OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[amariselle]

The Bible does not say the wicked who turn from their wickedness are still living today. But it does say they will not die. You so much want that to mean physical death, but I'm sorry, it's not about physical death, it's about eternal life.

Who said anything about them still living today? Of course they’re not. We all die physically.

But go ahead, keep believing that there are other ways to be saved, apart from Christ. Don’t let me stop you. We all have the right to choose for ourselves.

 

[amariselle]

Show me you believe His word, and I'll jump up and down for you. Show me you believe God was talking about eternal life in Ezekiel and I'll rejoice with you.

I have tried to have a respectful conversation with you and I have shared Scriptures, and from the OT as well.

You seem to think that I don’t believe the Scriptures because I have said Christ is the only hope of salvation.

That’s fine. There is obviously nothing more to say.

God bless.

 

[EmSw]

Who said anything about them still living today? Of course they’re not. We all die physically.

But go ahead, keep believing that there are other ways to be saved, apart from Christ. Don’t let me stop you. We all have the right to choose for ourselves.

Why don't you believe God said they will not die?

 

[amariselle]

Why don't you believe God said they will not die?

I do believe that no one who believes the Gospel will die the second death. Eternal life is found only in the Son.

 

[justbyfaith]

That wasn't what was to come at the appointed time. Nothing is said of the Gospel coming at an appointed time.

As I told another forum person, when you don't believe God's word, you come up with all kinds of stories. Why do people try to make God's word fit their beliefs? It's not a good thing to put God into your box. Why not admit, the wicked who turned from their wickedness, turned to God, and did what was lawful and right would live, and not die?

Now make your beliefs fit what God said here, and you are on the road to truth.

Habakkuk 2:2-4, And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it: because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Jesus was lifted up on the Cross; and in that He became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Galatians 2:16 (kjv) shows us that it is by the faith of Jesus Christ that we are saved.

This passage in Habakkuk speaks of a vision for an appointed time that is highly important. What else could this be but the message of the gospel? I'm seriously asking you this question.

 

[justbyfaith]

That wasn't what was to come at the appointed time. Nothing is said of the Gospel coming at an appointed time.

As I told another forum person, when you don't believe God's word, you come up with all kinds of stories. Why do people try to make God's word fit their beliefs? It's not a good thing to put God into your box. Why not admit, the wicked who turned from their wickedness, turned to God, and did what was lawful and right would live, and not die?

Now make your beliefs fit what God said here, and you are on the road to truth.

I've already fit what God said there into my beliefs. The New Testament teaching is that we must repent in order to be saved.

This is not to say that Jesus dying on the Cross for us is not a reality. His shed blood cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7); it brings sanctification (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29). We cannot do this ourselves by merely "turning over a new leaf." Repentance includes believing in what Jesus did for us on the Cross. It is only by His shed blood that we can be set free from the power of sin, along with being filled with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will not come to dwell in an unholy vessel; that is, a vessel that is not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[justbyfaith]

I do believe that no one who believes the Gospel will die the second death. Eternal life is found only in the Son.

I would give you the exhortation of Colossians 1:21-23 sister, as well.

 

[justbyfaith]

Reaping time:

A sure foundation.

 

[justbyfaith]

@EmSw, consider that the testimony of the Old Testament is incomplete; otherwise there would have been no need to establish the New.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

"If you bear bad fruit, you're STILL saved by the grace of God, though you're not rewarded".

Who cares about rewards if I'm still going to heaven!
You mean I could go ahead and sin all I want and still go to heaven??

BTW, I'm making a list of all those who say what you just said.
Your on the list. Some day it might come in handy.

You're the 4th one on there.

And then I have to hear that the ones who believe in eternals security NEVER say that we should sin.

LOL

Mathew 7:23
Jesus will declare those who practice LAWLESSNESS to depart from Him. That doesn't sound like the loss of a reward, but the loss of salvation.

Mathew 25:46
Jesus is speaking about those who did not do the good works He just mentioned. They will go to eternal punishment. That doesn't sound like the loss of a reward to me, but the loss of salvation.

Luke 9:23-24
Jesus says that whoever wishes to save his life will LOSE IT.
That doesn't sound like the loss of a reward either, but loss of salvation.

Luke 6:46, 49
Why call Jesus Lord, Lord and do not do as He says?
That man is like one who built a house with no foundation, and the torrent burst upon it, it collapsed and the ruin of that house was great. Loss of reward?

Following the commandments of God and doing good deeds has EVERYTHING to do with salvation.

If you don't obey God, it means you have no faith in Him.
No faith........No salvation.

Please dont put me on that list unless you can put me on top.......this quote from Luther ought to do it...” Sin Boldly!” Of maybe this one by St.Augustine “ Love God and live as you please . Believers with insight get it....others never will.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please dont put me on that list unless you can put me on top.......this quote from Luther ought to do it...” Sin Boldly!” Of maybe this one by St.Augustine “ Love God and live as you please . Believers with insight get it....others never will.

Maybe you can help me to understand that one, @Blood Bought 1953.

Because I have plenty of insight; but I don't get that one (the first one: sin boldly) to this day.

I consider that Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 13:41-42 teach us that doing or working iniquity will place us outside the kingdom!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Please dont put me on that list unless you can put me on top.......this quote from Luther ought to do it...” Sin Boldly!” Of maybe this one by St.Augustine “ Love God and live as you please . Believers with insight get it....others never will.

What if we have a new Christian reading along that has very little insight?

Why do those with your ideas keep repeating words which are not edifying to the Kingdom of God?

Does it please that one could be saved and not have any fear of living in sin, or even sinning?

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Proverbs 9:10

Why would we call Jesus Lord and and make anyone doubt that we are to obey Him?
Luke 6:46, 49

 

[GodsGrace101]

Maybe you can help me to understand that one, @Blood Bought 1953.

Because I have plenty of insight; but I don't get that one (the first one: sin boldly) to this day.

I consider that Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 13:41-42 teach us that doing or working iniquity will place us outside the kingdom!

I agree with you.
I'm thinking of becoming catholic again!!
At least I wouldn't have to hear this type of talk.

Anyway, we should be listening to JESUS, not Luther or anybody else.

 

[Major1]

My suggestion is to love God and your neighbor, the two great commandments.

Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

If you don't love, you aren't born of God. It's very simple.

That is NOT YOUR suggestion. That is exactly what Jesus said my brother!

There are some who believe the good news of the gospel to a certain extent. But they will then add on a certain criteria for one to follow afterwards . By doing this they are proposing that having faith in the Gospel is not enough.

What if someone is believing the gospel but feels they must do works, such as tithing, witnessing door to door, keeping the 10 commandments, being baptized a certain way etc. to have God accept them? They have then removed themselves from the gospel of grace.

All these things are done after we receive the free gift. To get salvation or maintain it by works is then mixing mans ability with God's and that is what you are doing my brother.
You are in effect saying that what Jesus did was not sufficient enough to KEEP US SAVED.

 

[EmSw]

I do believe that no one who believes the Gospel will die the second death. Eternal life is found only in the Son.

Nothing is said about believing the Gospel in Ezekiel. Yet, we have the wicked who turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right whom God says they will not die. Why isn't this eternal life?

 

[Major1]

Killing animals to clothe Adam and Eve was not an atonement. The clothing did not amend anything.

What did the Passover amend or atone?

This is exactly why your theology is so flawed. You have failed to understand the BASICS of Bible theology. When you do that and the foundation is missed......everything else is flawed.

Allow me to say to you that the moment Adam and Eve sinned, they were guility and they DIED SPIRITUALLY. At that very moment they had to have an answer for teir sin as the Bible says that :The wages if sin is death".

The Bible teaches us that because we are descendants of Adam we share in his guilt.

Romans 5:12...………
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

Romans 5:15...………
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many".

As a result, we need the sinless righteousness of another, Jesus Christ, the promised seed, because our good works are not good enough to cover our debt of sin in the present or for eternity.

Romans 5:17...…..
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.".

Philippians 3:9...…..
"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith".

So then my dear friend, the picture in Genesis 3 of a merciful God covering the naked sinner with the garment of righteousness, and salvation through the substitutionary sacrifice of an innocent victim really does point to Jesus Christ’s death for mankind accepted by the Just God who never allows sin to go unpunished. Jesus the Lamb of God took the punishment in our place.

John 1:29...…..
"9The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

Then you asked...…..What did the Passover amend or atone?

I can hardly believe that I am having to explain this to you or anyone else for that matter.

Jewish tradition did indeed view the Passover sacrifice as being expiatory; that is, the lamb removed sin from God’s view. The Passover lamb died under God’s outpoured wrath, thus covering over the sins of the one offering it. Here’s what Rashi, a well-respected medieval Jewish commentator, has to say:...……….
“I see the Paschal blood and propitiate you. . . . I mercifully take pity on you by means of the Paschal blood and the blood of circumcision, and I propitiate your souls” (Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a).

During the tenth and final plague in Egypt, the Passover sacrifice literally saved individuals from death as seen in Ex. 12:23. On the basis of the redemptive offering of the Passover blood, the firstborn lived.

Again, Rashi comments:...……
“It is as if a king said to his sons: ‘Know you that I judge persons on capital charges and condemn them. Give me therefore a present, so that in case you are brought before my judgment seat I may set aside the indictments against you.’ So God said to Israel: ‘I am now concerned with death penalties, but I will tell you how I will have pity on you and for the sake of the Passover blood and the circumcision blood I will atone for you’” (Ex. R. 15.12, on Ex. 12:10.

 

[EmSw]

Habakkuk 2:2-4, And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it: because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Jesus was lifted up on the Cross; and in that He became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Galatians 2:16 (kjv) shows us that it is by the faith of Jesus Christ that we are saved.

This passage in Habakkuk speaks of a vision for an appointed time that is highly important. What else could this be but the message of the gospel? I'm seriously asking you this question.

Really? Did you read it carefully?

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him. Are you saying Jesus' soul was not upright in Him?

The vision concerns the Chaldeans who will march across the land to possess it (1:6). The wicked were encompassing the righteous; God showed Habukkuk the iniquity and violence of the land. Habakkuk was given the vision in chapter one. Habakkuk will be set up as a watchman and was told to write the vision so 'that he may run that readeth it' (2:2). Habukkuk was to wait for the vision.

God said those whose soul is lifted up and not upright in him, but the just will live by faithfulness, something those whose souls were not right were missing.

Please don't make up things which aren't there. Please don't say Jesus' soul was not upright. That is no way to speak of our Savior.

 

[EmSw]

Reaping time:

A sure foundation.

I'm not going to read that; no offense. If you want to give a synopsis of what is said, I will read it on this forum.

 

[Major1]

Do you believe a person can enter life (be saved) by keeping Jesus' commandments, as Jesus told us?

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

"Jesus did not introduce the Law to show the young man how to be saved, but to show him that he needed to be saved [cf. James 1:22-25]." [Note: Wiersbe, 1:72.]

The fact that the young man claimed to have kept all of them reveals the superficiality of his understanding of God"s demands (cf. Matthew 5:20; Philippians 3:6). Moreover, having lived an upright life he still had no assurance that he possessed eternal life. This is always the case when a person seeks to earn eternal life by his or her goodness. One can never be sure he or she has done enough. This young man may have been rich materially, but he was lacking what was more important, namely, the assurance of his salvation.
Matthew 19 Commentary - Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable

 

[EmSw]

This is exactly why your theology is so flawed. You have failed to understand the BASICS of Bible theology. When you do that and the foundation is missed......everything else is flawed.

Allow me to say to you that the moment Adam and Eve sinned, they were guility and they DIED SPIRITUALLY. At that very moment they had to have an answer for teir sin as the Bible says that :The wages if sin is death".

And where does it say the clothing they were given of the animal was an atonement? You are sure reading a lot in there. Did the clothing they wore save them? Talk about flawed.

The Bible teaches us that because we are descendants of Adam we share in his guilt.

Ezekiel 18:19
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

You have a choice, either live in the iniquity of your father AND DIE, or do what is lawful and right, keep His statutes, AND LIVE.

So then my dear friend, the picture in Genesis 3 of a merciful God covering the naked sinner with the garment of righteousness, and salvation through the substitutionary sacrifice of an innocent victim really does point to Jesus Christ’s death for mankind accepted by the Just God who never allows sin to go unpunished. Jesus the Lamb of God took the punishment in our place.

You have added so much to what the Bible, it's amazing. The garments Adam and Eve were given were not from a substitutionary atonement. One has to make this up and insert it on his own.

Then you asked...…..What did the Passover amend or atone?

I can hardly believe that I am having to explain this to you or anyone else for that matter.

Jewish tradition did indeed view the Passover sacrifice as being expiatory; that is, the lamb removed sin from God’s view. The Passover lamb died under God’s outpoured wrath, thus covering over the sins of the one offering it. Here’s what Rashi, a well-respected medieval Jewish commentator, has to say:...……….
“I see the Paschal blood and propitiate you. . . . I mercifully take pity on you by means of the Paschal blood and the blood of circumcision, and I propitiate your souls” (Ex. R. 15, 35b, 35a).[/QUOTE]

My friend, you won't find that at all in the Bible. Read the story of the Passover. It does not mention any kind of substitutionary atonement for sins. The story is in Exodus 12; read it.

And who is Rashi? One who holds to traditions?