OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[JVD]

Joe...I am not saying that just to keep the debate going...this debate has been going for much longer than you and I have been alive.

As a practical matter...that is in the way you and I practice our christianity, I don't think we are very far apart really. You believe that someone who lives in a state of horrible sin has lost their salvation, I think they are likely not saved either.

What I don't understand is how you can think you can practice small sins and not have that affect your salvation if you believe one can lose their salvation because of sin. It seems to me that you must think your sins are ok but someone else's sins are not.

I have always considered a sin a sin...no matter what it was if it came short of God's standard.

You do have a point about the early church fathers not having this doctrine. I'll have to look into it. I don't believe you should get your doctrine from them, but I do think their opinion carries some weight.

When I talk about the early church fathers I only consider the ones in the very next generation after the apostles. It seems to me that those men that were personally taught by the apostles should have had something to pass along.

Have you noticed by the way that those same church fathers say almost nothing about any apostles after the originals? That's another thread...

 

[speakingthetruth777]

Just thought of something:

1. Who are you referring to when you say "church fathers"?

2. You mean to tell me you believe that these "church fathers" had more understanding than Jonathan Edwards, Richard Baxter, Thomas Watson, Matthew Henry, John Bunyan, John Owen, etc?

Thanks

Why wouldnt they? Ireneaus and others were there when the apostles died. Why wouldnt they have better understanding when they saw first hand Peter, John and others?
Maybe you need to do a good study on Johnathan Edwards---you quote him, but he also did NOT believe in Eternal Security in disobedience.
I already have, I got a whole page about what he believed in. He pretty much agreed with John Calvin, that we DONT lose it in obedience, but we will if we CONTINUE a lifestyle of sin. (meaning we dont even try to abstain from sin)
And in fact, Edwards was one of the all time best Hell and brimstone preachers for unbelievers and those that fell away.
God Bless

 

[Curt]

OSAS
will not stand up in light of just a few Scriptures.

Prov 26:11
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:8
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
(KJV)

2 Tim 3:15
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(KJV)

1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(KJV)
1 Pet 1:9
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(KJV)

Jude 1:3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
(KJV)

Phil 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(KJV)

Rom 8:24
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
(KJV)

 

[speakingthetruth777]

OSAS
will not stand up in light of just a few Scriptures.

Prov 26:11
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:8
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
(KJV)

2 Tim 3:15
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(KJV)

1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(KJV)
1 Pet 1:9
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(KJV)

Jude 1:3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
(KJV)

Phil 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(KJV)

Rom 8:24
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
(KJV)

Amen Brother Curt! By the way, have you had a chance to check out the thread about Joevberry3's website?

 

[Curt]

No I don't know where it is, or anything about it. Would it be worth the time?

 

[speakingthetruth777]

No I don't know where it is, or anything about it. Would it be worth the time?

Well that depends. I wanted you to see how these people are putting down this man of God. They have even made fun of him cause he didnt put commas in the right place, but yet some of these guys are supposedly Christian.
Here is the link
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1731562#post1731562

 

[Curt]

Well that depends. I wanted you to see how these people are putting down this man of God. They have even made fun of him cause he didnt put commas in the right place, but yet some of these guys are supposedly Christian.
Here is the link
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1731562#post1731562

Based on what you said I am not going to even bother. I'm not interested in hypocritical judgments unless they appear on these boards where we are participating. Then of course I would feel obligated to express God's Truth on the matter.

 

[*Song Bird*]

Very interesting posts, and topic. If I may I'd like to share my feelings on this issue of OSAS .
I once attended a Fundamentalist Church that beleived in it, but I now attend a independant Pentecostal Church , and I do not beleive in Eternal Security. I beleive that if a person continues to sin willfully AFTER he's received Christ as his Savior, then they shall lose their salvation. I don't agree with the theory that if you willfully sin you never were a Christian in the First place. Here's a few scriptures to exsamine...
Hebrews 10:26 says[U]"For if we sin willfully after we've recieved the knowlegde of truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins."[/U] If we sin willfully any sin, sin is sin, without repentance, we shall lose our Salation. Not if we repent right away, but if we died with unrepented sin or etc...
Hebrews6:6" If they shall fall away , to re-new them again unto repentence, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" Galations 4:8&9"Never the less then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which bu nature are no God, BUT NOW AFTER YE HAVE KNOWN GOD, HOW TURN YE AGAIN TO THE WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, UNTO WHICH YE DESIRE AGAIN TO BE IN BONDAGE" That means it's possible to return after serving God.
1st Timothy specifically tells us that" Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that, in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith , giving heed to seducing Spirits, and doctrine of the Devil etc..." How could they depart from something they never had in the first place? This verse is saying that they were of the faith, but departed from it.
Hebrews 12:15 "Lookling diligently lest any man fail the Grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springin up trouble you, and by it many be defiled."
Hmm..we as Christians can fail the Grace of God...
2nd Peter 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved seeing that ye know these things before, beware, lest ye also, being led away with error or the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness."These are not needless warnings in the Bible. The Devil does not bother us so much, just because he wants to make are life misserable, but he wants to steal our soul!
I had a friend who was the best Christian girl I knew, and the Bible tells us by they fruits ye shall know them, and she had the fruit of the Spirit , as well as gifts of the spirit. She was so on fire for God. But, then , some bad things started happening, and eventually, over a matter of years ,she started hanging w/ the wronge crowd etc...it wasn't long before she became mad at God and wanted nothing to do with, him. Recently, she's come back to the Lord, praise God! But she says she knew she was saved, and she knew were she was going wronge, and did it willfully anyhow, after a while she got numb to it, and went farther etc...
This is one of many stories from people I know . We do not have to sin everyday either. I read some of you talkin bout that. The Bible tells us we can live above sin, exsample. ...we can be angry and sin not, etc...
Another exsample, the Bible says all liers shall have their part in the Lake of Fire. If OSAS is true , this wouldn't make sense. Those that beleive our sins are covered by Grace, would say a person could lie, and still go to heaven. A Christian cannot go to the lake of fire. But all liers shall have their part in the lake of fire, along with many others who've commited other sins. So, this either means, that Christians can live above sin, and when they commite one, they repent and then are forgiven. But if they purposely lied, they would know longer be a Christian at that point, and are condemed to Hell. Make sense? I know it kind-of sounds bad, like that's not fair, but it's what the Bible says.

 

[Curt]

Son Bird you are preaching The Gospel of Truth.

 

[joshua_cheung]

Song Bird , I agree.

 

[JVD]

Song Bird...are you saying that if person were driving down the road, had a fleeting thought of their mean boss, called him a rotten name and then had a head on collision and died they would go to hell?

 

[JVD]

I should have said that person driving was a christian...at least they were before they had that thought.

 

[joevberry3]

Song Bird...are you saying that if person were driving down the road, had a fleeting thought of their mean boss, called him a rotten name and then had a head on collision and died they would go to hell?

Jvd, where exactly did you get it from out her last post that one sin causes someone to go to Hell?
Songbird didnt say anything similar to that.

 

[AVBunyan]

[font=&quot]For all you who believe you can lose your salvation by “sinning it away” or “living in sin”, or "giving up" your salvation by "walking away" or, committing that final “really bad” sin I think I’ve got you figured out. You claim you are trusting Christ but in essence you are counting on you not doing one of the above so in reality you are trusting you and not Christ – thus you may have possible even missed salvation. [/font]

 

[JVD]

But if they purposely lied, they would know longer be a Christian at that point, and are condemed to Hell. Make sense? I know it kind-of sounds bad, like that's not fair, but it's what the Bible says.

It seems to me that song bird is talking about one lie here. And that would condemn one to hell.

But lets change the story a little. Let's make it more serious. Let's say a christian has an argument with his wife...(this is a little gruesome)...while they are driving down the road. He loses his temper and is in such a rage that he drives right into an oncoming semi truck...killing them both. Now he has committed murder and suicide. Just that morning he had a good time in prayer and had repented of any past sins, but things had obviously gone downhill since. Is he in heaven or hell?

 

[*Song Bird*]

AVBunyan,

If I trusted in myself, I could not live over sin, and there would be no need to repent to anyone. But, the Lord has saved me from sin, and showed me he wants me to conform to him. To do that I must strive , w/ his help, to not sin, and when I do, the Spirit within will convict, and I will repent right away. By beleiving you must sin everyday, you are not trusting in Jesus's power to cleanse you, and help you conform to him. The Bible say, that" in Christ Jesus you are a new Creature, old things have past away" Have old things past away? Not if you have to sin everyday.

 

[*Song Bird*]

It seems to me that song bird is talking about one lie here. And that would condemn one to hell.

But lets change the story a little. Let's make it more serious. Let's say a christian has an argument with his wife...(this is a little gruesome)...while they are driving down the road. He loses his temper and is in such a rage that he drives right into an oncoming semi truck...killing them both. Now he has committed murder and suicide. Just that morning he had a good time in prayer and had repented of any past sins, but things had obviously gone downhill since. Is he in heaven or hell?

The story you gave is hard to answer.You said he lost his temper, but losing your temper is not a sin. The Bible says we can be angry, and sin not. Jesus was angry w/ those selling at the temple. and violently turned over their tables, but he did not sin. You also said this man commited murder and suicide. To murder someone is not the same as killing someone. Murder is pre-planned and thought-out, as Suicide is likewise. Killings can happen in an accident, or in war. So, from the info you gave me I would say I feel he'd be going to heaven, because he did not sin, but, I'd really have to know more to make a fair assumtion, such as , did he sin? What exsactly did he do in this argument etc...

 

[Word of Peace]

I posted on this subject before here, so I'll just copy-and-paste:

My beliefs on this subject:

Just as we are not saved by works, we don't lose our salvation through works. However, when we repent, Jesus in His grace saves us from our sins, and makes us a new creature, but if we no longer have a repentant attitude, then we have lost what Jesus requires us to have in order to be saved.
We all sin quite often (whether we know it or not). The important thing is: are we truly sorry for our sins? If we're truly sorry for our sins, we will strive to change, and we will come ever closer to how God wants us to be. When God sees a repentant attitude, He will do His transforming work in us, and send His Holy Spirit to guide us to be the way He wants us to be.

Sins do not in themselves cause us to lose our salvation. But they are one indicator of whether we have a repentant attitude or not. If you see someone constantly blatantly sinning, then you can be pretty sure that they are not saved, because they are not trying not to sin, as they would be if they had truly repented. Knowing whether someone is really saved is sometimes much harder, because sometimes we can't see if their good deeds spring from an attitude of repentance, or a faked repentance. But we leave that part to God, and give them the benefit of the doubt - ultimately, it's between them and God whether they are truly saved.

 

[JVD]

Amen Jdunlap.

The story you gave is hard to answer.You said he lost his temper, but losing your temper is not a sin. The Bible says we can be angry, and sin not. Jesus was angry w/ those selling at the temple. and violently turned over their tables, but he did not sin. You also said this man commited murder and suicide. To murder someone is not the same as killing someone. Murder is pre-planned and thought-out, as Suicide is likewise. Killings can happen in an accident, or in war. So, from the info you gave me I would say I feel he'd be going to heaven, because he did not sin, but, I'd really have to know more to make a fair assumtion, such as , did he sin? What exsactly did he do in this argument etc...

Songbird...are you rationalizing sin?...is that how you are able to live with the thought that one sin can lose your salvation?

Killing someone on purpose is sin...now matter how you cut it. He ran into the truck on purpose. That is murder by any definition. The length of time it takes to plan it is irrelevant. He planned to hit that truck even if his plan took only a few seconds. You can call it a "crime of passion" but it is still murder...and suicide.

Did this person end up in heaven or hell?

Note...this little story is a hypothetical to help clarify a teaching...but the reality is that this happens EVERY day. A "christian" dies who was walking a repentant life but before he was able to repent of last minute sins.

 

[*Song Bird*]

Songbird...are you rationalizing sin?...is that how you are able to live with the thought that one sin can lose your salvation?

Killing someone on purpose is sin...now matter how you cut it. He ran into the truck on purpose. That is murder by any definition. The length of time it takes to plan it is irrelevant. He planned to hit that truck even if his plan took only a few seconds. You can call it a "crime of passion" but it is still murder...and suicide.

Did this person end up in heaven or hell?

No, I'm not. Misunderstanding; it was not clear you were saying he did it on purpose. If he intentially did drive into the truck becuase he was mad, yes that's a sin. Definately. So, I would say he would go to Hell. I was thinking along the lines of he was so upset he was distracted and ran in to the truck. In that case I beleive he'd go to heaven.