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OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

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EternallySecure

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Tawhano said:
Deal. It’s not that I can’t handle your answers it’s that you don’t answer my post directly. All you do is post scripture without explaining how it negates the scriptures I quote. You constantly use strawman tactics and ignore anything you can’t explain away. So please explain why you take one verse literally and not the other as I pointed out in the post above.

I take all Scripture very seriously. What you don't like is that I don't buy your interpretation of most Scriptures. Hmmm....that must be tough on you. eh?

Oh well.


Have a nice day, Tawhano!

P.S. Leave the 5 virgins alone without any oil....dude. He said of them, "I know you not" (Matt. 25:12). That means they never were saved. At least it does from my point of view.
 
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Tawhano

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EternallySecure said:
I take all Scripture very seriously. What you don't like is that I don't buy your interpretation of most Scriptures. Hmmm....that must be tough on you. eh?
Nice dodge. So you refuse to explain why you take one verse literally and not the other as I pointed out in the post above.
 
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cheese

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And He gave us the freewill to throw off the covers.
AMEN
to say that once we've chosen Jesus as our lord and savior that after that point we're not allowed to turn back, is to say that we give up our will after that point and everything thing thereafter is fixed and cannot be changed. This view contradicts our very being. It contradicts the Bible. It contradicts the very reason we were created. It contradicts reality. It gives us license to sin. Why would God tell us to stay the course if it didn't matter? Relationship is the reason we were created. You can't have a relationship with a robot. Thats why God created us in His image with the ability to choose, think, reason , have memories, know right from wrong, have emotions ect. I hate to break to you, but people are responsible for their own actions. Relationship is two way. God will not force us to stay in His kingdom if we want to remain selfish. Actually He won't let us into His Kingdom if we want to remain selfish and refuse to learn love. Because His kingdom is about love. And if you think that He doesn't have requirements to be a member of it your gonna be really shocked one day. I pray that you will have an openess to go and research the scriptures again concerning this. God gave His word, the Bible, as instruction, inlightenment, for warning, encouragement and an influence to give us strength and the know how in order to finish the race.
 
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Qoheleth

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Election, predestination (Reformed-Calvinist theology), It is very confusing and I also have thrown this topic around for years. But...

While Calvinism states that as we submit to the sovereign, preexistent, eternal, and immutable (predestined) will of God, that all history, all the events of history, all the things that come to pass have been decreed and fixed in advance (including individual salvation) and are written by God.

In reality this is the very reverse of what we are told about the biblical God, who opens up freedom for us, who lets us make our own history, who goes with us on the more or less unheard-of troubled adventures that we concoct.

This is not a God of providence (which is never a biblical word). He is never a determinative cause or an irreducible conductor of events. The biblical God is he who unceasingly reestablishes our human liberty when we keep falling into bondage.
 
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Azaka

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While Calvinism states that as we submit to the sovereign, preexistent, eternal, and immutable (predestined) will of God, that all history, all the events of history, all the things that come to pass have been decreed and fixed in advance (including individual salvation) and are written by God.

In reality this is the very reverse of what we are told about the biblical God, who opens up freedom for us, who lets us make our own history, who goes with us on the more or less unheard-of troubled adventures that we concoct.

This is not a God of providence (which is never a biblical word). He is never a determinative cause or an irreducible conductor of events. The biblical God is he who unceasingly reestablishes our human liberty when we keep falling into bondage.
:amen:
 
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Qoheleth

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In fact the scriptures demonstrate that God unceasingly enters into dialogue with us, to warn, guide and councel us as to what is good, to set us unguard, to associtae us with his will; never to force us.

If we make Gods omnipotence dominate over his love and autonomy, his transcendence over the incarnation and liberation, then we think of his omniscience as an inscribing of history and events (including dbl. predestination) that has already been established, that is unchangeable and immutable, and that all tkes place at a stroke.

Then we do not have to enter into a dialogue with God, or into a monologue that, like Job's, demands a response from God, but simply have to submit to the unchanging, and in a true sense the inhuman will of God (such as double predestination).

The whole bible, whether in the Old Testament or the Gospels, tells us that there is no such thing as destiny or fate. All this is replaced by Love, and hence the blessed freedom that the first Christians experienced and conveyed time and time again.
 
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Qoheleth

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Jeff , Judas was ordained to betray Jesus . He never had salvation.

Jesus called him the "son of perdition ", never a son of God


If I may, I thought that I might comment on this in light of my previous two posts...

Do you think it was God's will for Judas to betray Jesus, or do you think that God had a plan to deal with it?

You are making the mistake of taking the determinist's view of humanity. God is greater than I, and He knows the future, thus I must be destined to do this or that.

It is simply not true.

God knows the thoughts and intents of every man's heart. This is how He knows what we will and will not do. He sees us as we are, not as we THINK we are, thus He can accurately judge what our actions will be. He can plan for it.

He created Adam to walk in fellowship. But He knew that Adam would disobey, so before God ever created Adam He had worked out a plan of redemption for all men. Before God does a thing, He already understands what will happen. (Doesn't the Bible say that He knows the end from the beginning?)

Judas betrayed Christ. It was indeed fortold that he would betray Christ. This does not mean that God MADE him betray Christ! God knew what would happen before Judas did it, and planned for it. God may bring about all his planes perfectly within our history at his pleasure



 
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Bulldog

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Qoheleth said:
E

While Calvinism states that as we submit to the sovereign, preexistent, eternal, and immutable (predestined) will of God, that all history, all the events of history, all the things that come to pass have been decreed and fixed in advance (including individual salvation) and are written by God.

In reality this is the very reverse of what we are told about the biblical God, who opens up freedom for us, who lets us make our own history, who goes with us on the more or less unheard-of troubled adventures that we concoct.

This is not a God of providence (which is never a biblical word). He is never a determinative cause or an irreducible conductor of events. The biblical God is he who unceasingly reestablishes our human liberty when we keep falling into bondage.

Does this sund like the type of free will you are advocating?

Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD ;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Psa 105:24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.
Psa 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
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Qoheleth

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There is not a spiritual "free" will to answer Gods call without the Holy spirit drawing through scripture and enlightenment. There is complete freedom of the will after conversion/regeneration to follow in obedience freely. In Christ there is complete freedom.

Of these verses that you provided, which speak to each of the conditions I offered above, or do you think they speak to only one condition. In addition, many verses used in context refer rather to a plan (nations) as opposed to Individual salvation. Again, choices are made by individuals and God allows them to continue on their way unless they turn back to his "drawing". Yet within these choices, God is fully aware of the outcome and decides his plan of action accordingly

Im sure that you are aware that by detaching a few verses from the context of the entire message (epistle and so on) is a fruitless practice. In context of the entire message is what is needed for complete understanding for the "isolated" verse or proof texting.
 
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Bulldog

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In context of the entire message is what is needed for complete understanding for the "isolated" verse or proof texting.

Do you have verses in mind that support Liberterian free will?

Also, if you disagree with my interpretation of the verses I posted, then please show how my view violates context.
 
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