OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[Blood Bought 1953]

Sister. Mr Bond said the following...……………

jamesbond007 said: ↑
"To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins, but it helps to change our evil ways. Prayer helps to change our ways. The Holy Spirit helps to change our ways. This is what Jesus taught me."

He just said as I posted for you that "We must redeem our sins".
He just said as I posted for you that "Just believing in Jesus DOES NOT REDEEM OUR SINS".

Are you real sure that you want to say he is 100% correct and agree with his comments???????

Do the opposite of everything he says and you will be fine

 

[GodsGrace101]

There is an abundance of great, solid Bible teaching available on the net.The vast majority of churches are teaching their versions of legalism and are merely preaching morality and religion and boring feel- good sermons. Why think your church is the best just because that’s where mommy and daddy went. One should go where the best teaching is—- whether it be up the block, two towns away, on the internet or on top of Mt Everest.

Agreed. But how does one know which internet teaching is correct?

 

[amariselle]

Jesus didn't mention either grace nor works of the law as the medium of receiving the Holy Spirit. But do have this from Jesus -

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Here again, Jesus mentions keeping His commandments right before speaking of the Comforter abiding with us. The Spirit of Truth cannot be received by the world, because it doesn't see him, neither does it know Him. If the world doesn't see the HS, then the HS hasn't been manifested to them.

As we saw previously, it is to those who have and keep His commandments that Jesus manifests Himself.

Yes, He did not abolish the law, therefore, the law still exists. It is now in the hearts of His followers.

The law did save. You would find this if you knew what the law and the prophets have said.

One will find the fullness of truth of one rightly divides the word of God and does not refuse to acknowledge much of the NT. If one wishes to only focus on the Old Covenant then one will entirely miss out on God’s grace through the Gospel.

I have already told you the gospel Abraham heard was not the Gospel Jesus preached.

Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[amariselle]

And the one and only Answer told us plainly.

Matthew 19:17
...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I guess one can choose to focus on a single verse if one so chooses.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Agreed. But how does one know which internet teaching is correct?

Ask for God to help you......then do as the Bereans did...make sure everything taught squares with the Bible. Check out Ralph “ yankee” Arnold, Hank Lindstrom or Renee Roland on you tube.Open your heart and open your mind, you could find out you are the victim of bad teaching.How will you ever know until you look at all
sides.Good luck and God bless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess one can choose to focus on a single verse if one so chooses.

But how do you get around Matthew 19:17?
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

The young rich ruler asked Jesus, which commands should he keep.
Jesus lists the moral law.
Also, the end of the chapter does not conclude with a sin and still be saved type belief and neither does it end with trying to prove Eternal Security. On the contrary, the disciples had told Jesus that they have forsaken all to follow Jesus. Jesus then says that those who have forsaken all will receive a hundred fold and shall inherit everlasting life. That is how the chapter (or how the narrative) ends.

 

[amariselle]

But how do you get around Matthew 19:17?
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to Godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I’m not “getting around” anything. It’s called “rightly dividing the word of truth.”

And regarding Paul, he absolutely knew and taught the Gospel, not of works or the Law. It’s what His inspired letters are all about, that and instructing in the faith and spiritual maturity and discipline.

The young rich ruler asked Jesus, which commands should he keep.
Jesus lists the moral law.
Also, the end of the chapter does not conclude with a sin and still be saved type belief and neither does it end with trying to prove Eternal Security. On the contrary, the disciples had told Jesus that they have forsaken all to follow Jesus. Jesus then says that those who have forsaken all will receive a hundred fold and shall inherit everlasting life. That is how the chapter (or how the narrative) ends.

The “receiving a hundredfold” is reward, everlasting life is just what Jesus said, an inheritance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I’m not “getting around” anything. It’s called “rightly dividing the word of truth.”

And regarding Paul, he absolutely knew and taught the Gospel, not of works or the Law. It’s what His inspired letters are all about, that and instructing in the faith and spiritual maturity and discipline.

If you are not getting around anything, then why are you not explaining the verse?

The “receiving a hundredfold” is reward, everlasting life is just what Jesus said, an inheritance.

Inheriting everlasting life is talking about inheriting salvation. Everlasting life is talking about salvation.

Where do we see "everlasting life" talking about salvation elsewhere in the Bible?

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed. But how does one know which internet teaching is correct?

That is a really good question and I am surprised you have not received an answer yet. It is like trying to determine which Christian denomination, among the multitudes, is correct.

For many Christians, the Bible is the standard used to determine truth or error. That is my position. I do not believe that any human being or human institution can be infallible and inerrant.

Some Christians put their faith in their particular Church or denomination. In doing so they often must downplay the role of the Bible as the Bible either contradicts some of the church's doctrine or, at best, is silent about these doctrines.

 

[EmSw]

I am referring to many of His teachings on the Kingdom during His earthly ministry. As I specifically said. And Jesus did in fact say those words, so if you take issue with them your issue is with Him, not me.

What have you learned about His kingdom?

I believe we must “rightly divide the word of truth.” Do you believe that OT Israel’s land promises under the Old Covenant are for you as well? We absolutely must understand context, and part of that is knowing who Jesus spoke to, when and why.

If you knew the spiritual meaning of land, you wouldn't be asking this question.

Paul is no different in the matter of salvation, but he was in fact chosen for a purpose that none of us today have. (As with all of the other foundational apostles.)

Why do we not have the same purpose as Paul? Haven't you read what Jesus said for us to do?

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

To whom was Jesus speaking? Notice we are to teach the nations to OBSERVE ALL THINGS He commanded, not some.

Nothing Paul taught contradicts anything else in Scripture.

Well if you look at Romans 4:5, we do see something Paul wrote which contradicts what God said.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

I was referring to the one single verse you keep quoting. Who was He speaking to and who was He pointing that individual towards?

Jesus was speaking to those who want to enter life.

Scripture is clear, there is indeed nothing wrong with the Law, the problem is with us. We cannot keep it, and so we cannot be saved by it.

Why can't you keep it? Not keeping His commandments, Jesus is not going to manifest Himself to you. Therefore there is no way for you to know Him. John said if you say you know Him, but do not keep the commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. Are you sure you don't want to keep His commandments?

Actually, I didn’t. Jesus Christ is the Narrow Way. Anything else (like our works) is the “broad way that leads to distruction.” By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified in His sight.

Works are works and grace is grace. Scripture is clear, salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.

I tell you what, from now on just give me Jesus' words, for He has the words of life. If you can't find life in His words, then you can't find them anywhere. The broad way is not work related. You made that up.

Jesus is clear, salvation is by keeping His commandments.

 

[EmSw]

One will find the fullness of truth of one rightly divides the word of God and does not refuse to acknowledge much of the NT. If one wishes to only focus on the Old Covenant then one will entirely miss out on God’s grace through the Gospel.

You sound like no one from the OT was saved. That's all they had to focus on, and I can tell you, they did not miss out on God's grace. You have given a man's idea, and it is false.

Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

One thing you need to know is that Paul said all of this after the manner of men (vs. 15). Everything he stated here is his opinion and interpretation. Nowhere does God call His law a schoolmaster to bring us to the Messiah. Paul thought if there had been a law which could have given life (we'll stop there).

Paul could have read this and known the law did give life.

Proverbs 13:14
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Even Jesus, which Paul had no idea what He taught while on the earth, said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Jesus spoke through Paul and we are to follow Paul as he follows Christ.Paul revealed the Gospel thAt saves to Paul.He revealed the mysteries to Paul that He had kept hidden even from the disciples.Paul’s words should be red- lettered. If Paul said it—— Jesus said it.

 

[amariselle]

What have you learned about His kingdom?

If you knew the spiritual meaning of land, you wouldn't be asking this question.

Why do we not have the same purpose as Paul? Haven't you read what Jesus said for us to do?

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

To whom was Jesus speaking? Notice we are to teach the nations to OBSERVE ALL THINGS He commanded, not some.

Well if you look at Romans 4:5, we do see something Paul wrote which contradicts what God said.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Jesus was speaking to those who want to enter life.

I tell you what, from now on just give me Jesus' words, for He has the words of life. If you can't find life in His words, then you can't find them anywhere. The broad way is not work related. You made that up.

Jesus is clear, salvation is by keeping His commandments.

I’ll tell you what, I’m not willing to go any further with this as there is no point in discussing this topic as it seems you take issue with the inspired writings of Paul.

That being the case, and your inferrence that only the words directly attributed to Jesus “have life”, tells me all I need to know. We are most definitely not going to agree with such a massive difference in how we view what is even considered authoritative Scripture. I’ve encountered quite enough anti-Paul sentiment, and I have no desire to go into that territory (nor is it permitted on these forums to do so)

So, I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[amariselle]

You sound like no one from the OT was saved. That's all they had to focus on, and I can tell you, they did not miss out on God's grace. You have given a man's idea, and it is false.

One thing you need to know is that Paul said all of this after the manner of men (vs. 15). Everything he stated here is his opinion and interpretation. Nowhere does God call His law a schoolmaster to bring us to the Messiah. Paul thought if there had been a law which could have given life (we'll stop there).

Paul could have read this and known the law did give life.

Proverbs 13:14
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Proverbs 7:2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Even Jesus, which Paul had no idea what He taught while on the earth, said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.

It is a violation of forum rules to suggest that Paul’s writings are not inspired Scripture which belong in the canon.

Just a friendly reminder, lest you go too far down the path you’re hinting at.

 

[justbyfaith]

In Galatians 1:6-7, we find the words, I marvel that you are so soon removed from him that called you unto the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

Also, in Galatians 2:16, which is one of the primary key verses of all of scripture, and foundational to the faith, we find the words, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Furthermore, in Romans 3:20 we have the words, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

In 2 Corinthians 3:13-14 it says, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not look stedfastly at the end of that which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament: which vail is done away in Christ.

And in Hebrews 8:13 there is this: In that he saith, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus did indeed teach that when He would send the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit would guide the disciples (and us) into all truth. Now this means that when the disciples penned the words of holy scripture, it was inspired of God even according to Jesus. Jesus at the very least substantiated Peter's writings in saying this. And Peter substantiated Paul's writings as being scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). So Paul's writings are indirectly substantiated by Jesus. And Paul substantiated the rest of the Bible in 2 Timothy 3:15-16. So then, all scripture is inspired by God; not just the words of Jesus, and not just the words of the Old Testament. As a matter of fact the only place where we get a statement that the Old Testament is inspired is from the writings of Paul (I take that back, Peter also substantiates them in 2 Peter 1:20-21: however, the primary word we have on the authority of the Old Testament is from Paul; who wrote 2 Timothy 3:15-17).

So then, the Old Testament is inspired of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: however it is to be understood in light of the New Testament. Only when you get a New Testament perspective is the vail taken away that keeps you from seeing the reality of what the Old Testament is really all about. And also the old covenant is decaying and waxing old and is ready to vanish away. It is useful to take words from the Old Testament and use them in ministering to others; but the essence of the gospel is concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New.

In Psalms 19:7 we find that The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

This is further explained by what Paul wrote in Romans 3:20, Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law does not save; but it does convert us by showing us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour. If a doctor has a remedy for a medical problem I have, I may not receive that remedy unless I understand the severity of the problem. Likewise, the law gives us a keen diagnosis of our problem, that we are sinners and that the wages of sin is death (eternal separation from God). No one has lived a perfect life except for God Himself when He walked the earth as Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Then He died in our place so that the penalty of the law, which we deserved, which was perdition and condemnation, could be averted in our lives as we place our trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross, Him dying in our place as a propitiation for our sins. The word propitiation broken down is pro- pity- -ation. It is something that brings the pity and mercy of God. Otherwise we are objects of and children of God's wrath. It means that Jesus died in our place, having lived a perfect life; now His perfect life is applied to me while my sinful life was applied to Him as He died there on Calvary. The result: I am justified and He was condemned, as a substitutionary atonement for my sin.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That is a really good question and I am surprised you have not received an answer yet. It is like trying to determine which Christian denomination, among the multitudes, is correct.

For many Christians, the Bible is the standard used to determine truth or error. That is my position. I do not believe that any human being or human institution can be infallible and inerrant.

Some Christians put their faith in their particular Church or denomination. In doing so they often must downplay the role of the Bible as the Bible either contradicts some of the church's doctrine or, at best, is silent about these doctrines.

How about when we're all reading the same bible and we don't agree with each other?

Are we all right or are some of us wrong?
Is the same Holy Spirit speaking to all of us?
What should we base what we believe on exactly?
Is it possible that there's another way?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ask for God to help you......then do as the Bereans did...make sure everything taught squares with the Bible. Check out Ralph “ yankee” Arnold, Hank Lindstrom or Renee Roland on you tube.Open your heart and open your mind, you could find out you are the victim of bad teaching.How will you ever know until you look at all
sides.Good luck and God bless.

Thanks BB53. You're a nice guy.

 

[Major1]

This is one of many atonement theories.
I like the Christus Victor myself.

I must disagree with all due respect. What I posted is NOT a "theory".

It is straight out of the Word of God and the Biblical fact is that Substitutionary Atonement goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.

Genesis 3:21.…………
"The Lord God made garments OF SKIN for Adam and his wife and clothed them."

God killed a SACRIFICAL ANIMAL instead of Adam and Eve and cover their sin with the skins of those animals. The BLOOD of the animals was shed to spiritual save Adam and Eve as they had died spiritual the second they disobeyed God.

 

[Major1]

Yes. I do agree with @jamesbond007 .

It's all language...I know exactly what he means.

We need Jesus to redeem our sins.
He's saying that just saying that we believe is not enough.
This would be faith only --- something I never even heard of before these forums.

Jesus did not want us only to have some kind of mental belief in Him,,,He wants us to obey Him and follow His commandments.

If JB is saying that we must change our life and that the Holy Spirit is our helper in doing this...what can I possibly disagree with?

Repent means exactly what he said it means.
Being sorry might be an ELEMENT of repenting,
but repenting and being sorry are two different ideas.
Surely you know this...

And by works, I'm sure he means that we are to do what God would have us to do AFTER we are saved.

NO ONE on this thread has ever said that we are saved by works.

Surely, with all respect to you, realize that what you said is incorrect.

Mr. Bond said what he said and that really does not have to be explained. It is what it is.

In comment #668, the actual words he said were...……….
""To me repenting isn't just saying I'm sorry or Father forgive me for my sins. It means that we have to change our ways and this means taking action, i.e. doing works. Let's say I have a quick temper and it has gotten me in trouble with my loved ones. I have to vow and work to change losing my temper. It may be catching oneself and counting to ten or saying three Our Fathers before speaking or it may involve going to see a psychiatrist or other professional counselor. All of this involves works and trying to redeem our sins. Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins'

He just said "doing works" IS NEEDED in order to be saved because repenting is not enough...…….....and you agreed with that comment!!!!!!!!

He then said that "Just believing in Jesus does not redeem our sins".
And YOU are agreeing with that as well!!!!!

NONE of that says anything about AFTER SALVATION WHATSOEVER my dear sister.

I guess I have read more posts than you have read sister because I HAVE responded to many, many post which argued that WORKS is need for salvation.

 

[Major1]

I believe we are saved from the bondage to sin and eternal death. Bondage to sin causes us to be under the wrath of God.
So I agree.

I think that we are close, but not quite completely.

To say that we are saved "from the bondage of sin" is correct but not complete.

I stated what the Bible says which was that a man is saved "FROM THE WRATH OF GOD".

Being saved from the "Bondage of sin" is a Temporary position.

The wages of sin is death which is the spiritual Judgement of God on all sinners who reject the Lord Jesus Christ and it ends in separation from God completely.

Life itself is a death sentence and It ends with death. LIFE then begins with Jesus Christ in heaven and because we are saved eternally by Him, we will not be judged for our sin but on the day we stand before Him, we will receive REWARDS and not condemnation.