OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[Boanerge]

OSAS seems to imply that once you have salvation there is no way of losing it. Ofcourse, I believe that your faith will have you holding on dearly to salvation. But what about those who do not have faith? or those who lack faith? According to "once saved always saved", (I'm simply generalizing), the faithless will have a bit of an issue telling others that they are saved. Also, those who do say "i am forever saved" have a little problem with falling into sins. OSAS seems to say that those who fall away, fall because they were never saved in the first place, then it falls into some major overload of doctrines. OSAS says "either you have it or you don't" theres no room for "growth". And, "those who have it will never lose it." But i have to say, to never lose it would mean to never sin ever again. Seems a bit difficult.

So what is it? Can salvation be lost? This is how i see it, if God has given you something precious, Take Care of It! if you don't, what do you think will happen? IF you willfully through that gift away, what makes you think God will give it to you again?

6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
6:8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Therefore, if I, knowing with such confidence, that God is True, and seeing His blessings in my life, and i KNOW what is right and what is wrong. But then i decide, for personal gain, to ruin something that God has done. and i leave God for something else. How can i be renewed? I trample my savoir all over again.

I do not speak of sins like touching yourself and anger. Because touching yourself is between you and God and Anger can be settled and forgiven. Sometimes, because of lack of self-control, we let our desires get the best of us. But this is why we must repent before God. This is what John calls "sin that does not lead to death."

5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

But we are not little children and the OSAS is not something to be taken immaturely, so we return to Hebrews which speaks about sins that do lead to death. This sin is the kind of sin that is not easy to forgive. Because if i know clearly, i am enlightened, and i know, but i still choose to do the sin. If I fall back and forget about God- I walk the walk that leads to Death. I, with my actions, turn my head from the Holy Spirit, who has shown me clearly, what the truth is. If i ignore my own conscience, what then can save me? What can bring me back to my senses?

OSAS has to be clear, because its serious. When we sin, how do we know we are saved? Sin keeps us in check. Don't sin, and that is how you know you will be saved. Arrogance and Disobedience, this is a different story. Because these people take the Gift of God, and trample on it, they laugh and leave. There is nothing we can do, but pray that they have not upsetted the Holy Spirit. If they have the Gift, then they have salvation, but they decided to let it go, lose it, trample on it, and leave for something else. It gets worse for those who KNOW what salvation is.

Therefore, muslims and jews might trample on our bible, but it can be because they have yet to know God. God still has to work in their lives. Especially because no human with common sense will want to blindly believe what you or i have to say. It has to be the working of the Holy Spirit that makes it clear in their heart that this is truth.

Here is a quote i came across:

"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

Paul does mention he is "already saved" he is one "being saved" and he is "going to be saved"

As far as i can see, there seems to be three levels to the usage of "saved".

So i take on the analogy of a seed, since it has different levels.

One. We have a seed. Lets call this seed salvation. Although it is a seed, we know it will become a tree. this is our hope. Because we have the seed we can say "I am already saved"

Two. This seed has to grow. as it sprouts it needs to be fed. it needs water and sunlight. This is the process a christian is in. Feeding that seed with study of the bible, and following God, and obedience. This is like saying "I am one who is being saved".

Three. This seed will become a tree. This is our hope, and in faith we are sure that it will be a tree. We already have the seed, but we have yet to see it all grown up. We keep our eyes on the "unseen" this is what is meant when we say "I will be saved".

Once the seed becomes a tree, there is no losing it. BUT who said the seed is a tree? Right now there are christians who are still in the seed state, and those who are in the sprouting state. BUT the seed can be taken away from us by a raven, or the seed might be growing and it dies because we neglect to feed it.

But (so many rear ends), remember it is not WE who makes that seed grow, we simply feed it and tend it and take care of our faith, God is who provides the increase.

We can draw near to God, and search God, but it is God that sees and says "Well i see her heart, she wants to get close to me, shes humbled, so i will draw near to her." And she sees God glorify Himself in her life and she is filled with joy. "It takes two to tango." We can't do anything on our own. Who gave us the seed? We are the servants, the workers, God provides the beginning and the end.

If you have salvation. If you recieved the seed. don't let it die in your hands. Give it time to grow, and you will see what you don't see yet.

2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

God bless.

 

[rnmomof7]

OSAS seems to imply that once you have salvation there is no way of losing it. Ofcourse, I believe that your faith will have you holding on dearly to salvation. But what about those who do not have faith? or those who lack faith?

We are saved by faith , so it would be impossible to be saved if you did not have faith

According to "once saved always saved", (I'm simply generalizing), the faithless will have a bit of an issue telling others that they are saved. Also, those who do say "i am forever saved" have a little problem with falling into sins. OSAS seems to say that those who fall away, fall because they were never saved in the first place, then it falls into some major overload of doctrines. OSAS says "either you have it or you don't" theres no room for "growth". And, "those who have it will never lose it." But i have to say, to never lose it would mean to never sin ever again. Seems a bit difficult.

The blood of Christ covers all our sin.
I believe in the Preservation of the Saints.
Our Salvation is due to the grace of God , He keeps those that are His.
The bible says we all sin , we all do what we do not want to do.
But God grows us up into the image of Christ..(to be fully completed after we die). That is called progressive sanctification

So what is it? Can salvation be lost? This is how i see it, if God has given you something precious, Take Care of It! if you don't, what do you think will happen? IF you willfully through that gift away, what makes you think God will give it to you again?

Is God an Indian Giver? We can do noting to earn our salvation..it is a free gift. We can do nothing to keep it. It is all His grace, not our works .

Therefore, if I, knowing with such confidence, that God is True, and seeing His blessings in my life, and i KNOW what is right and what is wrong. But then i decide, for personal gain, to ruin something that God has done. and i leave God for something else. How can i be renewed? I trample my savoir all over again.

When God looks down at you covered in His Sons righteousness .

 

[marc]

I don't believe that we can "lose" our salvation. I believe we can give the gift back, so to speak, or we can turn our back on God and walk away.
One important point though is that you can't tell externally if someone has truly walked away from God no matter how much they sin.
A friend of mine was backslidden for 10 years and externally you would have said that there is no way that he is a believer, but if anyone asked him about Jesus, he would delightfully tell them the good news. He back full force with the Lord now.

Jesus said that no one will be snatched from His hand, but He didn't say you couldn't leave on your own.

I just worry about me, I'm not resposible for anyone elses salvation. I just want to be a faithfull servant.

Marc

PS I think you answered your own question, didn't you? Many will argue though.

 

[Curt]

We are saved by faith , so it would be impossible to be saved if you did not have faith
[Faith keeps you in the race. And the life you live is the evidence of that faith. If that faith is in Christ then like He said you will be doing what He did. no doing like He did no faith, no faith salvation is gone, you can't finish the race.]

The blood of Christ covers all our sin.
I believe in the Preservation of the Saints.
Our Salvation is due to the grace of God , He keeps those that are His.
The bible says we all sin , we all do what we do not want to do.
But God grows us up into the image of Christ..(to be fully completed after we die). That is called progressive sanctification

Is God an Indian Giver? We can do noting to earn our salvation..it is a free gift. We can do nothing to keep it. [But we can sure throw that gift away if we want to.] It is all His grace, not our works . [Our works are the evidence of love, grace, mercy, faith and the salvation process working in us.]

When God looks down at you covered in His Sons righteousness .

And He gave us the freewill to throw off the covers.

 

[Christy4Christ]

I do not believe in the OSAS theory myself. I have to maintain my salvation everyday and when I backslide I must repent immediatly and ask to be forgiven. So many people have this idea that once you go up and accept Jesus as your Savior then that just does it and you never have to worry again! I do believe that once you are filled with The Holy Spirit then it becomes harder to keep committing the sames sins over and over because I feel you develop more of a concience. I don't know if this made any sense, I tried!

 

[marc]

I do not believe in the OSAS theory myself. I have to maintain my salvation everyday and when I backslide I must repent immediatly and ask to be forgiven. So many people have this idea that once you go up and accept Jesus as your Savior then that just does it and you never have to worry again! I do believe that once you are filled with The Holy Spirit then it becomes harder to keep committing the sames sins over and over because I feel you develop more of a concience. I don't know if this made any sense, I tried!

Makes sense.

Marc

And once you receive the Holy Spirit it makes it extremely hard to truly walk away from God.

 

[joshua_cheung]

I do not believe in the OSAS theory myself. I have to maintain my salvation everyday and when I backslide I must repent immediatly and ask to be forgiven. So many people have this idea that once you go up and accept Jesus as your Savior then that just does it and you never have to worry again! I do believe that once you are filled with The Holy Spirit then it becomes harder to keep committing the sames sins over and over because I feel you develop more of a concience. I don't know if this made any sense, I tried!

agree.

 

[Bastoune]

The gift of salvation is there at any time and God always takes us back, but we can certainly walk away from it. Why would Jesus, Peter, Paul and the others write about the urgency to remain true to the Gospel, if there were no fear of losing salvation by falling away? They had better things to do like look out for their lives, than to "waste time" sending letters to strengthen brethern who would not need it.

 

[MintCat]

I do not believe in the OSAS theory myself. I have to maintain my salvation everyday and when I backslide I must repent immediatly and ask to be forgiven. So many people have this idea that once you go up and accept Jesus as your Savior then that just does it and you never have to worry again! I do believe that once you are filled with The Holy Spirit then it becomes harder to keep committing the sames sins over and over because I feel you develop more of a concience. I don't know if this made any sense, I tried!
--------------

Christy, I see in your profile that you go to a Calvary Chapel. I thought that they were OSAS. I am not OSAS either. How do they react to your position?

 

[Andyman_1970]

I do not believe in the OSAS theory myself. I have to maintain my salvation everyday and when I backslide I must repent immediatly and ask to be forgiven. So many people have this idea that once you go up and accept Jesus as your Savior then that just does it and you never have to worry again! I do believe that once you are filled with The Holy Spirit then it becomes harder to keep committing the sames sins over and over because I feel you develop more of a concience. I don't know if this made any sense, I tried!

If you have to maintain your Salvation, then it becomes our "work" not the grace of God. 1 Peter 1:4-5 tells me my inheritance is kept in heaven by the power of God, not by my ability to "stay prayed up".

Anyway, I think we as humans have a hard time gettin gour minds around this whole unconditional love thing (agape) and this free gift from God for those who ask for it. God's love is beyond our comprehension, and I truly believe that when you surrender your life to Messiah Jesus, your His forever.

Do a search on the OT Jewish concept of Salvation. We in Western Christianity get all wound up about "going home". Jesus preached that when we live as God intends us, we bring Heaven here. The Jewish concept of eternal life, is that it starts the second you are counted righteous by God (for a Christian, the moment the believe). So if I already have eternal life, and I already experience heaven here, how can I lose it?

One other thing, is there any record of anyone in the Bible who was considered "saved" and then lost it? Which begs the question, do you have to be baptised again?

 

[all2elohim]

Salvation is an act of God, not man. I believe our salvation comes in three parts: 1. We are saved from the judgement of sin when we first confess Christ and believe in our heart. 2. We are being saved from the power of sin in our lives by God's Holy Spirit (called santification). 3. And when we die we will be saved from the very presence of sin altogether (glorification). All of these are acts of God. We may choose to serve Him, but it is His Holy Spirit that compels us to do so our we could never have the ability to please Him apart from the blood of Christ. "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-this is not of yourselves and it is gift of almighty God lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8).

Furthermore, I've found it is a beautiful thing that after accepting Christ, I repent because I am already saved, not because it will save me from Hell. Repenting of our sin is proof of our santification and the fact that God is still working in our lives. If not for the Holy Spirit that God has sealed inside me, I would not have the will or ability to repent.

John 10:29-Jesus will not lose one of his sheep. If one ends up being lost than they were never his in the first place. Otherwise Jesus is lying.
"Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)
Read rest of Romans 8.
"I am convinced that....absolutely nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:39.

I encourage you all to reread the Hebrews passage. There is very big difference between our "reward" (something earned) and the gift of salvation that we cannot earn. Our rewards are the heavenly Christian treasures we lay up for continued faithfulness.

Let all the glory return to God's works on the cross (not my filthy rags) and His act of grace and gives freely and undeservedly to those who realize they need Him desperately. Whoever has tasted such beauty would never (and could never) turn their back on Him.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Mint Cat,

That was an excellent question. I have only been attending Calvary for a few months but I have never heard Pastor Bob say that works do not matter at all.

When I say I do not believe OSAS it is for this reason; too many people seem to have the notion that once they get saved it is like a license to go on sinning. I have a problem with someone who thinks that because they are saved it is OK to leave church and then scream at a driver on the road because they cut him off or go home and beat his wife or rape his child and then be immune from punishment or even from Hell because they are saved! Some seem to think that their behavior toward other people as well as toward themselves and toward God will not count in the end as long as they are saved and have faith. I have a problem with that. I do understand about Agape (unconditional love) because I am a parent myself and that is the sort of love I have for my kids. Nothing they could ever do would ever make me not love them. They do however make me very angry sometimes and sometimes to the point where I need to punish them for their actions. I also do not believe that just because someone gets saved and has faith in Jesus that they are not capable of the kind of sin I mentioned. We are all human and we all make mistakes some worse than others. I believe that when we meet God and it is time for our judgement He will look at our works and not just the faith we have had. Basically faith is dead without works. This is why I believe I must maintain my salvation. I am accountable for my actions, we all are. I do believe we will be forgiven because that was promised to us BUT I think we need to acknowledge all new sin and repent. I am sorry guys this is what I believe and I think I have read scripture to back up my beliefs. I think these passages show that works are also important:

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works

John 14:12 - "Truly, truly, I say to you,he who believes in me will also do the works that I do and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.

James 2:14 - What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works ? Can his faith save him?

James 2:17 - So faith by itself, if it has no works , is dead.

James 2:18 - But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works ." Show me your faith apart from your works , and I by my works will show you my faith .

James 2:20 - Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

James 2:22 - You see that faith was active along with his works , and faith was completed by works ,

James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

James 2:26 - For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Revelation 3:2 - Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God

 

[Andyman_1970]

When I say I do not believe OSAS it is for this reason; too many people seem to have the notion that once they get saved it is like a license to go on sinning. I have a problem with someone who thinks that because they are saved it is OK to leave church and then scream at a driver on the road because they cut him off or go home and beat his wife or rape his child and then be immune from punishment or even from Hell because they are saved! Some seem to think that their behavior toward other people as well as toward themselves and toward God will not count in the end as long as they are saved and have faith. I have a problem with that.

I understand where you are coming from but let me try to clear this up. First off, if someone "claims" to be saved and does not change how they act, I would say they are in fact not saved. Paul tells us in Galatians that evidence of our faith is fruits of the Spirit. Jesus also said you will know them by thier fruits Notice how I said evidence, works do not "keep" us saved, they are evidence of spiritual rebirth. Paul also says that in Christ you are a new creation, if someone who claims to be saved does not act different, then are they a new creation?

Now do Christians sin? You bet they do. Hebrews 12 tells us that God disciplines His children. When I sin, God punishes me, does that change the reality that I am still His child, no. When you punish your children, do they stop being your child until they come back to you and ask for forgiveness? Look at the parable of the prodigal son, at any point in that parable did the son stop being the child of the father? Was Peter "saved" before Jesus was arrested? I sure think Scripture supports that he was. Now did he stop beign saved when He blew it when Jesus was arrested? Did he stop being saved when he "walked away from God" and started fishing again? Notice how in John 21 Jesus comes back to the disciples, they don't go back to Him (which will lead me to my next point)

I do understand about Agape (unconditional love) because I am a parent myself and that is the sort of love I have for my kids. Nothing they could ever do would ever make me not love them. They do however make me very angry sometimes and sometimes to the point where I need to punish them for their actions. I also do not believe that just because someone gets saved and has faith in Jesus that they are not capable of the kind of sin I mentioned. We are all human and we all make mistakes some worse than others. I believe that when we meet God and it is time for our judgement He will look at our works and not just the faith we have had. Basically faith is dead without works. This is why I believe I must maintain my salvation. I am accountable for my actions, we all are. I do believe we will be forgiven because that was promised to us BUT I think we need to acknowledge all new sin and repent.

A statement for you: there is nothing you can do to make God love you any less, there is nothing you can do to make God love you anymore. When Jesus started His earthly ministry He got baptised. What did God say when Jesus did this? He said (paraphrase) "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased." What had Jesus done to this point? Nothing, He had done none of His "Jesus stuff", no healings, no teachings. He hadn't done anything and look what God says about Him.

We are all accountable for our actions, see my comment on Hebrews 12, and Christians will stand before God and give an account for their service and the careless words they spoke. Humans are in no way in "partnership" with God regarding salvation, it is His work and His work alone. To say that humans have some part in maintaining salvation is the sin of pride.

Read Genesis 15, where God makes His covenant with Abraham. God desired a relationship with Abraham, and he wanted Abraham to understand that relationship in a concrete way. So he used a covenant ceremony that was common in Abraham’s day—a blood path walk that sealed the relationship between two parties. Animals—sheep, goats, birds—were hacked into two pieces, from head to toe, and placed on the ground with their blood flowing into a single path. Each party walked through the warm blood, their actions speaking somber words: “I will keep my part of this covenant or you can kill me like these animals.” In this passage God is the only one that walks through the blood not Abraham, that made God solely responsible for fulfilling His covenant with Abraham.

1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

If Eternal Security is not Biblical, then God is "not Sovereign" in matters concerning His own Family. If this is true then it is obvious that the above text is "not" an inspired writing, and that the Bible is only a work of man, not of God.

If "saved - lost - saved" is Biblically correct, then there should be at least one teaching in the Bible telling us to cast a wayward member from the local Church. We are supposed to rebuke the wayward, refuse to serve them the Lord's Table, but never are we exhorted to cast them out of the Church. What is my point? If a Christian may "become" a non Christian by the action of sin, then Christ as well as the Apostles would have made it plain that this "newly lost" person should be cast from the physical body of Christ. If a person is "not" in union with Christ anymore, then he has no reason to stay in the the physical Body, the Church. Yet no where in the Scripture is such a teaching established.

And finally, in John 19.30 Jesus said "It is finished". Too many people take these words and assume that they were uttered by someone who has been defeated, trodden down, or destroyed. The Greek text does not agree with this interpretation of the word TETELESTAI. The Greek is set forth in such a tense as to assert that Jesus was making a "victory cry". These were not the words of a defeated man, but the words of a Victor. Jesus realized that His death "had redeemed" the people of God. The "work of salvation was and is finished" in Christ. Salvation is not made perfect by the work of finite man. "Finished" denotes that the work is, was, and ever will be perfect in the eyes of God. The work is fully mature. How can something be added to perfection? Salvation is not what Christ did PLUS what man does after, "it is what Christ alone has accomplished for us."

Christy I noticed you used the phrase "I think" or "I have a problem with that", which you are certainly entitled to. I would however encourage you to research and read the Scriptures regarding the doctrine of eternal security.

BTW: your Scriptures from James 2 are not presented in context and do not mean that works keep your faith. I am however out of time and will try to post later regarding those passages.

Peace be with you.................

 

[joshua_cheung]

Salvation can be lost without the heart of repent.

Salvation cannot be lost with the heart of repent. God is faithful and will guide us if we admit our sin and turn to him.

 

[WayneH]

Andy......... wonderful approach.. I really think most people that have problems with OSAS is the fact people sin. YES - We do sin - we are not perfect until Christ comes again and makes us perfect.. However - we have to work on being perfect.. I AGREE - someone that accepts Christ with their mouth - but not their heart and never changes - that would raise questions as to that persons salvation - I agree that that person never really accepted Christ; thus he had nothing to lose - that person in essence turned his back and walked away from GOD.....

the book of James was written for CHRISTIANS... James is telling how a Christian is to grow and become more Christlike.. Tony Evans did a GREAT study on James.. basically the book is a guid for how as Christians - we should live...

Christy - I agree with so much of what your concerns are about OSAS.. but I do have to agree with Andy... When a person opens thier heart for Christ to be Lord and Saviour - the Holy Spirit enters and starts working on that person.. The Spirit will convict - lead and show a person how to grow.. at times we will stumble - we will bulk at what God is telling us.. but in the long run - the Spirit will be there to show the way...

You are right though - We do need to ask forgiveness when we sin - but I personally do not think that a sin committed and not repented of will keep you from Heaven if Christ is your Lord and saviour.. and yes - when we sin - we should go to the Father and ask his forgiveness.... its the right thing to do.... God bless - Have a wonderful Day..

When in Doubt - Go to God.. He really does know a lot more then we do...

 

[joshua_cheung]

but I personally do not think that a sin committed and not repented of will keep you from Heaven if Christ is your Lord and saviour.. and yes - when we sin - we should go to the Father and ask his forgiveness.... its the right thing to do.... God bless - Have a wonderful Day..

When in Doubt - Go to God.. He really does know a lot more then we do...

There is a contradiction.
If Christ is our lord and saviour, and a sin is committed and we know that, we automatically repent our sin. How can christ is your lord and saviour, you commit a sin and not repent? If not repent, can Christ be your Lord??

 

[Andyman_1970]

There is a contradiction.
If Christ is our lord and saviour, and a sin is committed and we know that, we automatically repent our sin. How can christ is your lord and saviour, you commit a sin and not repent? If not repent, can Christ be your Lord??

Joshua, there are no contradictions on the Word of God. I would direct you to what I wrote to Christy:

In John 19.30 Jesus said "It is finished". Too many people take these words and assume that they were uttered by someone who has been defeated, trodden down, or destroyed. The Greek text does not agree with this interpretation of the word TETELESTAI. The Greek is set forth in such a tense as to assert that Jesus was making a "victory cry". These were not the words of a defeated man, but the words of a Victor. Jesus realized that His death "had redeemed" the people of God. The "work of salvation was and is finished" in Christ. Salvation is not made perfect by the work of finite man. "Finished" denotes that the work is, was, and ever will be perfect in the eyes of God. The work is fully mature. How can something be added to perfection? Salvation is not what Christ did PLUS what man does after, "it is what Christ alone has accomplished for us."

When I surrendered to Jesus and asked Him to be my Lord and Savior, He forgave me of all the sins I had commited, were commiting, and will ever commit. Check out Hebrews 12, as a child of God if I sin and do not repent, He will punish me, but that does not change the fact that I am still His child. Parents don't punish other peoples children, they punish thier own.

So the example of sinning and not repenting then dying (see Annians and Sophira) I will answer for my actions to Jesus and He will hold me accountable, but my salvation is secure.

I hope that helped.

May He give you His Shalom..................

The thinking of staying "prayed up" to "get in" trivializes the work of our Messiah on the cross. God is bigger than our sin, and His unconditional love is beyond the comprehension of our human minds. Paul said, were sin does abound, grace doth more abound.

I guess I would sum it up, go back to my post on Genesis 15, our covenant with God is not dependant on ANYTHING we do, He is solely responsible for honoring His contract with us.

 

[Curt]

Deut 4:40
40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.
(KJV)

Deut 5:10
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
(KJV)

Deut 5:29
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
(KJV)

Ps 15:1-2
1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
(KJV)

Ps 73:27
27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
(KJV)

Isa 33:15-17
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
(KJV)

John 14:15-17
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(KJV)

John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
(KJV)

John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(KJV)

James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
(KJV)

I Jn 4:19-21
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his
(KJV)
These Scriptures which are a minute few that deal with the process of salvation show without a doubt that salvation is conditional, and that we can love God, and leave Him to go whoring after other God's. All The Scriptures used by OSAS when included with the total of The Bible Scriptures that deal with the doctrine of salvation will not stand. Which is why God tells us in His Scriptures that true Bible doctrines can only be formed from The Scriptures taking line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, not leaning to our own understanding but trusting totaly in God, not privately interpreting, but relying only on The Holy Spirits interpretations.

 

[theFijian]

Once Saved Always Saved =

Romans 8:38, 39 - For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philipians 1:6 - '...being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus'

2 Peter 1:10 - Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure
(Note: it does not say 'make sure your are called or elected')

Yet....

Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

To say that one who is saved can slip out of God's hands is to deny God's sovereignty and to deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It is a dangerous heresey that can offer a believer no surety of their salvation, unlike what Peter talks of in 2 Peter 1:10.

Andy

 

[Curt]

In John 19.30 Jesus said "It is finished". Too many people take these words and assume that they were uttered by someone who has been defeated, trodden down, or destroyed. The Greek text does not agree with this interpretation of the word TETELESTAI. The Greek is set forth in such a tense as to assert that Jesus was making a "victory cry". These were not the words of a defeated man, but the words of a Victor. Jesus realized that His death "had redeemed" the people of God. The "work of salvation was and is finished" in Christ. Salvation is not made perfect by the work of finite man. "Finished" denotes that the work is, was, and ever will be perfect in the eyes of God. The work is fully mature. How can something be added to perfection? Salvation is not what Christ did PLUS what man does after, "it is what Christ alone has accomplished for us."

John 17:4
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
(KJV)

Jesus finished the work that God sent Him to do, which was to free us from satans bondage which took away our freewill to choose who we will serve, and restore that freewill choice to us.To pay for all of our BC sins, and those confessed, and repented of AC. To demonstrate to us that with The Holy Spirits indwelling leadership, and empowerment we like He did can resist all temptations that satan brings to us, and freely choose to take the righteous way of obedience which His garden prayers demonstrate to us even if it means resisting to the shedding of blood. And all this encompassed in His awsome love which is the motivation for it all. And We can have that same love for Him if we will abdicate the throne of our hearts, and let Him ascend to it. If we do His love in us flowing back to Him from us will be evidenced by our keeping His commandments, which will result in God The Father, and Jesus, making their abode with us, and being baptized in The Holy Spirit we will have the fulness of God dwelling in us. Which will insure us that like Brother Paul said we will be able to finish the race, till faith has been perfected in us. And like Brother Peter tells us:
1 Pet 1:9
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
(KJV)