OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[BobRyan]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom 2
God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


Hebrews 3
6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
..
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Notice the sort of "smack down" that Paul has for some of the unruly saints in Corinth --

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure (defeat) for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

 

[dreadnought]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

If we all behaved ourselves, OSAS wouldn't really matter, would it?

 

[JerseyChristianSuperstar]

Oh, but I'm afraid it does, my fellow brother in Christ. The semi-Pelagian conception of OSAS is false, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints/eternal security is true.

John 6:37-40: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:28-30: And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


I know what you're thinking. "Oh, maybe God won't let go of you, but you can still let go of God." But, that doesn't make sense. God is holding onto you with His hand, and that means that He will not let you go even if you want to, even if you want to loosen His grip, you can't loosen His omnipotent grip.

Deuteronomy 32:39: ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
and there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

 

[BobRyan]

If we all behaved ourselves, OSAS wouldn't really matter, would it?

If everyone were saved and persevered firm to the end... indeed..no debate on this topic at all.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh, but I'm afraid it does, my fellow brother in Christ. The semi-Pelagian conception of OSAS is false, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints/eternal security is true.
.

If God were going to hold on to you to the point of revoking your free will... then He should have done that with Lucifer to start with and saved us all a boat load of trouble - including the death of God the Son.

But as it is - God chose a free will model for His creation.

===================

second point. The "special case" of someone who is born again then perseveres firm to the end -- being a case of OSAS - is not debated by either side of this discussion. That is a "given".

The debate is over the one who "is born again.. then is severed from Christ... fallen from grace... experiencing forgiveness revoked...cut off from Christ and burned in the fire".

====================

Third point. The 3-point and 5-point Calvinist that you describe above - has a special "problem". They "retro-delete" today's assurance of salvation when they find out that 20 years from today they failed to persevere.

The Arminian can know that he is saved today - but cannot know if he will persevere firm to the end -- 20 years from today.

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist you describe cannot even know that -- because until he finds out that he persevered 20 years from today - he cannot know that his assurance today is even real.

 

[Neogaia777]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Anyone who is "truly" born again, would not (be able to) "fall from grace", or not "not persevere", would not "seek to be justified by law" ect, ect, or "anything else" that the Bible mentions that could "cost a person their salvation" or cause them to "lose their salvation"... Cause the "truth is" that they were never "truly" born again, nor were never "truly" saved, nor really ever truly accepted Christ into their hearts, and experienced the permanent, sealing conversion of that, in the first place... They maybe only "thought they did", but really did not...

However, a major problem comes when men seem to think they can "judge" other men in this or about someone else, or tell "who's who" themselves (by their sins, their behavior, their heart, or "whatever") when only God, and maybe, MAYBE only that person about themselves, can, only if God allows it for that person... Are they God? I think not... (though they may think they are)...

But no one can tell that about another, only God knows hearts... I think it is those that think they can, that are committing one of the greatest evils, and are in the most danger of hell... But. that's just me, for I do not claim that I can judge either, for I do not know that persons heart, but, God does...

I do think that many are going to be very "shocked" in the judgement, to say the least...

So, we must assume that all have a chance, and be trying to do our best to help them with that chance... A loving heart that does not sin should be greatly encouraged, but none should think they can judge another by that either, or can truly judge anyone in that, or any respect or matter, for that matter... But, without judging, all should encourage all to love and good works...

God Bless!

 

[dreadnought]

If everyone were saved and persevered firm to the end... indeed..no debate on this topic at all.

We will have to behave ourselves, then.

 

[Neogaia777]

If we all behaved ourselves, OSAS wouldn't really matter, would it?

If we all loved like God loved, it wouldn't matter...

God Bless!

 

[Christfan]

If God were going to hold on to you to the point of revoking your free will... then He should have done that with Lucifer to start with and saved us all a boat load of trouble - including the death of God the Son.

But as it is - God chose a free will model for His creation.

===================

second point. The "special case" of someone who is born again then perseveres firm to the end -- being a case of OSAS - is not debated by either side of this discussion. That is a "given".

The debate is over the one who "is born again.. then is severed from Christ... fallen from grace... experiencing forgiveness revoked...cut off from Christ and burned in the fire".

====================

Third point. The 3-point and 5-point Calvinist that you describe above - has a special "problem". They "retro-delete" today's assurance of salvation when they find out that 20 years from today they failed to persevere.

The Arminian can know that he is saved today - but cannot know if he will persevere firm to the end -- 20 years from today.

The 3 and 5 point Calvinist you describe cannot even know that -- because until he finds out that he persevered 20 years from today - he cannot know that his assurance today is even real.

God chose the free will model yet he uses guaranteed prophecies that happen regardless of choices? Sorry dude, you only get to hold on to the free will if you embrace open theism that solves some of the problems, but increases more problems ten fold. God described in the bible isnt contradictory like that and the ONLY criticism free-willists have are emotional ones against determinism. There is also no free will in Heaven, no choice of sinning. The list goes on and on of problems with free willism. As far as arminianism, you can never know if youre saved. You now put a light switch on salvation. How much sin and what sins turn you off from salvation? How long do you have to resist to be resaved? Etc..

 

[JerseyChristianSuperstar]

If God were going to hold on to you to the point of revoking your free will... then He should have done that with Lucifer to start with and saved us all a boat load of trouble - including the death of God the Son.

But as it is - God chose a free will model for His creation.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that man has an immutable free will that God will never violate. On the other hand, it teaches the exact opposite, that God will do as He pleases.

Proverbs 19:21 - There are many plans in a man's heart, nevertheless the Lord's counsel—that will stand.

Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Romans 9:16-18 - So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For the very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Psalm 33:10-11 - The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations.

 

[Albion]

The list goes on and on of problems with free willism. As far as arminianism, you can never know if youre saved. You now put a light switch on salvation. How much sin and what sins turn you off from salvation? How long do you have to resist to be resaved? Etc..

This is worth our freewillers giving a little thought to. How can Jesus tell his disciples not to worry if none of them know from day to day if they are acceptable or unacceptable to the Father?

 

[BobRyan]

God chose the free will model yet he uses guaranteed prophecies that happen regardless of choices?

We call it "real history" --

God promised the Messiah and promised Israel a great future - Israel bailed on God - but He still brought the Messiah through the nation of Israel and He came right on time as Daniel 9 points out. Even though to Israel Jesus said in Matthew 24 "How I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not".

Sorry dude, you only get to hold on to the free will if you embrace open theism

Just not in real life.

In real life God knew everything about Christ's future - yet Christ still had free will.

"Humans" can't fathom how infinite God can do such a thing. No big surprise there.

There is also no free will in Heaven, no choice of sinning.

Satan proved there is free will "in the extreme" in heaven.

Job 1 and Job 2 also prove it.

In a free will universe "right decisions" are motivated by "compelling evidence".

The list goes on and on when it comes to the problems with open theism and Calvinism.

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone who is "truly" born again, would not (be able to) "fall from grace", or not "not persevere",

Anyone who is not joined to Christ "can not" be severed FROM Christ.
Anyone who is not saved by Grace to start with -- cannot "fall from Grace"

Can't lose - what you never had.

So then Gal 5:4 OSAS fails to survive the text "you have been severed FROM Christ.. you have fallen FROM Grace"

So also the "Forgiveness revoked" doctrine of Christ in Matthew 18

 

[St_Worm2]

not one single verse [says] that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end"...

It's not a "single verse", but there is certainly this short passage from the Gospel of John to consider:

“ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day." ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)​

Yours and His,
David

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
.​

 

[Bobber]

I know what you're thinking. "Oh, maybe God won't let go of you, but you can still let go of God." But, that doesn't make sense. God is holding onto you with His hand, and that means that He will not let you go even if you want to, even if you want to loosen His grip, you can't loosen His omnipotent grip.

Funny thing though how with Adam & Eve he totally let them go with free will to choose. God hates death. He calls it an enemy. 1 Cor 15: 26 But God also knew that if FREE WILL wasn't sustained he'd no longer be LOVE. But some sadly twist their minds into believing that God took pleasure with spiritual death coming into the Earth, that which kills, steals and destroys that which snuffs out love and brings oppression. All the things that Jesus rebuked as evil some dear Christians want to believe that somehow Jesus didn't mean it. [/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.[/QUOTE]

============== OSAS only survives via "extreme inference"

Having no text that says "all those who are born again will persevere firm to the end"

Having no text that says "no one who is born again can be fallen from grace"

Having no text that says "all who are born again lose free will"

Having no text that says "be born again - live like the devil - go to heaven anyway"

Having no text that says "you stand by faith - you should not fear" to confront the text that DOES say "you stand only by your faith - you should fear" Romans 11.

Oh, but I'm afraid it does, my fellow brother in Christ. The semi-Pelagian conception of OSAS is false, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints/eternal security is true.

No one objects to the teaching that those who are born again AND who persevere firm to the end - are always saved the entire time.

The key is to prove the OSAS survives the disputed case of... born again THEN "fallen from grace... severed from Christ... forgiveness revoked".

How is this not obvious?

John 6:37-40: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

the dispute is not of the form "faithful believers - born again and then inexplicably cast out by God"

You point to a text that shows that God does not do that... but nobody said He does do it.

The "much imagined" OSAS insert into John 10 would take this...

John 10:28-30: And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

And spin it around to this

John 10:28-30: And I give them eternal life no matter how wicked they choose to be after I do that. And they shall never perish because I take the wicked to heaven as long as I at one time gave them eternal life.

Or spin it around to this

John 10:28-30: And I give them eternal life and then take away their freedom to choose so they will not overpower me. If I gave them free will - they would be stronger than Me. So instead I robotize them so that no text in the Bible is needed warning them about being severed from Christ, or falling from grace... or cut off and burned in the fire... or having forgiveness revoked. Nope -- no such thing as that.


I know what you're thinking. "Oh, maybe God won't let go of you, but you can still let go of God."

Sort of like not "persevering firm to the end".

Matt 24:13 the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

But, that doesn't make sense.

Yeah that is what some have imagined.

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

 

[BobRyan]

Funny thing though how with Adam & Eve he totally let them go with free will to choose. God hates death. He calls it an enemy. 1 Cor 15: 26 But God also knew that if FREE WILL wasn't sustained he'd no longer be LOVE. .

God "could" have chosen the "robot model" but the fact that He did not "robotize Lucifer" and lost 1/3 of the angels and did not "robotize Adam" and then lost mankind AND cost him the death of God the Son - PROVES that God sustains free will at a very very high price..

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

 

[Neogaia777]

Anyone who is not joined to Christ "can not" be severed FROM Christ.
Anyone who is not saved by Grace to start with -- cannot "fall from Grace"

Can't lose - what you never had.

So then Gal 5:4 OSAS fails to survive the text "you have been severed FROM Christ.. you have fallen FROM Grace"

So also the "Forgiveness revoked" doctrine of Christ in Matthew 18

Galatians 5:4 in context is talking about those who "went back to law" as a means of salvation, but they never would have done that in the first place, if they had truly been saved or joined to Christ for they would have known better cause they would have had the knowledge to know better that comes with being truly joined to Christ in the first place, therefore, they were never truly joined to Christ or never really found grace, in the first place...

And I have not idea what your talking about in Matthew 18 that talks about "forgiveness revoked" cause I'm not seeing it...? "Doctrine" might be the/your problem... (might want to read the scripture for yourself and without any preconceived notions or ideas (by man) that are just not there or are not supposed to be there)... (Just a suggestion though)...

Perhaps you are referring to the parable of the wicked slave, about canceling his debt, then revoking it maybe...?

Christ paid for our sins, therefore it is revoked, but if we do not believe or have faith or have never been truly born again or saved and do not have the fruits of such (again let no mere man judge, for only God knows the heart), If we do not have, or do not have those things "before God" or according to God, then we never really belonged to him in the first place, and were never really his to begin with, and what Christ did for us, does not apply...

It is pretty much the same for "anything else" as well, in "continuing" in something, if they do not continue in it, they never truly had it in the first place...

Again, no mere man can judge another in this though, cause only God knows the heart... To man it can "appear" that a person can go, or is going back and forth sometimes, or that they are not his, or do not have "it" or whatever, when to God they might, cause God knows those who are "truly his" and all the why's of everything (else), and a person's spiritual journey, or predetermined course, or whatever, man does not know such things...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Again, "never had it in the first place"...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@BobRyan About "free will", (Romans 9) (Romans 8:29-30)...

God Bless!