OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[speakingthetruth777]

Is this the teaching to which you refer?



If so: lets take a look at it.

First, I think you will agree that if a non-christian committed any of the above sins, he would not be turned away if he were to repent and give his life to Christ.

Second, I think you would also agree that none of the good deeds mentioned above would by themselves allow a person to gain entrance to God's presence.

The disagreement is over whether a person could commit any of those sins after initially repenting and remain a christian.

I suppose you would say that a person has to repent of all the sins of the past upon coming to Christ...at that point he life is clean and he is a christian. Then after that, if he sins again, he is lost until he repents, at which point he is again saved and on and on. The line seems to be fuzzy on how many sins he can commit before being lost again. I guess one small one won't doom him but a pattern of many small ones might, unless he repents before they build up to the "threshhold of doom". (sorry, that's a little cynical).

OSAS beliieves that a person is forgiven of his sins upon salvation. both his past and future sins are forgiven because of his trust in Jesus as his savior. Not because of his trust in himself to live a sinless life. He knows that the fruit of the spirit consists of good things...not sins, and he is expected by God to show the fruit.

Also, notice that it is a Christian we are talking about here. There are many people who believe they are christians because of a few magic words, or because of a life of attempted sinlessness. But those people aren't christians. Only those people who truly trust in Jesus as their savior are christians. While a person can sin after becoming a christian, even sin terribly and still remain a christian, a pattern of habitual sin or a total disregard for God's commands should make a person question where their trust really lies. I do not believe that a person who truly trusts in Jesus will continue in sin without any conviction by the Holy Spirit to turn back and repent.

Also, the above quote, taken by itself COULD be interpreted by someone as a license to sin. But that would be a misinterpretation. A person who sins willfully, gleefully, habitually, and without regard for the Lord...is NOT a christian at all no matter which magic words who said, and no matter how many times he went forward to the alter or fell under the power.

Well actually that is PART of his message. If you can find it, he went on to "dare" his congregation to sin.
I agree 100% that those that do live like that need to question themselves, have i ever really been saved?
Which brings me to my next question. Do you agree with Pastors that telltheir people that are now living in sin, you are still saved? How can that be? Either they were never saved or they are lost. It cant be both. Know what im asking?
Thanks

 

[JVD]

What is your definition of "living in sin" ?

If you mean living together outside of wedlock, then you have to define what you mean by marriage. What is marriage? Believe me...I'm a big one on marriage. And I think that any lady that moves in with a man without a wedding ring and a marriage license is fooling herself, and vice-versa. On the other hand, is that what you are talking about?

Or are you talking about a life of sin as a habit, a way of life.

(This is a little nebulous you know...where EXACTLY do you draw the line between a few sins and too many. )

Anyway...lets talk about the extremes. I agree with you if you mean that living in sin as a habitual, constant way of life is consitent with being a christian. A christian wouldn't do that. However, it is possible for a christian to "backslide" and then come back to the Lord without ever stop being a christian. One of the signs of salvation is ultimate perserverance. A christian WILL come back to the Lord.

 

[speakingthetruth777]

What is your definition of "living in sin" ?

If you mean living together outside of wedlock, then you have to define what you mean by marriage. What is marriage? Believe me...I'm a big one on marriage. And I think that any lady that moves in with a man without a wedding ring and a marriage license is fooling herself, and vice-versa. On the other hand, is that what you are talking about?

Or are you talking about a life of sin as a habit, a way of life.

(This is a little nebulous you know...where EXACTLY do you draw the line between a few sins and too many. )

Anyway...lets talk about the extremes. I agree with you if you mean that living in sin as a habitual, constant way of life is consitent with being a christian. A christian wouldn't do that. However, it is possible for a christian to "backslide" and then come back to the Lord without ever stop being a christian. One of the signs of salvation is ultimate perserverance. A christian WILL come back to the Lord.

No, actually i mean walking or living in any sin. On a continous willful basis with no remorse or not even trying to quit. Say Homosexuality--They can get saved, but then if they return to that lifestyle, they cant be saved(unless they repent and quit that lifestyle)...But yet i hear ppl say yes they are saved. I know this to be true since i have a good friend that was once a speaker and christian singer that is now Gay. But yet Pastors have told him and have told me, he is still saved.
Not just homosexuality, but all sin. Im not talking about mishaps and mistakes. But, im talking about willful sin--Like incest--You cant "accidentally" commit incest. Abortion--you cant "accidentally commit an abortion...etc etc etc...
I hope you have a better understanding of what i am saying.
Thanks

 

[JVD]

I don't think you can accidently commit any sin.

So do you have gradients of sin...like catholics. Some sins will cause you to lose your salvation but some are allowable? Is there any sin you CAN commit as a christian and not lose your salvation?

 

[joshua_cheung]

I don't think you can accidently commit any sin.

So do you have gradients of sin...like catholics. Some sins will cause you to lose your salvation but some are allowable? Is there any sin you CAN commit as a christian and not lose your salvation?

Not sins, but our attitudes towards sins. Real Christians commit any sin and know that it is sin will repent and change themselves.

However, someone said he was a real christian. He had repented his sin and followed Jesus. Now, He commits sin and he knows that it is sin but he doesn't want to repent and change himself. Can he still be saved?
If yes, why? If can not be saved, OSAS is wrong.

 

[JVD]

said he was a real christian

That is the issue. He SAID he was a christian and yet sinned and did not want to repent. Yes he can still be saved, he needs to be saved because he hasn't yet BEEN saved.

He just SAID he was a christian and yet proved by his attitude toward sin that he wasn't one at all.

You see, I think most osas take a stronger view of conversion. Just because you say you are something doesn't make it so. If you truly believe you will show it by a desire to live for the Lord. You will fail, but you will repent, get back up and follow Him.

 

[joshua_cheung]

That is the issue. He SAID he was a christian and yet sinned and did not want to repent. Yes he can still be saved, he needs to be saved because he hasn't yet BEEN saved.

He just SAID he was a christian and yet proved by his attitude toward sin that he wasn't one at all.

You see, I think most osas take a stronger view of conversion. Just because you say you are something doesn't make it so. If you truly believe you will show it by a desire to live for the Lord. You will fail, but you will repent, get back up and follow Him.

That is the issue. Long ago, his attitudes toward sins was sensitive and changed himself. By our standards, he was a real christian at that time. Now , his attitude changes. Can he been saved? If yes , why? If no, OSAS is wrong.

 

[joshua_cheung]

OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved is true. However, when has he/she been saved? By what standards can we tell that he/she has been saved?

If he/she has been saved by our standards then he/she turns away from God, can he/she been saved? If yes, why? If No, OSAS by our standards is wrong?

 

[joevberry3]

I don't think you can accidently commit any sin.

So do you have gradients of sin...like catholics. Some sins will cause you to lose your salvation but some are allowable? Is there any sin you CAN commit as a christian and not lose your salvation?

Yeah, there are sins that we commit daily that we really had no idea we did.
But, no i dont think ONE sin loses our salvation for us. Im talking about a continual habitual lifestyle of sin AFTER we say the sinners prayer.

 

[JVD]

Joe...I agree with you that we sin daily. We sin because we are sinners. Jesus died for us because we are sinners. We are saved because we trust in Jesus' sacrifice for our sin not because we stop sinning.

Again, I agree with you that we sin daily. Wouldn't you characterize daily sinning as a continual, habitual lifestyle of sin?

Or do you have to commit more serious sins on a daily basis to lose your salvation?

Starting to sound a little like "I praise God that my sins aren't as bad as his sins, so I am saved and he isn't"

 

[Andyman_1970]

Next, no MOST Pastors that hold to OSAS does not tell their people to sin, but they also dont do a good job disouraging them from sinning either.

Come on now, we all know that.

That's funny, all the pastors I have been "under" since I have been saved (11 of them) they were all "OSAS", rebuked sin from the pulpit and in "normal" conversation and also encouraged the congregation to "not sin". Not one of them ever advocated "it's ok to sin", not one.

I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush there and making some generalizations that are not true for all "OSAS'ers".

 

[joevberry3]

That's funny, all the pastors I have been "under" since I have been saved (11 of them) they were all "OSAS", rebuked sin from the pulpit and in "normal" conversation and also encouraged the congregation to "not sin". Not one of them ever advocated "it's ok to sin", not one.

I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush there and making some generalizations that are not true for all "OSAS'ers".

Hi Andy. Reread the quote you used of mine in your last post. If you had read the whole quote you would see that i say all dont do this.
Hey, i have been there, i have read the books. There are Pastors that DO NOT rebuke their congregations for sin. NOT saying all, i am SAYING SOME!

 

[joevberry3]

Joe...I agree with you that we sin daily. We sin because we are sinners. Jesus died for us because we are sinners. We are saved because we trust in Jesus' sacrifice for our sin not because we stop sinning.

Again, I agree with you that we sin daily. Wouldn't you characterize daily sinning as a continual, habitual lifestyle of sin?

Or do you have to commit more serious sins on a daily basis to lose your salvation?

Starting to sound a little like "I praise God that my sins aren't as bad as his sins, so I am saved and he isn't"

Now JVD, i really believe you know exactly what im talking about, just wanna keep the debate going perhaps? LOL
NO, sinning daily has nothing at all to do with habitual sin that we WILL NOT GIVE UP IN ANY KIND OF WAY! Do you think its ok for couples to live together, how about homosexuality, incest, abortion, murder, rape, blasphemy, etc etc etc??
Can you say the sinners prayer and still continue in that above? Can you?
The word says If a person says he knows me but walks in darkness, the truth is not in him.
Thats not my words. Those are God's words.
Walking in darkness is a continual habitual sinful lifestyle.
No, when one is truly saved, he/she will try to abstain from these sins, not lay in them.
Also, by a person's fruits, you can see if he is really of God.
Also, why did Peter command us to make sure our calling and election is sure? You know why? So, we dont just "think" we are saved, but that we KNOW it.
And actually I think OSASers are more judgemental on this--When a person falls back into sin, they are very quick to point out--he was never saved to begin with...
We dont know that.
Also, i have written a whole sermon on another false belief---the seal of The Holy Ghost. People are taught that it cant be broken in any kind of way, which is very untrue. You can see this for yourself, by studying the culture in which Paul lived when he wrote this. And by studying church history.
You know OSAS DIDNT begin to be taught until about 400 years ago? Why?
Ireneaus didnt teach it.
Martin Luther didnt teach it---
And John Calvin the one whom OSASers mostly get this from----did NOT preach eternal security in disobedience---he preached it in Obedience. And thats how i believe as Calvin believed, we have eternal security in obedience.
I have a whole book of notes about what Calvin really taught on this.
I can also quote about 30 other church fathers that peached AGAINST eternal security in disobedience.
The question is, if OSAS is true, why hasnt it been around since Jesus was here on earth?
I dont have time right now. But, you can get more on the OSAS subject on my website. www.arkwebshost.com/biblestudies/joevberry3/


Thanks
Joe

 

[AVBunyan]

The question is, if OSAS is true, why hasnt it been around since Jesus was here on earth?

'

Just curious - to simplify the issue - what exactly are you counting on to get you to heaven?

Thanks

 

[joevberry3]

'

Just curious - to simplify the issue - what exactly are you counting on to get you to heaven?

Thanks

Why dont you answer the question first? Why wasnt OSAS taught by the first church fathers?
Please tell.

 

[AVBunyan]

Why dont you answer the question first? Why wasnt OSAS taught by the first church fathers? Please tell.

Maybe because the church fathers couldn't understand the plain teaching of scripture or..maybe they had little understanding of Christ's work at Calvary.
What the church fathers taught means nothing - what saith the scriptures?

I'm a lot of fun, huh?

 

[joevberry3]

Maybe because the church fathers couldn't understand the plain teaching of scripture or..maybe they had little understanding of Christ's work at Calvary.
What the church fathers taught means nothing - what saith the scriptures?

I'm a lot of fun, huh?

Yeah your funny...lol

No, i think they had a better understanding than ANY of us do now. If it were so, it would have been preached.
Why not name ONE person from the New Testament that was saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, but continued living in a sinful lifestyle? Can you do it? No you cant.

 

[AVBunyan]

Yeah your funny...lol
1. Why not name ONE person from the New Testament that was saved, filled with the Holy Ghost, but continued living in a sinful lifestyle? Can you do it? No you cant.

1. No I cannot - I can find people who fit your description who sin though - so what is your point?

2. Would you be so kind as to define a sinful lifestyle.

Thanks

 

[AVBunyan]

No, i think they had a better understanding than ANY of us do now.

Just thought of something:

1. Who are you referring to when you say "church fathers"?

2. You mean to tell me you believe that these "church fathers" had more understanding than Jonathan Edwards, Richard Baxter, Thomas Watson, Matthew Henry, John Bunyan, John Owen, etc?

Thanks

 

[HisWordisTruth]

QUOTE]And John Calvin the one whom OSASers mostly get this from----did NOT preach eternal security in disobedience---he preached it in Obedience. And thats how i believe as Calvin believed, we have eternal security in obedience.[/QUOTE]

Truly Eternal Security IS in obedience.
'Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:' - John 11:25
John 10:27-28
' My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.'
Romans 8:38-39
'For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'
John 3:16
'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have EVERLASTING life.'
But:
If you don't believe in Eternal Security then you (not your church, but you) are blaspheming Christ and God's only Son. If you could lose it, Why did he die? Obviously you have spent to much time looking for ways to prove that you could lose your salvation, instead of looking for ways to disprove it.
I suppose you believe in Evolution too? Such ideas are laughable at best.
Who in his right mind would look for a way to limit the power of Almighty God?
You can Reject God's gift but you cannot lose it.
You may sin a sin unto death but still awake in Heaven's Glories. (didn't Christ?)
You can have little faith but His Grace is Sufficient.
I have my salvation now.
I know I'll have my salvation tomorrow.
And when in front of Heaven's throne I kneel, I'll see my salvation fulfilled.

Forgive me if I stole someones previous thunder, because I only read the first post and the last page, and now I'm riled!