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Amen my sister!Rosa Mystica said:Here is my response to this question (it's from a Catholic perspective, so keep that in mind). We all know that we can't earn salvation. It is only through God's grace that we are saved. However, although we can't earn salvation, we can lose it. Catholics believe that if one commits a mortal sin (i.e. one that leads to death of the soul), he or she will automatically be condemned unless the sin is repented of (for us, this means confession to a priest). See, when we commit a mortal sin, we lose the sactifying grace that God has given us. Our relationship with Him is severed; our souls are no longer in friendship with him. This is where the good works part comes in. By doing what God wants and obeying his commandments (and not committing grave sins), our souls remain in friendship with Him. This is what makes salvation a possibility.
Nah, im in no way Catholic.JVD said:Joe...is your doctorate in religious studies from a catholic institution? This is not a cynical question. But it would explain the deep devide between us and why it seems that you...and I are not able to make any headway in understanding each others positions.
It still seems to me that you advocate sinlessness. If so..why did Christ die?
Christy4Christ said:Matthew5:20
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Heaven"
joevberry3 said:Adam and Eve
joevberry3 said:David--he repented of his adultery and murder
joevberry3 said:ananias and sapphira
joevberry3 said:the Galatians--they fell from grace.one cant fall from grace of one had never been under grace.
joevberry3 said:Peter denied Jesus. Jesus himself said if you deny me, i will deny you. (are you gonna disagree with Jesus here) But we see, Peter repented of his denial when he realized what he had done.
AVBunyan said:Real simple - if you think you can lose your salvation then you are counting on you to keep your salvation - therefore you are not counting on Christ for your salvation. Your salvation is basicaly a works salvation because you are counting on you to keep it thus you are trusting in your efforts. You believe Christ, by grace, opened the door but it is up to you to get in. Sounds like works salvation to me - no, I'm sure it is works salvation if you are counting on anything other than Christ.
Basically if one thinks he can lose it then there are only two possiblities here:
1. You never were regenerated to begin with.
2. You are just confused on what really took place at Calvary.
I'm counting on what Christ did at Calvary alone for justification.
I dont twist scripture--i dont accuse you of such---so lets remember the issue here--Andyman_1970 said:Got a verse that says Adam and Eve lost their salvation? They were punished for their sins, but the text does not indicate that the punishment included "lose" of their salvation. God killed some animals and made skins for them to cover their nakedness and symbolically cover their sins (many beleive thats where the blood atonement started). I think your reading something into that text that is not there. Yeah i got a verse...God told them both you shall surely die..Did he mean phsically? Did they drop dead? No, he was talking about spiritually!
Again, verses please where David stopped being a man after God's own heart and then restarted again after he repented. Why did he repent?Was it for fun? Why did he ask God not to blot his name out? Why did he ask God not to take his holy spirit from him? Was it for fun? Did the prayer mean absolutely nothing at all? Why dont you explain exactly what the prayer meant my brother?
How do we know they were saved to begin with? The text does not indicate they were saved, and to assume they were is a pretty big assumption.
I love the term "fall from grace", if there was nothing I did to earn grace, how can I fall from it, I didn't deserve it to begin with. In my study I don't remember the text indicating that Paul said they were in fact no longer saved.
Then Andy how did they fall from Grace? DUH! How can one fall from anything that they hadnt been on???????????
John 21, Peter didn't repent, Jesus approached Peter and initaited the questions, not Peter. Peter had nothing to do with his restoration, Jesus did everything. The text says nothing about Peter repenting or asking Jesus to forgive him for denying Him, Jesus did all the work. Yes it does, u need to reread. Peter ran out and begin crying and showing remorse. Repentance is showing remorse my brother!
Joe, it would seem you are making some assumptions and taking some liberties with the Scriptures to make your points. Anyone can twist the Scriptures (Satan did) to make them say what they want, that's why we have to be discerning.
joevberry3 said:It amazes me that people believe the lie that one can say a prayer, not have any change, still live like Hell, but yet be saved...how odd...A lie straight from Satan...
joevberry3 said:Unless she repents and quits that witchcraft, shes on the way to Hell, and so is her Pastor for telling her basically yeah, its ok, go sin.
I agree Andy, that all Baptist preachers dont preach like this, but lots do. I was once diehard Baptist, and have seen it with my eyes and ears. When I was saved at 13 then later backslid, and God Started dealing with me(in fact woke me from sleep and told me where i was headed) i still had 3 different Baptist Pastors tell me, ahhh your saved, thats not God speaking to you.Andyman_1970 said:I totally agree, I think the vast majority of people who "claim" to be saved, but yet have no fruit of the Spirit in their life (I'm talking none), are in fact not saved to begin with. A person can "pray the prayer" and not get saved. The prayer does not save, it's the condition of your heart and if that person truly gave their life to Jesus.
I would becareful about how you say this Baptist pastor preaches this or that. Your statement could be construded that all Baptist are this way, I know three Baptist pastors that would take offense to such a generalization.
And that Pastor will have to stand before Jesus on Judgement day and answer for his actions.
joevberry3 said:Also, rnmomof7, if nothing we do causes us to fallfrom Grace, how then did the Gelatins fall? Were they a special case? It simply amazes me, that they could fall, but now we hear ppl say nothing we do can make us fall.
I dont wanna hear what they did or so. No matter what they did, they were under grace at one time, but Paul said you have fallen from grace. I wanna know how they could have fell, but we cant?
Thanks
Joe
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