OSAS Discussion

[Basil the Great]

Ok so please show me the disconnect. What is the difference in our opinions?

I am of the opinion the confession of Jesus Christ alone leads to salvation.

BUT, there are those that appear sincere in their confession that do not follow through with their confession and are not really confessing Christ. What they are confessing is a lifestyle and a belief system. There are many things and obstacles that are in their way that they do not want to deal with. Instead they are christian because it feels good. It suites them, and they don't realy feel the need to live godly, well because they already are one of the good guys. They dress nice and go to church, and even read the bible. But they have not made the decision to give everything to God. God is just a part of their life, not Lord and Master over their life.

Then there are those that confess Jesus openly, and make themselves subjugated to his authority. This is salvation. You were bought with a price. Therefore you are not your own but you Master's that bought you. These are the individuals that have decide to cast everything aside for Jesus. They are willing to confess Jesus knowing full well they might be beheaded. Or they may have to witness the same of their loved ones. They will continue, and strive to strengthen their relationship with God, and old wants and desires become no longer desirable. They do not want to hear preaching from a pulpit that is discordant with the spirit they have received. These are the ones that hunger and thirst for the righteousness of God, and will see His kingdom. These are the ones that will not lose their salvation. Unless they literally flip God a bird and denounce him, their salvation is assured. So, OSAS.

uk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Consider the cost. Absolutely nothing is more precious than Christ. You are required to go to your own execution. You are required to love Christ more than your own family, and all of your earthly possessions. If you cannot commit to that. Then you are not worthy to follow Christ. Jesus's own words.

It is simple. If you chose to love something more than God, you have chosen that thing over God. But if you love God more than anything else you are his child forever. OSAS

As I understand OSAS, it seems to discount the possibility that a soul who truly did accept Jesus and changed his/her life, simply cannot ever suddenly forsake his/her faith and lose their salvation. If I am wrong, then so be it. However, I had a study Bible that my aunt gave me decades ago. It was a very Fundamentalist-like Bible, as the author's notes indicated that he did not believe that anyone could be saved without confessing Christ in this life, not even those who never hear the Gospel message. Now the author of that Bible explained the OSAS doctrine in a way that kind of reconciled the views of Fundamentalists and Moderates. He said that Fundamentalists claim that those who fall away never truly had repented, while Moderates say that those who fall away did have salvation, but lost it. The end result is the same, however, he said. I simply do not accept the view that one whose conversion is true cannot lose their way. If this is not what OSAS teaches, then sorry for my error, but this is certainly what Catholics and Orthodox and Mainline Protestants believe that it teaches and this is also what the Fundamentalist who wrote the commentary in the study Bible that my aunt gave me long ago explained.

 

[LostMarbels]

No, you did not attribute the quote to Jesus. I was just contrasting Paul's words with those of Jesus, at least in the one instance I quoted, but there are others I could have quoted. However..... this thread is probably not the proper place discuss the matter at length. Yes, I know that my position is a rare one, especially for a Protestant, but it is how I honestly feel. I certainly do not expect to convince anyone that I am right. I know better than that after many decades of discussing the Christian faith.

I think this is the biggest problem with mainstream christianity. You are accountable to God alone. You should be able to discuss your views with the church and receive sound counsel without judgment or ridicule in the presence of the holy spirit. However this leaves us all accountable for the information received, and how we deal with it. We cannot hold our own beliefs in high regard without the willingness to be wrong. We need the willingness to allow our own beliefs to be laid bear, and take them before God and ask for insight. Not me, you, or anyone else has everything figured out. You have to bring your concerns and beliefs before God.

You might teach me something here. I am not going to automatically assume you are wrong, and I will pray about it, and take it into every consideration. So if you have something to say... say it. Even if it is only me, I will listen to you, and take the time to discuss it.

 

[friend of]

All who call upon the name of Jesus will be saved. Our Lord understands our limited understanding and His steadfast love will always endure!

 

[LostMarbels]

As I understand OSAS, it seems to discount the possibility that a soul who truly did accept Jesus and changed his/her life, simply cannot ever suddenly forsake his/her faith and lose their salvation.

I think they can forsake it, but I don't think they can lose it.

I also have to come straight out and say I might be wrong and not even believe this doctrine as it has been pointed out before. I am looking to learn and maybe help. I want understanding concerning this.

If I am wrong, then so be it.

No... if were wrong we need to own it, go to God in repentance and move on.

However, I had a study Bible that my aunt gave me decades ago. It was a very Fundamentalist-like Bible, as the author's notes indicated that he did not believe that anyone could be saved without confessing Christ in this life, not even those who never hear the Gospel message. Now the author of that Bible explained the OSAS doctrine in a way that kind of reconciled the views of Fundamentalists and Moderates. He said that Fundamentalists claim that those who fall away never truly had repented, while Moderates say that those who fall away did have salvation, but lost it. The end result is the same, however, he said. I simply do not accept the view that one whose conversion is true cannot lose their way. If this is not what OSAS teaches, then sorry for my error, but this is certainly what Catholics and Orthodox and Mainline Protestants believe that it teaches and this is also what the Fundamentalist who wrote the commentary in the study Bible that my aunt gave me long ago explained.

I do not know about fundamentalism or what have you. I have never taken the time to study it. My belief is homegrown, on my own by my own relationship with God. I do not read books about it. I have never heard a preacher speak about it. Check my history this is my first ever conversation I can recall having on this subject. My interpretation may not be the actual or 'official' doctrine of OSAS. But I do believe that once you are saved you are always saved unless you give it up.

 

[Basil the Great]

Maybe I am wrong, but based upon my Aunt's study Bible and everything else I have heard, it seems that OSAS discounts the possibility of someone renouncing the faith, assuming that they had a true conversion when they accepted Christ. I admit that in theory, OSAS is a nice doctrine, for it should give it's followers a sense of peace. However, it seems to me that it rather discounts free will, for if we are truly free, then any one of us is capable, depending upon life trials and tribulations, of forsaking Christ and renouncing the faith.

Meanwhile, again, I apologize for not carefully looking over the poll and the thread. I guess sometimes I am guilty of being too hasty and not looking before I leap.

 

[LostMarbels]

So you're getting people who don't believe in or understand the doctrine to vote on what they think it is?

No, I am trying to get a better understanding. As a christian I do not see why we cannot go to God with this and get an answer. Why does it have to be a perpetual roundy round when anything that is agreed upon by a group in Jesus christ name will be done. We can come together and study? Ask God what he thinks about his gift of salvation pertaining to OSAS? It's not this hard difficult thing. Just get together and ask.

 

[redleghunter]

I want to understand the disconnect here. I almost feel as we are arguing the same point from a differnt perspective. So tell me what you think. I am thinking that if we have a more defined and stated position, we may have a better conversation seeing that an individual that has voted has stated their belief. There is then no question from where they are coming from once it has been made known.

Reformed definition according to the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Chapter XVII
[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Westminster Confession of Faith

The footnotes are interactive with Scripture proofs at the link above.

 

[Winken]

I agree with this. I am wondering if OSAS is seen as too much latitude?

No.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I want to understand the disconnect here. I almost feel as we are arguing the same point from a differnt perspective. So tell me what you think. I am thinking that if we have a more defined and stated position, we may have a better conversation seeing that an individual that has voted has stated their belief. There is then no question from where they are coming from once it has been made known.

I think the disconnect is that the OSAS sentiment is based on the sufficiency of Christ, the adult discussion that is left out is that people may have been born into a church tradition but never born again. Since there are intellectual assents taught to be "saved" people assume they are saved so there's this emphasis on works because if you tell someone they're not saved or born again or whatever, the conversation is over. I think the survey options tend to cater to the intellectual assent foundation mostly.

 

[Winken]

No, I am trying to get a better understanding. As a christian I do not see why we cannot go to God with this and get an answer. Why does it have to be a perpetual roundy round when anything that is agreed upon by a group in Jesus christ name will be done. We can come together and study? Ask God what he thinks about his gift of salvation pertaining to OSAS? It's not this hard difficult thing. Just get together and ask.

The Bible is nearby in my study. It is abundantly available on my desktop. OSAS is Spiritually-provided Truth. It cannot be debated or argued or made the topic of alternate views in any study group. It is what it is.

 

[Winken]

Reformed definition according to the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Chapter XVII
[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Westminster Confession of Faith

The footnotes are interactive with Scripture proofs at the link above.

Yet cannot possibly fall from Grace.

 

[Winken]

I think the disconnect is that the OSAS sentiment is based on the sufficiency of Christ, the adult discussion that is left out is that people may have been born into a church tradition but never born again. Since there are intellectual assents taught to be "saved" people assume they are saved so there's this emphasis on works because if you tell someone they're not saved or born again or whatever, the conversation is over. I think the survey options tend to cater to the intellectual assent foundation mostly.

Very insightful.

 

[redleghunter]

I know said verse well, as we all do, but it comes from Paul, not Jesus. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". Judaism teaches that God cares more for our deeds than what we believe. Jesus was a Jew and I find nothing in his teachings which leads me to believe that he emphasized faith over deeds. At the very least, our deeds are just as important as our faith, aka God's grace.

Why must we measure or separate the two?

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.



An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

 

[1stcenturylady]

I know said verse well, as we all do, but it comes from Paul, not Jesus. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". Judaism teaches that God cares more for our deeds than what we believe. Jesus was a Jew and I find nothing in his teachings which leads me to believe that he emphasized faith over deeds. At the very least, our deeds are just as important as our faith, aka God's grace.

I'll add 1 John 3:23. Note the AND

 

[redleghunter]

Yet cannot possibly fall from Grace.

Yes but temporal chastising by a loving Father can mean such with many stripes. (Luke 12:47)

 

[Basil the Great]

Why must we measure or separate the two?

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.



An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

There is no doubt that faith is crucial. I do not mean to diminish it's importance and certainly faith and works go together. However, I feel it is wrong to say that faith is more important than works. They go hand in hand.

 

[redleghunter]

I think the disconnect is that the OSAS sentiment is based on the sufficiency of Christ, the adult discussion that is left out is that people may have been born into a church tradition but never born again. Since there are intellectual assents taught to be "saved" people assume they are saved so there's this emphasis on works because if you tell someone they're not saved or born again or whatever, the conversation is over. I think the survey options tend to cater to the intellectual assent foundation mostly.

Michael you saved me 5 minutes of writing. You hit the nail on the head. We cannot "bottle" born again and hand it out at churches. We can only preach the Gospel to lost souls. We are the messenger and the Holy Spirit is the effectual call to convict the sinner.

Thanks.

 

[Basil the Great]

Perhaps my aunt's study Bible got it best when it tried to harmonize the views of one who had fallen away from the faith. OSAS folks say that the person had never truly converted. Others will say that he was saved, but has now lost his salvation. The end result is the same, as my aunt's study Bible said. (She gave it to me 45 years ago, so I do not believe that I have it around anymore.) I guess that each side feels that there is some danger in the other side's position, but again, the end result is the same for those who fall away. If someone renounces the faith, then they are in serious trouble, regardless of which side's view is correct.

 

[Winken]

Yes but temporal chastising by a loving Father can mean such with many stripes. (Luke 12:47)

Yeah........however, I prefer to consult Paul.

 

[redleghunter]

There is no doubt that faith is crucial. I do not mean to diminish it's importance and certainly faith and works go together. However, I feel it is wrong to say that faith is more important than works. They go hand in hand.

One comes from the other.

We cannot be born in our physical lives without our mothers.