OSAS: Can salvation be lost?

[Boanerge]

What i mean by "lose salvation" is turning your back on God.

OSAS stands in the position of the Believer, but what about the Non-believer? what about those who didn't repent from the bottom of their hearts? they will Hold on to this OSAS doctrine to let a few of their sins to slip by. They are already saved right? What will a few sins do to them?

There are actually people out here who abuse the doctrine. The whole point is that sin is like a plague, and any doctrine that allows us to think that some kind of sin is ok, is not true. Because all sin leads to one purpose, to lead you away from God.

Without the blood of Christ we are all sinners, why is it that with the blood of Christ we still consider ourselves sinners? Shouldn't OSAS followers be those who hold that they don't sin? But we say, they say, everyone says, "we still sin sometimes." Although this is true, its not ok. how exactly do we "not sin" then? by watching our steps? That would be difficult right? actually its not its not to watch our steps but to keep our eyes on Christ. You just keep focused on God, be christlike, do the right things, don't be selfish.

But IF this is the case, then why do we have to make some doctrine like Predestinations "Elections" "OSAS" and splinter the body of Christ?

No matter what the sin is, Deep or Shallow, leave it alone and it will spread like a plague, and turn you away from God.

OSAS says that you will never turn away from God no matter what you do. And people abuse of this. Saying that a few sins here and there is ok, yell at someone, then go to church and repent, its ok, because you are already saved and nothing you do can make you turn from it.

(1) We were sinners without Christ.

(2) Christ died to wash those sins away.

(3) we are saved by believing and trusting in Him.

(4) We no longer live in sin. But old habits do kick in, so we go to God to help us change.

(5) Those who know something is wrong, but do them anyway, and neglect to change, because they know they are saved no matter what, will have doubts with their salvation once those "white sins" grow bigger and darker to bare.

(6) We do not need a doctrine about Permanent salvation when we know that the Holy Spirit will guide our steps in everything we do.

(7) This then should give you confidence, that in God, He will Strengthen you, and will keep you lifted up, and if there is some kind of lesson to learn, that we slip learning, it is not to stay down, its to get even stronger by standing up, and staying up.

The whole point is that those who have complete trust in God know that there salvation is secure. It is those who don't have much faith in God but use "OSAS" to get away with things. These people who abuse are most likely to turn away, but God won't let them go that easily.. but because of their misconception of OSAS, they will go through some hard times.

This is why i don't agree with OSAS, because it is easy to get it confused.

 

[joshua_cheung]

What i mean by "lose salvation" is turning your back on God.

The whole point is that those who have complete trust in God know that there salvation is secure. It is those who don't have much faith in God but use "OSAS" to get away with things. These people who abuse are most likely to turn away, but God won't let them go that easily.. but because of their misconception of OSAS, they will go through some hard times.

This is why i don't agree with OSAS, because it is easy to get it confused.

Agree.

I remember somewhere in OT said that if someone turns away from righteousness, all the good things he had done is not counted, he will surely die because of his sin. But if someone turns away from their sins, all the bad things he had done is not counted, he will surely lived because of his repentence and righteousness.

 

[Curt]

There are Scriptures that say you can be saved, and loose your salvation, one or two are found in Hebrews. and there is one in Peter that makes this so definite, that there should be no doubt. There is not one Scripture that makes an outright statement that once we are saved we can't loose our salvation.

2 Pet 2:18,20-22
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(KJV)

To make this support OSAS one would have to privately interpret These Scriptures to fit that doctrine, and add to them or take away from them in some way. This Speaks for itself.


Heb 3:8-12
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(KJV)
Addressing those who were saved out of Egypt, but refused to complete their salvation as they were directed to in order for Him to put them in His Land.

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(KJV)
If one is sanctified he is saved.

Heb 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(KJV)

There is only one place we can draw back from to go into perdition. There are only two kingdoms in this universe.

 

[joshua_cheung]

When I surrendered to Jesus and asked Him to be my Lord and Savior, He forgave me of all the sins I had commited, were commiting, and will ever commit.

I argee. But there is one condition, repentence .

We have different understanding of the Bible. Forgiveness comes after repentence. Without repentence, there is no forgiveness.

 

[Andyman_1970]

To make this support OSAS one would have to privately interpret These Scriptures to fit that doctrine, and add to them or take away from them in some way. This Speaks for itself.

Those that beleive you can lose your salvation do the same thing. No one has yet on this thread has been able to reconcile this:

1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

If Eternal Security is not Biblical, then God is "not Sovereign" in matters concerning His own Family. If this is true then it is obvious that the above text is "not" an inspired writing, and that the Bible is only a work of man, not of God. It would appear that you provide text's that seem to support that a person can loose their salvation, but this passage in 1 Peter indicates that our salvation is kept in heaven by the power of God.

This begs the question: Is our sin (once we become a Christian) more powerful than God? Can our sin take our salvation from heaven where it is kept by the power of God?

If eternal life is something we can loose, then it's no longer eternal. Eternal (American Heritage College Dictionary) having no begining or end, existing outside time; Continuing without interuption, perpetual, continual; forever true, changeless; seeminly endless, interminable. So is salvation "eternal life", the Scriptures refer to it as such. How can eternal life be "eternal" if it can be lost? If eternal life was not meant to be "eternal" then God would have inspired the writers of the Scriptures to use a different word there to describe salvation.

One other question, how is a Christian suppose to have peace if we are constantly wringing our hands in fear of "did I do something today that would cause me to loose my salvation"?

Why has this become such a divisive point with Christians?

May He give you His peace....................

 

[Andyman_1970]

I argee. But there is one condition, repentence .

We have different understanding of the Bible. Forgiveness comes after repentence. Without repentence, there is no forgiveness.

Yes we do have very differnt understandings of the Scriptures. If you agree Jesus forgave me of all the sins I have ever commited, and that requires repentance, how can I repent of sins I have not yet commited?

Repentance is the changing of a persons actions regarding something. Your assertion that repentance is required before there can be forgiveness would seem to indicate that we have to "work" or do something before we are forgiven. This is contradictary to the concept of grace presented in the Scriptures. Grace, an unmerited gift, a gift we do not deserve.

So how can there be grace (this gift I recieve that I do not deserve) and works?

Do I have to "work" to keep my gift? If so then it's not an unmerited gift anymore, it is something I earned and by my power kept (see my post on the passage in 1 Peter about salvation kept in heaven by the power of God).

Peace be with you...............

 

[Boanerge]

1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

We are kept by the power of God through faith. The inheritance is for the Faithful.

This is how i see it. Before Jesus was born, We all lived in the Red house. This house was doomed for destruction. Then When Jesus Died on the cross, He created a new house, a Blue House, and told those who believed in Him to follow Him into this blue house, unlike the Red house, this Blue house is not going to be destroyed.

Now many of us who believe and trust in Jesus moved from the Red House to the Blue House. We are saved. However there are times when our Redhouse Habits kick in. Temptation. You defeat it by realising where you are and who you represent now- no longer of the flesh but of the Spirit. You worship God, read the bible and pray to get into your new bluehouse habits, going from Milk to Solid food.

But there are people who live in the Blue House, but want to be in the Red House. The Holy Spirit will keep guiding them and strengthening them to continue with Faith in the Blue House, but the Red House keeps calling them. They fall into the Old habits, and don't want to get out of them. The Holy Spirit is there for those who want to change, but those who don't want to change can leave the safe Blue House, and go into the hazardous Red House, unless there is a special calling on this person like that of Paul, where the grace of God makes it extremely clear that they need the Lord.

But the OSAS goes a bit like this. That once you are in the Blue House, you are there for good. Even if you wanted to leave the Blue house, according to OSAS, you can't. However, no one in their right mind, knowing that the Blue house is the Mercy zone, and the Red House is the Wrath zone, will want to leave the blue house. But the problem is, some people don't actually know how hazardous it is to be in the Red House, because of this they want to go to the Red House. They turned their backs on the Blue House.

It is possible to return to the blue house, because the Red house hasn't been destroyed yet, But OSAS says it is impossible to leave the Blue House no matter how corrupted you get. And those believing in OSAS, and living in the Blue House, will assume that everything is good and dandy, they can sit back and relax, this is where sin, and memories of the old begin to rise up and rule the person.

This of course, makes sense if you see things in a Sinful State (Red House) VS. Faithful State (Blue House).

There are times where people living in the Red House do Bluehouse Habits, But instead of moving into the Blue House, they never Heard of Jesus and remain in the Red House. I'm sure God has the most righteous way to Judge them to see whether they are destroyed with the Red house or SAved with the BLue House. Same for the Vice Versa.

The whole point is that, although difficult it may be, because the Lord will not let you get kicked out that easily, One can get kicked out of the Blue House.

The Bible says, for those who have been in the Blue House and never dropped their Redhouse Habits, that they can humble themselves and repent and God will take them back in, like the Lost son parable, and Change their ways. So Some of us learn the hard way, that a Life on your own and Without Christ is difficult.

Turning you back on the Blue house, that is what i call "losing salvation". God can still work in your life and restore you. But if you don't want to be restored, you don't want to change, you have this set in your heart, then thats like saying "NO!" to the Holy Spirit.

The Faithful understand how much they need God in their lives, therefore it is unlikely for them to ever lose their salvation, which is where the OSAS comes from. But with OSAS those who say "Lord Lord" with their mouths but not from their hearts, will have a misconception that they are saved. OR are they saved?

But my Number 1 concern is that OSAS seems to imply that you can never fall.

So when someone feels they are saved, and all of a sudden a storm comes and they are falling they begin to doubt. "AM i really saved? I just fell into sin, wasn't the purpose of Jesus to clean us of our sins so that we can be saved? so then why is it that i was taught that i am always saved even though at this moment i am in sin? Since i am always saved, is there an obligation to go repent? I don't need too right? I'm already saved... Let me not bother God with repenting, I'll just forget it like it never happened."

We look at the OSAS doctrine from One Angle, but when we fail to look at it from other angles, we take it in as if its truth and nothing is wrong with it. We fail to test these and examine these and we result with confusion, splits, and misunderstandings etc.


We all can have salvation, salvation is for all of us, but remaining in the State of Salvation, Faithful and obedient, living not in the flesh but in the spirit, then we inherit Eternal life with God.

And there are times when we fall, but if we Remain in the State of Sin, outside of Faithfulness, this is where we DON'T want to be when the Lord comes, even if we have previously confessed "Lord, Lord" with our mouths.

 

[Andyman_1970]

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We are kept by the power of God through faith. The inheritance is for the Faithful. .

Agreed. By faith you are saved, not by works.

But there are people who live in the Blue House, but want to be in the Red House. The Holy Spirit will keep guiding them and strengthening them to continue with Faith in the Blue House, but the Red House keeps calling them. They fall into the Old habits, and don't want to get out of them. The Holy Spirit is there for those who want to change, but those who don't want to change can leave the safe Blue House, and go into the hazardous Red House, unless there is a special calling on this person like that of Paul, where the grace of God makes it extremely clear that they need the Lord.

Notice I highlighted the words "want". If the habitual pattern for a person who CLAIMS to be a Christian is contrary to the fruits of the Spirit (their "wants"), that person was never saved to begin with. When I sin, I immediatly know it, and am convicted by the Holy Spirit, I ask God to forgive me and do my best to turn from that sin (repent).

In the past three years in my church it has been amazing how many people have gotten saved that when they were young made a profession of faith. Those people admit they did not take making Jesus their Lord and Savior seriously and lived a life contrary to the fruits of the Spirit, and were not saved "the first time".

I believe this is where those who do not believe in the Biblical doctrine of eternal security get confused with those who do.

But the OSAS goes a bit like this. That once you are in the Blue House, you are there for good. Even if you wanted to leave the Blue house, according to OSAS, you can't. However, no one in their right mind, knowing that the Blue house is the Mercy zone, and the Red House is the Wrath zone, will want to leave the blue house. But the problem is, some people don't actually know how hazardous it is to be in the Red House, because of this they want to go to the Red House. They turned their backs on the Blue House.

Our church (a normal denomination, not some "fringe" cult) preaches and teaches eternal security. At no point in the 4+ years I have attended has anything ever been said "Live like you want, it will all be ok you're still saved, don't worry about it". Actually the preaching and teaching is just the opposite, that if you are a child of God, if you have experinced spiritual rebirth in the Messiah Jesus, then your life will demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit (Jesus says they will know them by their fruits), and if your life does not, if you not any different than when you were lost, then something is very wrong (ie are you really saved).

I believe many "churches" today that believe the doctrine of eternal security, focus more on Jesus being their Savior and very little on Him being their Lord. The thing is he has to be Lord before He can be your savior.

And those believing in OSAS, and living in the Blue House, will assume that everything is good and dandy, they can sit back and relax, this is where sin, and memories of the old begin to rise up and rule the person.

First I think you are painting those of us who believe in the doctrine with a broad and inaccurate brush and making some inaccurate assumptions there. Anyway, as a chruch that believes the doctrine of eternal security, no one sits around and thinks things are dandy if a brother or sister is habitually sinning. I worked in the youth ministry for 3 years, and when a teenager would stop coming to chruch and run with and participate with the wrong crowd, the first thing any youth worker would ask that student is if they are in fact saved, and if so were they serious. So like I said I think you are making some inaccurate assumptions asserting that everyone who believes eternal security is eating bon bons and living like the world.

There are times where people living in the Red House do Bluehouse Habits, But instead of moving into the Blue House, they never Heard of Jesus and remain in the Red House. I'm sure God has the most righteous way to Judge them to see whether they are destroyed with the Red house or SAved with the BLue House. Same for the Vice Versa.

What? The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is THE way THE truth and THE life, NO ONE comes to the Father but through Him.

like the Lost son parable

Like I wrote in my first (i think) post on this thread, at no point in that parable did the lost son ever stop being the fathers son. Regardless of his decision, he was still the fathers son, his actions did not change that.

But if you don't want to be restored, you don't want to change, you have this set in your heart, then thats like saying "NO!" to the Holy Spirit.

Paul says that if your in Christ you are a new creation. If you act like your "old self" and nothing is changed, then you are not a new creation. Again see my point above, if your wants are contrary to the Fruits of the Spirit, it's time to examine your faith and see if you really are saved.

So when someone feels they are saved, and all of a sudden a storm comes and they are falling they begin to doubt. "AM i really saved? I just fell into sin, wasn't the purpose of Jesus to clean us of our sins so that we can be saved? so then why is it that i was taught that i am always saved even though at this moment i am in sin? Since i am always saved, is there an obligation to go repent? I don't need too right? I'm already saved... Let me not bother God with repenting, I'll just forget it like it never happened."

I like that someone "feels" they are saved. What does that "feel" like? The human heart and emotions can fool us, unless you examine your life with the Scriptures you really won't know if you are saved. When Jesus died on the cross and said "It is finished" He blotted out every sin I did commit, am commiting, and will commit. We repent because the one of the purposes of the life of a Christian is to become more like Him, and when I sin I need to repent and turn from that, our sanctification (maturity or perfection depending on what translation you use). Now the eternal punishment (Hell) by Jesus' work on the cross, but God still disciplines His children, and if I refuse to repent, I will reap what I have sown.

We look at the OSAS doctrine from One Angle, but when we fail to look at it from other angles, we take it in as if its truth and nothing is wrong with it. We fail to test these and examine these and we result with confusion, splits, and misunderstandings etc.

I don't believe the biblical doctrine of eternal security because that's what taught at my church, or because some pastor or teacher told me it's biblical. I believe it to be biblical doctrine through careful systematic study, research of the Scriptures, not what someone said in a book or tape.

but remaining in the State of Salvation, Faithful and obedient, living not in the flesh but in the spirit, then we inherit Eternal life with God.

What exactly do I need to do to "remain"? What prayers, actions, etc are required? Sounds like works base salvation to me, which is contrary to God's grace (see my other posts).

We in the western world view Biblical salvation as "one day I'll get to heaven". The problem is that the Scriptures were written by Hebrews with an "eastern" thought process. The Hebrew concpet of salvation is that your eternal life starts the second you are saved, not one day when you get to heaven. Jesus never told anyone "Hey I'll see you in heaven". The woman that was bleeding He told her to "Go in peace (Shalom)". Peace in the Hebrew meaning is not the absence of conflict, it is spiritual health and wholeness, walking in harmony with God (ie being saved). Jesus said salvation is now.

Salvation is not about getting saved so now you won't be "left behind". Salvation is a way of life, in which you are set free to live as God orginially created you to live. It's not just that the cross saves me it's that the cross goes to work inside me and molds me and shapes me into the person God orginally intended me to be.

This has been a good discussion.

May He give you His peace...............

 

[Boanerge]

Notice I highlighted the words "want". If the habitual pattern for a person who CLAIMS to be a Christian is contrary to the fruits of the Spirit (their "wants"), that person was never saved to begin with. When I sin, I immediatly know it, and am convicted by the Holy Spirit, I ask God to forgive me and do my best to turn from that sin (repent).

So then there are two things. Those saved in Christ, and those Living in Christ.

This is how i see it, Salvation is like a rope and all who Confess that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior has held on to this rope. They are saved.

But what happens if someone lets go? Do you mean they were never saved to begin with?

6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

according to what you tell me, they never were parttakers in the first place? That if they let go of the rope, they never held on to the rope in the first place? But they do know who Jesus is, they confessed Him, they know the kind of life they had to live. They knew who to trust in when things get tough. They were blessed, they had their ups. They are saved. But IF they were to fall away, what then? they were never really saved? They never got blessed? They never knew who Jesus was?

In the past three years in my church it has been amazing how many people have gotten saved that when they were young made a profession of faith. Those people admit they did not take making Jesus their Lord and Savior seriously and lived a life contrary to the fruits of the Spirit, and were not saved "the first time".

What do you mean by "saved the first time"? What i mean is that they were saved, they just never took it seriously, it was not that they were never saved to begin with.

I think i see what the issue is. There is a verse where Jesus says "Those my Father give to me i will not lose." In light of this verse we feel that it is impossible for anyone to say "I was saved." Because if they really were saved then they would have never fallen away. So then we come to the conclusion that they were never saved in the first place.

So then how were those who have fallen away "parttakers of the Holy Spirit" if they were never really saved in the first place?

First I think you are painting those of us who believe in the doctrine with a broad and inaccurate brush and making some inaccurate assumptions there. Anyway, as a chruch that believes the doctrine of eternal security, no one sits around and thinks things are dandy if a brother or sister is habitually sinning. I worked in the youth ministry for 3 years, and when a teenager would stop coming to chruch and run with and participate with the wrong crowd, the first thing any youth worker would ask that student is if they are in fact saved, and if so were they serious. So like I said I think you are making some inaccurate assumptions asserting that everyone who believes eternal security is eating bon bons and living like the world.

I never said everyone. More like *But there are those who abuse the doctrine*, and this I can't ignore. This is what i mean by observing it from different angles.

When i was reading Hebrews 6 I noticed that Paul never says "It is impossible for those who have tasted the heavenly gifts, to fall away" He says "it is impossible for those who have tasted the heavenly gifts, and fall away, to be restored back into repentance after realizing what they have done."

Like I wrote in my first (i think) post on this thread, at no point in that parable did the lost son ever stop being the fathers son. Regardless of his decision, he was still the fathers son, his actions did not change that.

What if the son never returns? Does this mean that he never really was his son in the first place?

If the son falls away, if he were to stay outside, he loses his position. But he doesn't lose the fact that he was the king's son.

Another way to see this is like the Father has adopted us all as sons. This was made possible by believing in Jesus. we were like lost sons returning to our Creator. But lets say, we return and then turn our back once again from God. this doesn't change the fact that we were children of God.

It seems that you are telling me, those who fall away were never children to begin with.

What exactly do I need to do to "remain"? What prayers, actions, etc are required? Sounds like works base salvation to me, which is contrary to God's grace (see my other posts).

There is nothing we have to do to have the Father take us in. It was Jesus that made it all possible.

Remember, Adam and Eve Fell away. Seperated from God. Man was never created apart from God. We are like the lost son. Israel is that other son that gets mad because they see how forgiving the Father is. Therefore Jesus glued us back together. He restored us. But what if we decide to go away again? We fell away once, when we do it again, we put Jesus to an open shame. This is what Hebrew 6:4-6 means to me.

This is what i mean by Remain. When we return to the Father, there was nothing we did to make Him accept us. Once He has accepted us we have the choice to stay home (pray, read the bible, do good, not be prideful, selfish, worship God, follow trust) or to leave home again (go back to our old sins, lusts, fleshly worldly desires.)

It was by the Grace of God the Father took us in. It is our Works to live as a new creation. and it is by our Faith in God to be able to work and live according to how He wants us to live.

Salvation is not about getting saved so now you won't be "left behind". Salvation is a way of life, in which you are set free to live as God orginially created you to live. It's not just that the cross saves me it's that the cross goes to work inside me and molds me and shapes me into the person God orginally intended me to be.

Amen and i agree 100%. What i am trying to point out is that there is OSAS and there is OSAS+PLUS (OSAS plus what you just stated)

There are people that believe in OSAS without that last quote you made. And this is not something people believe (osas minus your last quote) automatically, but it is something that slips in slowly but surely. They fail to see that a change in lifestyle is part of Salvation. They firgure, "The father took me in, theres nothing else i have to worry about."

I'm not saying all OSAS believers believe like this. Honestly i knew that Those who do preach Eternal Security also preach that there is a difference between those who are in the world and say "lord, lord" and those who are in Christ and say "lord, lord". The latter being those who enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What i have concluded is this. There was no need to make a seperate doctrine of it. it turns the Bread of Life, the Word of God, Stale. God's Salvation loses its meaning and as you have witnessed, we get every thing twisted and confused.

The Basic matter of it all is this.

If you are confessing Jesus, who died for your sins, then you are no longer of the world. There are times that we slip, but remember, through faith, that we want to be more like christ and not like our old selves. And our Salvation is Secure. this is OSAS+plus.

I say it like this.

It's not those who believe, even demons believe. But those who BELIEVE AND TRUST with Faith in Christ.

 

[joshua_cheung]

Yes we do have very differnt understandings of the Scriptures. If you agree Jesus forgave me of all the sins I have ever commited, and that requires repentance, how can I repent of sins I have not yet commited?

What I mean is the sin we know. We did it or the sin which is inside our heart. We have to repent and change our heart.

Repentance is the changing of a persons actions regarding something. Your assertion that repentance is required before there can be forgiveness would seem to indicate that we have to "work" or do something before we are forgiven. This is contradictary to the concept of grace presented in the Scriptures. Grace, an unmerited gift, a gift we do not deserve.

Wrong. Repentence is not work. Repentence is a state of regret. We regret our sin.

 

[joshua_cheung]

I never said everyone. More like *But there are those who abuse the doctrine*, and this I can't ignore. This is what i mean by observing it from different angles.

This is what i mean by Remain. When we return to the Father, there was nothing we did to make Him accept us. Once He has accepted us we have the choice to stay home (pray, read the bible, do good, not be prideful, selfish, worship God, follow trust) or to leave home again (go back to our old sins, lusts, fleshly worldly desires.)

I say it like this.

It's not those who believe, even demons believe. But those who BELIEVE AND TRUST with Faith in Christ.

I agree.

 

[Beoga]

[

2 Pet 2:18,20-22
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
(KJV)

being new, forgive me if i repeat much.
notice how this verse says dogs, and all throughout scripture christians are called sheep (this has been what i have found in my "research"). So does it already change here? I don't think so, i don't think Peter was talking about true authentic believers.
There is always going to be people that abuse any doctrine. and one like osas, is going to be one. Yes i believe that i can go out and murder people, commit adultrey, steal, etc. and still be just as much saved. Why? Because Christ sacfrices cover all sins, even intentional ones. I don't see in scripture where it is talking about "christ died for many sins except ones done on purpose and things as bad as murder." all i see is "Christ Died for ALL Sins." It doesn't matter what you, you are still going to be saved. Doesn't matter if there if you "lose faith" or "stop believing" or you don't repent, because those things didn't get you saved. If they did, the ephesians 2:8-9 shouldn't be in there. God used those things as "agents" for saving you, but it was ALL GOD that saved you, not you. Otherwise we would be able boast about we saving ourselves. Now would I go out and murder and do all the things i just mentioned or tell other fellow christians to go out and do those things. No, because those things are not what God wants, and a christian will strive to do the things of God and try and get away from those things. Are they going to stumble at times and strive for the things of the world, yes. but thank God his Grace is greater than us and our sins.

 

[Curt]

Quote:
being new, forgive me if i repeat much.
notice how this verse says dogs, and all throughout scripture christians are called sheep (this has been what i have found in my "research"). So does it already change here? I don't think so, i don't think Peter was talking about true authentic believers.

You realy need to look at what Peter wrote. His use of dog, and sow was in reference to a proverb, and a simile as to what would happened to those that had been saved choose to go back to the world. He was talking to us.

The attacts against OSAS are from Scripture and that without any attempt at changing their meaning. Look at how you tried to change the meaning of what Peter said, by the addition of your own words, and attempt to reinterpret who he was talking to, and about. Also you tried to use Scriptures of another simile of the relationship between us, and Christ to support your false interpretation. This will always be your error, because that doctrine can in no way stand up under the whole of Bible Doctrine regarding salvation.

 

[joevberry3]

Hi! I also disagree with OSAS. We have to believe in Jesus. Believe is always present tense in John 3:16 and John 3:36. In other words we have to believe now.
Paul commanded us to die daily to our sinful nature--why did he command us to do that?
Yeah, after salvation there will be acts and works rather or not we want to agree on that. Peter said for us to do works proving repentance.
Im not saying works gets us to heaven. But we will do works if we are truly saved.
How about the demons- they believe in Jesus--are they going to Heaven? NOPE! Goes to show there is more than simply believing in Jesus.
God Bless You all,
Joe
for more on this and other articles visit my website--email me at joevberry3@aol.com for the link

 

[Curt]

Quote
Paul commanded us to die daily to our sinful nature--why did he command us to do that?

Because that what you did yesterday will not get you through to day. This denys OSAS.

 

[JVD]

OK...I'm not going to definitevely answer this question. I don't think it can be done. I've been thinking about it for 30 years plus. But I will throw a few things out there that may make it even more confusing...or perhaps help us to define it. There are four basic positions and I weigh each of them against the sovereignty of God since God is really all there is in the end...and in the beginning.

Looking at it from the point of view of God's sovereignty. There are only two views that are consistent with the sovereignty of God. Pure Calvinism and Universalism.

Pure Calvinism says that God chooses who he will bring to himself based on his own plans. Man has nothing to do with it. Those that God wants to believe will and everyone else will not be part of the kingdom.

Universalism also says that God is in control and man has nothing to do with it. All are saved no matter what they believe. Jesus died for all and his death paid the price no matter the actions or beliefs of anyone.

I can't accept either of the above views, however, I acknowledge that they are the only consistent views with the total sovereignty of God which I do accept.

Free Will teaches that man must make a choice. OSAS says that after that choice is made man does not have the free will to 'UNMAKE' that choice. You would have to say this teaches a limited free will and a limited sovereignty. It's kind of a compromise.

Pure free will teaches that man makes a choice to follow God and that choice is constantly before him in his every thought and action. This almost totally leaves out the sovereignty of God and depends almost totally on the actions of man. It also leaves man in a very precarious position because any sin no matter how small could be enough to doom him.

I think we are all somewhere within those four positions. I have looked at all the scripture and frankly I'm tired of throwing it back and forth. I take my place with the OSAS camp generally while acknowleging it's weaknesses and also acknowleging the weaknesses of the other positions.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't think it is an issue of can salvation be lost or is one once saved always saved. . I think these are attempts at trying to describe salvation by only focusing on part of it . .

But salvation is a process . . I posted this elsewhere, I may as well post it here . I hope you find it helpful! After reading the post, look at my sig line . . it is about the process . . there are several scripture passages to look up if you want to . .


Look at my sig line . . Salvation is a process . .

Arminianism comes cloeset in many ways to what Catholicism teaches, but it falls short of it . . because it teaches that you can be saved, loose your salvation, be saved again, etc, etc , .


But you do not become saved, then loose your salvation then get save again any more than you get saved and stay that way no matter what you do after that point!

Salvation is a future event towards which we are progressing . . it is a process with an end in sight . .

If you fall away from God, you do not loose what you have not yet received . . but you do fall off the path . .. you can get up, dust yourself off, and get back on the path, or you can stay off . .

When you are saved is when your life ends and you have reached the end of the path . . if you are not on the path, then you are not saved . .

Salvation has to do with being in a state of Sanctifying Grace . . this is not something that speaks to a one time event in the past, or a future event . . but speaks to our current state with God . . for the present is all we have . .

The Present is what touches eternity . . It is in the present that I need concern myself with my relationship with God in the here and now .. not what it was at some point in the past, or what it might be at some point in the future . .but what it is right now!

For if I reach the end of my life right now, the question is, am I on that path right now?

It is ALL by God's GRACE . . I can do nothing to receive it of my own self . . the only thing I can do is choose to respond to God's Grace or not . . if I respond to it, more Grace is given . . and I am on the path . . The continual receiving of God's Grace and respoinding to it MOVES me along the path . . but I have the choice to stop responding at any time, and if I do, I depart from the path . .

Salvation is a process . . you can only know where you are right now if you ar right with God right now . . the past is gone, the future has not yet happened . .

You do not loose your salvation when you leave the path . . you loose your future hope of Salvation, which hope can be regained through repentance and responding to God's Grace . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Beoga]

J. Vernon McGee, a well loved Bible teacher, wrote about this passage, saying that that there are prodigal sons (Luke 15) and there are prodigal pigs! (2 Pet 2:22) The prodigal son gave up that which his father had for him and wasted it all through sinful living. But because he was a true son, he turned, repented and came back to his father. A prodigal pig on the other hand, is one who comes into church for a season, tries to tidy himself up, yet not being truly saved and still having the nature of a pig, his desire is to return to the mud from which he came and that is exactly what he does! A prodigal son may stupidly go into the world for a season, but in his heart he will never find rest and will long for, and return, home. Where as a prodigal pig may wash all the mud off, come into church, but in his heart he won’t find rest either, for the nature of a pig just loves mud and given time will return.



The people mentioned in 2 Peter 2:22 are prodigal pigs who do not have a true saving faith. We should also see the context that this whole passage is talking about. The whole chapter is concerning false teachers and false prophets. They ‘forsake the right way and go astray’, ‘revelling in their deceptions.’ Doesn’t sound like sheep to me!


that is a better writing of what i ment to say.
i will post more when i am more awake and it isn't one in the morning.

also, have at some point in my life believed in osas (right now) and that an authentic born again believer could lose their salvation (couple of years ago), i have found that the belief that a christian can lose their salvation has a very small view of God and what he can do, while the the belief of osas has a much larger view of God and his power.

 

[JVD]

littleflower...you are correct in the statement that armeniansm is closest to your definition of the Catholic view of salvation. I do like your definition of the Catholic Doctrine...it is clear and well put.

I think armeniansm may actually be closer than you think to your view. It only differs by degrees. Either way you can step off the path and back on, daily, hourly, perhaps even by the minute. Your salvation depends on where you are in relation to that path at the moment of death.

 

[Beoga]

Paul commanded us to die daily to our sinful nature--why did he command us to do that?

Because that what you did yesterday will not get you through to day. This denys OSAS.
------------------------------------------------------------
yes because our sinful nature keeps creeping on back in. your right when you say that what i did yesterday does not go through today, but Christ's death on the Cross and his grace and salvation covers through today.

How present is the present? You are right in saying that John 3:14-16 and John 3:36 use present tense. But using this arguement that you constantly have to be believe to be saved limits the use of the present tense. If someone were to ask me what i do in my spare time I might respond "well i am working in a dark room and writing poetry."
Notice that i used the progressive form of the present tense verbs, writing and working. But no one would ascertain from my answer that i am working in the dark room and writing poetry at the same time.Neither would the understanding be exactly that i am not sleeping, hanging out with friends or eating. what if i said i live in wyoming and someone saw me somewhere would they call me a liar. i could be somewhere else and yet still presently live in wyoming.

Jesus use the present tense in a variety of ways just like we do. look at John 14:3
"Everyone who DRINKS from this water shall thirst again.
the term drinks is used in present tense. if the present tense always means continues uniterrupted action, Jesus is saying that those who are continuesly drinking from Jacob's well will thirst again! this doesn't makes sense and would be impossible. Jesus's meaning is clear. he is referring to the normal practice of drinkin until one's thirst is quenched.
so to interpret john's use of the present tense to mean continues, uninterrupted believing is to make more out of the present tense than he intented. when someone becomes truly saved their salvation is completed, they have it.