OSAS Discussion

[GingerBeer]

Which James is pointing out works are "symptomatic" of saving faith.

Never thought of life as a symptom. The idea in James chapter two is that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. He says that is his point. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24. But this discussion is about OSAS and that doctrine doesn't have a provision for works in salvation - OSAS can have works but never as a causative element in salvation.

 

[Basil the Great]

I think that the most pertinent question is "can a person who is saved lose salvation through reckless sinful and wicked living?" if the answer is no then OSAS is true, no? And if the answer is yes then OSAS is false, yes?

That would seen to be at the crux of the matter, though you should probably add, "through reckless sinful and wicked living and/or loss of faith were they renounce their belief in Christ".

 

[Radagast]

OSAS can have works but never as a causative element in salvation.

Nonsense. OSAS (much as I hate the term) simply says that, if you truly cross the line from "unsaved" to "saved," then you can never go back to (i.e. God will never allow you to go back to) "unsaved."

It's logically independent of how "saved" is defined, although obviously if you define "saved" as something like "said the sinner's prayer once" OSAS will not be true.

Now to me the O.P. was a rather reprehensible invitation to people to define all kinds of straw men. But if you really want to have a serious conversation on the subject, you need to define "saved" and "OSAS" the way that actual denominations believing in the theology do. Among other things, "OSAS" presupposes a fairly strong belief in predestination.

Certainly "OSAS" should not be confused with antinomianism, which is the idea that once you've "said the sinner's prayer" or something similar, your later beliefs and lifestyle no longer matter at all. Paul knocks antinomianism on the head fairly thoroughly.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Never thought of life as a symptom. The idea in James chapter two is that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. He says that is his point. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24. But this is discussion is about OSAS and that doctrine doesn't have a provision for works in salvation - OSAS can have works but never as a causative element in salvation.

If what you say is true, then either Paul or James is flat out wrong, contradicting one another. But that is not the case, because the "works" James is referring to, are the "works" of the Spirit. You see, it can also be said that works without faith are dead, in the sense so many often think of works. Works of the Spirit, is the only means (I know of) to reconcile the two. If James were responsible as human writer for the majority of the New Testament, you might have a point.

 

[Oldmantook]

It's not a logical fallacy as the Beloved apostle is speaking in objective terms. As Jesus did when He opined on the Father giving Him sheep He would never lose.

These were very concrete statements by our Lord.

Jesus also stated in concrete terms there are wheat and tares. They both grow together but he knows the difference between the two.

A tare never becomes wheat. Wheat never becomes a tare ; a goat never becomes a sheep and a sheep never becomes a goat.

Jesus does not deal with all the "what abouts" we see on these internet sites. He deals in concrete concepts and illustrations. We should do the same.

Another example. Many are called few are chosen.

Yet in these OSAS discussions we get comments as if we can influence His choosing. We can't. That's the very definition of Grace.

Yes John is speaking in objective terms referring to a specific group of people who were not among us. That no where implies that he is also referencing others in the body of Christ who are believers but still fall away. Otherwise, how do explain how an unbeliever can fall away from the faith when he never belonged to it?

Jesus never loses those sheep who hear and follow him (Jn 10:27). Those sheep who don't listen and follow do not have the assurance of eternal life. That is a concrete statement is it not?

 

[GingerBeer]

That would seen to be at the crux of the matter, though you should probably add, "through reckless sinful and wicked living and/or loss of faith were they renounce their belief in Christ".

Yes, I could pile one some more negative attributes and make it even more clear that the person is an apostate with bad morals and still is saved if OSAS is true.

 

[GingerBeer]

OSAS can have works but never as a causative element in salvation.

Nonsense. OSAS (much as I hate the term) simply says that, if you truly cross the line from "unsaved" to "saved," then you can never go back to (i.e. God will never allow you to go back to) "unsaved."

It's logically independent of how "saved" is defined, although obviously if you define "saved" as something like "said the sinner's prayer once" OSAS will not be true.

Now to me the O.P. was a rather reprehensible invitation to people to define all kinds of straw men. But if you really want to have a serious conversation on the subject, you need to define "saved" and "OSAS" the way that actual denominations believing in the theology do. Among other things, "OSAS" presupposes a fairly strong belief in predestination.

Certainly "OSAS" should not be confused with antinomianism, which is the idea that once you've "said the sinner's prayer" or something similar, your later beliefs and lifestyle no longer matter at all. Paul knocks antinomianism on the head fairly thoroughly.

You believe that works are a causative element in salvation - meaning that a person is saved because of their works? That's what causative means.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The works of Christ saved me, the works of the Spirit prove it, my works of the flesh are dead.

 

[GingerBeer]

If what you say is true, then either Paul or James is flat out wrong, contradicting one another.

Paul says that people are saved by grace and not by works of the law Paul also says that "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight" while James says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Those statement do not look contradictory unless you interpret "works of the law" as the same things as "works". I don't do that. I guess you do otherwise you wouldn't be saying "If what you say is true, then either Paul or James is flat out wrong, contradicting one another."

I think "works of the law" are what the Pharisees and Scribes were mad keen on doing despite being inwardly ravening wolves out to do wickedness. Their view was performing the ceremonies and observing the rules was the sure fire way to salvation. Paul disagreed with the Pharisees - he used to be one - because Jesus disagreed with them and said why.

• "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."
• "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence."
• "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness."

The idea is pretty clear isn't it.

Doing what the letter of the law requires is not doing the works that God asks and even under the law faithful people knew that the works of God were to do Justice to love Mercy and to walk Humbly with God.

But that is not the case, because the "works" James is referring to, are the "works" of the Spirit. You see, it can also be said that works without faith are dead, in the sense so many often think of works. Works of the Spirit, is the only means (I know of) to reconcile the two. If James were responsible as human writer for the majority of the New Testament, you might have a point.

The works of God are to believe in Him whom He has sent said Jesus. The prophet Micah wrote He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God? Mic 6:8 That summarises the works James says justify a man. Those are not the mere observance of ceremonies and rules.

 

[LostMarbels]

Now to me the O.P. was a rather reprehensible invitation to people to define all kinds of straw men.

Interesting. You find me blameworthy or culpable for getting people to explain their own views on a topic I admitted I may be incorrect about? I guess I should go to the correct forum to ask controversial questions concerning christian theology. Ohh... wait.

As I had made clear, having never discussed this topic before I wanted to bounce my own beliefs off of other individuals. This topic is pretty important to me. For years I have believed myself to be, and even label myself as believing OSAS in my signature. So when it was posed to me that I do not speak about OSAS doctrine as others do I sought to figure out the doctrine. You learn by asking questions then praying about the answers, and by looking at scripture.

I still do not believe in salvation by works. I do not believe you can lose your salvation, but I do believe a christian can turn on God, and give up his salvation. Denying God is the only unforgivable sin. Like denying God to save your life as an example. This has been confirmed by others responses. I do not see what you believe I have done wrong.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Paul says that people are saved by grace and not by works of the law Paul also says that "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight" while James says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Those statement do not look contradictory unless you interpret "works of the law" as the same things as "works". I don't do that. I guess you do otherwise you wouldn't be saying "If what you say is true, then either Paul or James is flat out wrong, contradicting one another."

I am glad you do not do that, however the response I replied to did not make that distinction, it had ambiguity to it. I thought I made clear that I meant "works of the Spirit", maybe not, maybe next time.

 

[Buzz_B]

OSAS doesn't say that, at least, not in any version I've heard.

The operative words I used were, "as if." OSAS speaks that in essence. It need not directly say it.

God is not saving unholiness. Any corruptible thing is yet unholy. If it can yet be corrupted it is not already saved. And as Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 15:52-54, incorruptibleness (the state of not being able to be corrupted) and immortally (the state of no longer being subject to death) are not put on by anyone until the last trump. It is only then that we can claim we are saved.

As far as the wheat and the tares are concerned, we prove such by the condition of our hearts. That is evident in the first part of Matthew 13. And what determines what will grow in hearts is very much what we choose to love. When we love bad we crowd out the good seed that it cannot grow within us. When we love good we crowd out the bad and by the power of the spirit on his word (thus it can be said with God's help) we gradually eradicate that bad from out of us so as to advance toward holiness.

We are not stuck having to remain tares, we can choose to change our hearts. Wheat can be scorched by the sun and die for lack of water. It is up to us to choose to grow our roots the direction of the water of God's word that we may continue to resist the heat of the sun and mature into wheat which is ready to be harvested.

OSAS is untrue doctrine. Trying to defend it only blinds people to much of what is actually taught in the scriptures, regardless of which version of OSAS one chooses.

 

[Radagast]

You believe that works are a causative element in salvation - meaning that a person is saved because of their works? That's what causative means.

That doesn't relate to anything I said.

As it happens, I am a Calvinist. I don't believe in salvation by works, but that has nothing to do with OSAS.

 

[Radagast]

The operative words I used were, "as if." OSAS speaks that in essence. It need not directly say it.

Please stop distorting my theology and then telling me that your straw man is what I believe.

OSAS is untrue doctrine.

Opinions are like heads. Everybody's got one.

 

[Radagast]

Interesting. You find me blameworthy or culpable for getting people to explain their own views on a topic I admitted I may be incorrect about?

Indeed. You made no effort to ask the groups who actually believe or understand OSAS. Instead, you facilitated the creation of a bewildering array of straw men.

The O.P. seems to me guaranteed to create heat rather than light. As indeed it has done.

 

[Buzz_B]

Please stop distorting my theology and then telling me that your straw man is what I believe.



Opinions are like heads. Everybody's got one.

The tares are teachers of doctrines that stumble, like the many variations of OSAS. The word which is translated "tare" is "darnel" and it refers to a specific type of weed found commonly among wheat. The Darnel weed kills wheat. It does so by rapping its longer and thicker roots around the wheat's smaller more tender roots and strangling them. That deprives wheat of being able to drink in the water it needs to survive and so it dies.

There are many a babe in Christ and that those babes can be stumbled both Jesus and Paul speak much about. That blows your interpretation of John 10:28. It would be better to leave off your hostility toward me and go back to such texts to find out what was really meant.

"As therefore the darnel is gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:40-42 (World English Bible)

 

[GingerBeer]

I am glad you do not do that, however the response I replied to did not make that distinction, it had ambiguity to it. I thought I made clear that I meant "works of the Spirit", maybe not, maybe next time.

No it didn't have the ambiguity that you claim is there. It said

"The idea in James chapter two is that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. He says that is his point. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24. But this discussion is about OSAS and that doctrine doesn't have a provision for works in salvation - OSAS can have works but never as a causative element in salvation."​

There's no mention of "works of the law" but since you see "works" and "works of the law" as the same thing you saw ambiguity. The ambiguity was in your reading of my post and not in what I wrote in it.

 

[HereIStand]

I think that the most pertinent question is "can a person who is saved lose salvation through reckless sinful and wicked living?" if the answer is no then OSAS is true, no? And if the answer is yes then OSAS is false, yes?

It's more of a matter of gradual loss of faith than it is committing a certain percentage of sins and losing salvation. A high school classmate of mine still in believes in Christ, but more less thinks of St. Paul as a heretic. A college classmate has now embraced universalism. In either case, I don't think they were living self-indulgent lives. They just somehow came to disbelieve to some degree.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

"Faith without works is dead" seems to fit the bill. That's in James chapter two.

James is correct because works will follow saving faith,as sure as night follows day....if works save ,what works did the repentant thief on the cross perform?
Works are great but they do not save.....if James appears to contradict Paul ,, I have no problem with that....I go with Paul,like I was told to do..". “Follow me,as I follow Christ”

 

[Albion]

My thinking is that the issue is simply whether or not what is called Eternal Security (of the believer) is true or not. The discussions that center on this matter that's usually called OSAS get wrapped up in the debate over Predestination, which complicates things.

But put simply, does God keep those who believe--those who are born again or however you would word it--safe, for good? There are enough Bible verses that appear to say exactly this, that I am inclined to accept as true the concept of the Eternal Security of the believer.