of Christ). John the Baptist would make a great hell-fire and brimstone preacher in today's Baptist church, but I digress.

If walking according to the Spirit rather than the flesh is equivalent to being saved by works, then the Bible is internally inconsistent. Read Romans 8. Here we find that walking according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh is something that averts condemnation.

Also there is this little nugget of information too. Acts of the Apostles 19:4 "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus." What's the baptism of repentance described as in this verse? Believing on Jesus Christ, not repenting from or turning from sins.

I disagree. Repent means to turn away from sinful behaviour patterns.

Read the entire passage to understand the context, friend.

Look up the word repent in your standard English dictionary, friend.

Luke 13:2-5 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Of those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

So what is Jesus' point here? The point of the passage is to demonstrate that no one is a greater sinner than another. Why? Because all have sinned (Romans 3:23). If he were instructing a person to "repent from sins," then when he asks something to the effect of, "Were their sins greater than the others?" And answers it by saying, "No, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish," he is making the point that no matter how many sins you commit more or less than another person or what sins you commit, ALL ARE SINNERS - AND ALL WILL LIKEWISE PERISH BECAUSE OF THEIR SINS DESPITE THE GREATNESS OF THEM, because no one can keep from sinning as the Bible proves over and over again. Therefore, the repentance he speaks of CANNOT be repenting from your sins because that wouldn't make a bit of sense with the underlying point of the message, but repenting from disbelief and believing on the one who takes away the sins of the world must in fact be the repentance he speaks of.

Actually, it makes perfect sense for Jesus to be telling them to repent by turning away from sins. He is using them as an example of the judgment that comes on sinners and is telling His audience that they will also have such a fate unless they repent.

 

[justbyfaith]

What is godly sorrow? Well, actually, it's something like this: Matthew 3:6.

But does godly sorrow save a man? No. Why? Because a man must believe on Christ to be saved (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). What does godly sorrow have to do with repentance, then? Well, it causes us to understand and accept our condition of sin and hopelessness (Romans 3:23, Ephesians 2:12), which leads us to receive Christ by faith, becoming a son of God through the Son of God, giving us a seal of inheritance (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13). Why is it repentance unto salvation not to be repented of? Because we're sealed, and will never experience death in the fact that our salvation is not to be repented of (Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30) even though we still sin and can thereby grieve the Holy Spirit by doing so. Why do we grieve the Spirit? Because no one can say they've made their heart pure from sin (Proverbs 20:9). The sorrow of the world is something like being sad that you couldn't get the video game that you wanted. I could provide a biblical example, but I'm sure you get the idea with this one.

I cannot say that I have made my heart pure from sin; but God doing the same is a different story. Repentance is a part of the conditions for salvation, in case you didn't know. All of the verses I quoted in post #974 show this.

Check out Acts of the Apostles 2:21, where Peter already tells them what they must do to be saved. It lines up with Romans 10:9-13 and Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Acts of the Apostles 2:38 is merely a response to being saved, not action taken to receive salvation. This also lines up with Acts of the Apostles 10:44-48, because only after the Gentiles believe did they get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. But notice here in this passage they received the Holy Ghost (the seal talked about in Ephesians 1:13) before they even got baptized.

And yet Acts 2:38 is a conditional promise wherein the condition for receiving the Holy Ghost is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. I believe that God placed faith in their hearts as they came up out of the water; as this baptism was a point of contact for their faith, much like the handkerchiefs and aprons in Acts of the Apostles 19:11-12 were points of contact for healing miracles. Through confessing Jesus before men in this baptism that they underwent, they obtained a confession by Jesus to the Father concerning how they belonged to Him. The Christians who dwelt at Ephesus were a different story; or maybe they weren't. They also may have received faith from the Lord upon coming out of the waters of baptism.

Also, it is clear that the baptism is for "the remission of sins." Therefore, their sins are put in remission and they are not active in the person's life anymore. Repentance means turning away from sin.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted,"

I mean this one is pretty obvious - they are converted unto Christianity, meaning they called upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13). They repented from disbelief, and believed the Gospel, as described in Mark 1:15.

And yet they were told to repent and be converted that their sins might be blotted out, so that times of refreshing might come from the Lord's presence. And repent means repent: to turn away from sin. So then repentance was a condition for their being forgiven.

What's the condition of repentance in this passage? Read the full passage and understand the context, friend.

Sorry, I lost track of what we were talking about.

Acts of the Apostles 17:30-34, in verse 34, saying, "Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed:" They listened to the instruction of Paul in verse 30 and repented from disbelief and believed the Gospel, like in Mark 1:15.

Mark 1:15 does not define what it means to repent. They were told to repent and believe the gospel, and this is speaking of two different things, not the same thing.

I mean, this one's obvious too. It's a compound declaration, which is simply the latter clause being a clarification of the former clause (if you study language structure).

"Repentance toward God" = "Faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." What is repentance toward God? He clarifies in the same sentence by saying it is faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

One could interpret it as saying repentance of sin, but that's adding to scripture, and the context only allows for the interpretation of repentance from lack of faith, because those are the words given.

Really? It is adding to scripture to take the word "repent" at face value, as we would interpret it in the English language? Repentance toward God, in this verse, is not = faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. They are separated by the preposition and, which indicates they are two different things.

This is a good quote friend, as it can definitely be interpreted as works-salvation without any other context. However, it is not speaking of works salvation: at most, it's speaking of good works that we are created unto when we become Christians (Ephesians 2:10), not the works we do to become saved, which Ephesians 2:8-9 rejects the idea of.

I agree with you there. However, I would say that fruit is not the same thing as works. And John the Baptist in Matthew 3:8-12 calls it fruit that is meet for repentance, which defines this verse as referring to works that come from the fruit of repentance, which is spoken of in Galatians 5:22-23, as being in its most basic form the love of God. Tired tonight, so I'm sorry if I'm not communicating with perfect clarity.

 

[justbyfaith]

deleted. reason: repeated post.

 

[justbyfaith]

How do we know?

Because in a verse above verse 20, in the latter half, it says, "that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." What is the condition for forgiveness of sins and inheritance? Faith in Christ. So in the following verses, when it speaks of turning to God, what is it referring to? Faith in Christ. Are works then something that must follow after this? Well, no. How do we know? Acts of the Apostles 26:20b: "that they SHOULD repent and turn to God, AND do works meet for repentance." We know that this is what they should do, but what MUST one do to be saved? Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Of course the inheritance is among them which are sanctified through faith in Christ.

Use of lingual articles and auxiliary verbs are key my friend.

Actually, the men talked about in this verse did wonderful works. We know this by the passage in verse 22. Matthew 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven (Keep in mind that this is the reason for justification AND condemnation whether a person does the will of God to be justified, or doesn't do the will of God respectively). Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

But they were condemned despite doing wonderful works, because they did not the will of the Father, which was to know Jesus.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So what's the will of the Father? To believe on the Son.

The will of God is also your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication (1 Thessalonians 4:2-8). And it is also that you should give thanks to God in every thing (1 Thessalonians 5:18). And there are many other things as well that might be counted as the will of the Father. For example, in context of Matthew 7:21-23, abstaining from iniquity might be considered to be the will of the Father.

Philippians 3:9-10 "And be found in him (in Christ), not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;"

So how do we come to know Christ? By faith, by believing on him, which is obeying the will of the Father in John 6:40. Those men in Matthew 7:21-23 didn't believe on him, nor have faith - in fact, these are the people that tried to do the impossible task John the Baptist set forth for them to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance of God's wrath, but they couldn't, because no man can be justified by works (Titus 3:5). They didn't have the righteousness of Christ.

Yes, in Titus 3:4-7 we find that it is by His mercy that He has saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. This indicates a change of heart and life, such as what is spoken of in Ezekiel 36:25-27 and 2 Corinthians 5:17.

And the righteousness of God by faith is attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

Again, this is the description of those who do works to be saved - all our righteousness' are as filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6), and if we do works but do not have Christ, our works are but filth toward God because we do not have Christ's righteousness, even if they are the wonderful works of Matthew 7:22.

All our righteousnesses that we perform in order to be saved are filthy rags; however the righteousness that is by faith that is done as the result of being saved (1 Thessalonians 1:3) is fine linen (Revelation 19:8).

The wicked are simply those that aren't saved, who do not believe, neither know Christ - like those workers of wonderful iniquity, who did not have the seal of God - they all will likewise perish.. why? Because they did not repent and believe on Christ like he said to do in Luke 13:5.

wonderful iniquity? Where is your mind? To repent means to turn away from sinful behaviour patterns.

This is simply a promise that God will provide his salvation to us when he comes to those who are saved, which actually backs up once saved, always saved.

Actually, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is a promise of God that He will sanctify you wholly if you believe the promise; which means that you have no excuse for living an unsanctified life.

Jesus Christ is our righteousness.

Amen; however this does not mean that our righteousness is impractical (see Galatians 2:20, Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7)

So, are you saying the Bible contradicts itself in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10, or Proverbs 20:9, or Ecclesiastes 7:20? Cause I say it doesn't.

No; I am saying that 1 John 3:8-9 trumps those verses because half of them were given before Jesus died on the Cross. And the ones that were given after have explanations. 1 John 1:8 refers to present tense indwelling sin not the committing of sins. And 1 John 1:10 refers to the committing of sins in the past.

We must compare scripture with scripture, friend. How are we without sin if we're saved, but still in sin while saved? Well, this must be talking about the unforgivable sin, which is that which cannot be saved - the reason why is because it says he cannot commit sin, because he is born of God. Paul still sinned after he was saved after all, so we know this can't mean what you think it means.

We are not without sin if we're saved. We have indwelling sin. But it is rendered dead (Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24) so that it has no authority over our behaviour any longer. And if you are referring to Romans 7:14-25 to say that Paul sinned after he was saved, you must consider that Paul was using the literary tactic of identification in that scripture, saying that he was "carnal, sold under sin," when he was in fact a holy vessel. He became as weak so that he might gain the weak (1 Corinthians 9:22); and Peter also spoke of this passage as being hard to understand and something that the unlearned and unstable might wrest as they did also with the other scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-17).

John 16:8-9 "And when he is come (the Spirit), he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement: Of sin, because they believe not on me;" So what's the sin being corrected here? The sin of unbelief, and that's the only sin indicated that is corrected. Why? Because all other sin is known through the law of God, which we are not justified by (Romans 3:20).

Actually the Holy Spirit convicts the unbelieving of every sin that the unbelieving commit. The point is that those who reject faith cannot be sanctified and therefore they are living unholy lives; and the Holy Spirit convicts them of their unholy behaviour first and foremost. If they choose to have unbelief, he does not convict them of unbelief, he lets them have their choice.

Also, unbelief and committing sins are very closely related in Hebrews 3:17-19.

The unforgivable sin is the sin of blasphemy of the Spirit, which is unbelief of it's witness of Christ. When we don't believe, we blaspheme the Spirit by calling God a liar (1 John 5:10).

And if someone committed that, the Holy Spirit would not convict them of it because it is the unpardonable sin, and the purpose of conviction is to bring a man to Christ so that he can be forgiven (pardoned).

Therefore, the unforgivable sin is not committable unto those that are saved. Why? Because once you believe, you are born of God (1 John 5:1), making you sealed with the Ghost (Ephesians 1:13), reproved of the sin of unbelief (John 16:8-9), and forever quickened by the Spirit (Ephesians 2:1, Romans 8:10-11) as a son of God (John 1:12); even though we still serve the law of sin in our members, we serve the law of God in our mind, soul, and spirit (Romans 7:25).

I will think about this teaching.

We already discussed how we come to know Christ and that the will of God is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope I helped, brother.

The way to come to know Christ is to repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood so that you can be delivered from the power of sin (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29, 1 John 1:7). Not just its penalty, but its power (see Matthew 1:21, John 8:31-36, Romans 6:14-23).

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

What if we have a new Christian reading along that has very little insight?

Why do those with your ideas keep repeating words which are not edifying to the Kingdom of God?

Does it please that one could be saved and not have any fear of living in sin, or even sinning?

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Proverbs 9:10

Why would we call Jesus Lord and and make anyone doubt that we are to obey Him?
Luke 6:46, 49

When it comes to insight , old Believers, victims of decades of bad teaching are probably too stiff- necked to entertain any ideas that might question their traditions even if these ideas are EXTREMELY edifying— as these two quotes are if properly understood.Either quote can be googled if one is truly interested.....I wish somebody would have turned me on to these types of worshipful statements when I was a neophyte Believer.....40+ years ago. I would have gotten their points, and there sure ain’t nothing special about me.Lets not underestimate the insight of new Believers

 

[Major1]

Really? Did you read it carefully?

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him. Are you saying Jesus' soul was not upright in Him?

The vision concerns the Chaldeans who will march across the land to possess it (1:6). The wicked were encompassing the righteous; God showed Habukkuk the iniquity and violence of the land. Habakkuk was given the vision in chapter one. Habakkuk will be set up as a watchman and was told to write the vision so 'that he may run that readeth it' (2:2). Habukkuk was to wait for the vision.

God said those whose soul is lifted up and not upright in him, but the just will live by faithfulness, something those whose souls were not right were missing.

Please don't make up things which aren't there. Please don't say Jesus' soul was not upright. That is no way to speak of our Savior.

I do not believe that I have seen anyone who changes and twists the words of others to make their fit what they want to believe. The placing of YOUR opinion into the moth of others is really very reprehensible my dear friend.

Our brother DID NOT say that "Jesus was not upright". YOU SAID THAT is order to cast dispurgeoon unto someone else. Do you really think that is the Christian way to debate and communicate.

Behold, his soul which is lifted up - literally, swollen

return to 'Jump List' Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible/
Also, Adam Clarke Commentary
Is not upright in him - The construction is probably that of a condition expressed absolutely. Lo, swollen is it, not upright is his soul in him. We should say, “His soul, if it be swollen, puffed up, is not upright in him.” The source of all sin was and is pride. It is especially the sin of all oppressors, of the Chaldee, of antichrists, and shall be of the antichrist. It is the parent of all heresy, and of all corruption and rejection of the gospel. It stands therefore as the type of all opposed to it. Of it he says, it is in its very inmost core (“in him”) lacking in uprightness. It can have no good in it, because it denies God, and God denies it His grace. And having nothing upright in it, being corrupt in its very inmost being, it cannot stand or abide. God gives it no power to stand. The words stand in contrast with the following, the one speaking of the cause of death, the other of life. The soul, being swollen with pride, shuts out faith, and with it the Presence of God. It is all crooked in its very inner self or being. Paul gives the result, Hebrews 10:39, “if any man draw back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.” The prophet‘s words describe the proud man who stunts aloof from God, in himself; Paul, as he is in the Eyes of God. As that which is swollen in nature cannot be straight, it is clean contrary that the soul should be swollen with pride and yet upright. Its moral life being destroyed in its very inmost heart, it must perish.

 

[Major1]

He became sin for us while He was on the Cross where He died (again, see 2 Corinthians 5:21). Today, He is risen and revived (Romans 14:9).

It kind of makes you wonder how anyone can miss that fact doesn't it?

 

[Major1]

Actually, you haven't. Tell us what it means for the wicked who turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, not to die. Just what does it mean, 'will not die'?

That, you haven't touched. What does it mean, 'he will not die'?

My goodness brother. How can you argue such things as OSAS and not know the Biblical meaning of "will not die"????????

Surely you are not serious?

 

[Major1]

And where does it say the clothing they were given of the animal was an atonement? You are sure reading a lot in there. Did the clothing they wore save them? Talk about flawed.



Ezekiel 18:19
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

You have a choice, either live in the iniquity of your father AND DIE, or do what is lawful and right, keep His statutes, AND LIVE.



You have added so much to what the Bible, it's amazing. The garments Adam and Eve were given were not from a substitutionary atonement. One has to make this up and insert it on his own.



I can hardly believe that I am having to explain this to you or anyone else for that matter.

Jewish tradition did indeed view the Passover sacrifice as being expiatory; that is, the lamb removed sin from God’s view. The Passover lamb died under God’s outpoured wrath, thus covering over the sins of the one offering it. Here’s what Rashi, a well-respected medieval Jewish commentator, has to say:...……….
“I see the Paschal blood and propitiate you. . . . I mercifully take pity on you by means of the Paschal blood and the blood of circumcision, and I propitiate your souls” (Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a).

You said...………………...
My friend, you won't find that at all in the Bible. Read the story of the Passover. It does not mention any kind of substitutionary atonement for sins. The story is in Exodus 12; read it.

And who is Rashi? One who holds to traditions?[/QUOTE]

God bless your heart brother. You are actually showing everyone on this site the reason why your theology is so wrong. You are doing more to harm your opinions and denounce your false teaching than anyone here who is debating with you.

I encourage you to do some Christian 101 Basic teaching studies.

SIMPLY and BIBLICALLY may I help you to understand that when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin and that my dear friend is and always has been SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT!

Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

Hebrews 9:22: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Early in the Old Testament God introduced this idea of one innocent being shedding its blood in place of the sinner’s.

However the solution of sacrificing bulls and goats and lambs for the sins of each person’s sin was a temporary fix. The next year, another animal would have to be sacrificed for the same person. A more permanent solution was needed, as noted in Hebrews 10:4 "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

That meant a human was needed to die for humans’ sin. But all humans are sinful, so another sin-filled person dying for us just wouldn’t work. A human without sin was needed.

But ever since Adam, every human born is sin-filled, so how could a sinless man happen? The only way was if God did it Himself.

God Himself became a man: Jesus means “the LORD saves” and died for us in our place. Therefore, anyone who accepts the sacrifice of Jesus on his or her behalf is covered by his blood and is saved.

Every animal killed and the blood shed was points to the coming of Messiah Jesus which was an ATONMENT FOR SIN.

 

[EmSw]

I do not believe that I have seen anyone who changes and twists the words of others to make their fit what they want to believe. The placing of YOUR opinion into the moth of others is really very reprehensible my dear friend.

Our brother DID NOT say that "Jesus was not upright". YOU SAID THAT is order to cast dispurgeoon unto someone else. Do you really think that is the Christian way to debate and communicate.

Behold, his soul which is lifted up - literally, swollen

return to 'Jump List' Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible/
Also, Adam Clarke Commentary
Is not upright in him - The construction is probably that of a condition expressed absolutely. Lo, swollen is it, not upright is his soul in him. We should say, “His soul, if it be swollen, puffed up, is not upright in him.” The source of all sin was and is pride. It is especially the sin of all oppressors, of the Chaldee, of antichrists, and shall be of the antichrist. It is the parent of all heresy, and of all corruption and rejection of the gospel. It stands therefore as the type of all opposed to it. Of it he says, it is in its very inmost core (“in him”) lacking in uprightness. It can have no good in it, because it denies God, and God denies it His grace. And having nothing upright in it, being corrupt in its very inmost being, it cannot stand or abide. God gives it no power to stand. The words stand in contrast with the following, the one speaking of the cause of death, the other of life. The soul, being swollen with pride, shuts out faith, and with it the Presence of God. It is all crooked in its very inner self or being. Paul gives the result, Hebrews 10:39, “if any man draw back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.” The prophet‘s words describe the proud man who stunts aloof from God, in himself; Paul, as he is in the Eyes of God. As that which is swollen in nature cannot be straight, it is clean contrary that the soul should be swollen with pride and yet upright. Its moral life being destroyed in its very inmost heart, it must perish.

Do you say the one lifted up is Jesus, just as this poster does?

 

[EmSw]

My goodness brother. How can you argue such things as OSAS and not know the Biblical meaning of "will not die"????????

Surely you are not serious?

I'm very serious. The wicked who turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, will live, and not die. What does it mean he will not die? Does it mean he has eternal life?

 

[EmSw]

God bless your heart brother. You are actually showing everyone on this site the reason why your theology is so wrong. You are doing more to harm your opinions and denounce your false teaching than anyone here who is debating with you.

I encourage you to do some Christian 101 Basic teaching studies.

SIMPLY and BIBLICALLY may I help you to understand that when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin and that my dear friend is and always has been SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT!

Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

Hebrews 9:22: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Early in the Old Testament God introduced this idea of one innocent being shedding its blood in place of the sinner’s.

However the solution of sacrificing bulls and goats and lambs for the sins of each person’s sin was a temporary fix. The next year, another animal would have to be sacrificed for the same person. A more permanent solution was needed, as noted in Hebrews 10:4 "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

That meant a human was needed to die for humans’ sin. But all humans are sinful, so another sin-filled person dying for us just wouldn’t work. A human without sin was needed.

But ever since Adam, every human born is sin-filled, so how could a sinless man happen? The only way was if God did it Himself.

God Himself became a man: Jesus means “the LORD saves” and died for us in our place. Therefore, anyone who accepts the sacrifice of Jesus on his or her behalf is covered by his blood and is saved.

Every animal killed and the blood shed was points to the coming of Messiah Jesus which was an ATONMENT FOR SIN.

Now you get to Basics 101. To do that you must start with the first mention of Passover. There you will find no mention of any atonement for sins. You have added this atonement. You take this false premise and run with it, as you have done above.

Get the foundation built right, before you start building upon it.