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OSAS and re-baptism

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Azeotroper, Sep 8, 2002.

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  1. Yes, "I AM SAVED, SALVATION IS MINE". 

    Now the real question is can I lose what I have by living in sin, and dieing that way?

    Luke 15:1-32 We'll let Jesus answer our question.

    vs.4-7 The lost sheep, surely Jesus will watch over us, but we can go astray like the sheep in this parable, now if the man who went out looking for his sheep had got to him to late, and a beast has killed it, can it be saved?  vs. 7 say's, heaven rejoices if you repenteth, now if you die before that you are lost forever.

    Vs.8 Now with the woman never had found the lost coin could she rejoice? No!  But rejoicing come if you can be found.  vs 10 Likewise, I say unto you there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.  What is the lesson here?  We will be lost forever if we do not repent after we have gone astray.

    vs.11-32 This is about real people, the young son go out from his fathers house, to be on his own, to live a life of sin.  Now the good thing about this story is that he came to himself, and realized what he had when he was with his father.  He will always be his father's son, but he could have died out there and been lost forever, and his father would have morned over him forever.  Listen carefully to the son's words in vs.17-19, note here, if he had died could he had come to himself?
     
  2. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    That is of course, until you sin, right?  Then let's hope your sin is revealed to you before you perish or else it's lost, right?  I pray that God will reveal to you the error in this line of thought.  What a strain it must be on your faith in God's immutable righteousness to think that your very salvation, His very love, hinges on your ability to account for each and every sin.

    May I ask you how you define atonement with regard to Jesus' substitutionary death? 

    I know the thought seems foreign to you but I pray that God helps you understand that Jesus' death paid the price for your sin without you having done a thing to merit it.  Therefore, your acts of disobedience aren't a justification He would seek to condemn you.  Most people sin regularly.  I doubt God would have to look very hard to find a justifiable reason for your eternal death had Jesus not already paid the price. 

    Not one of these verses mentions or represents salvation.  Each of these sections you mention deal with the God given process of agreeing with the Word, confession, and turning away from that disobedience and realigning yourself in obedience, repentance.

    As to the "lost son," the son did not cease being the son.  Again, this is about one of the most wonderful of gifts from the Father, that of repentance.  The magnitude of God's grace that allows us to deal with life in faith and agree that His righteousness is the standard by which all things are judged is something we should never belittle as merely a weapon that God uses to cast us away from Himself.  We should embrace it as salvation in it's purest form.  It is a true sign of God's Love and favor.

    God bless.
     
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  4. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Just a little theological FYI for you: When the Bible speaks of the "heart" it does not mean your physical heart.  It means your "seat of reason."  Paul does stress the activity of the individual in conversion ("present yourselves," v. 16; "obeyed," v. 17), however, he gratefully traces all right spiritual responses to the grace of God.  While the individual is active in conversion, it is in a non-contributory and non-meritorious way, so that neither divine grace nor divine sovereignty is compromised.  Look at the first words in your reference, "But God be thanked..."  Additionally, it is important to note that a more accurate interpretation of "servants of sin" would be "slaves of sin."

    It's so strange to me that when people do something wrong they will so readily attribute it to "the tempting of the devil" but when they do something right they will do just about anything to justify not attributing it to God.  Maybe strange isn't the word.  Sad.  Yeah.  That's more accurate.

    So if I'm following you correctly, you heard it, your heart was "pricked," you accepted, you obeyed, so you are saved.  Hmmm...all God did was offer it?  You seem a wee bit off on who you should be glorifying.  Who saved you, and why?  So God saved you because of something you did?  Here, take a look at this:

    Ephesians 2:8,9
    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,<SUP> </SUP>not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    So what does your response mean?&nbsp; You heard it enough times?&nbsp; By the way, I guess you just missed it but I asked, "Just out of curiosity, how is it that you're so sure that God was not the One that put that new belief in you that caused you to believe.&nbsp; Do you actually think you spawned a righteous belief in God from an unrighteous, fallen heart?"

    You sure do enjoy crediting your salvation to your ability to "obey the Gospel."&nbsp; Just so I know, what do you make of this description of the fallen man:

    Romans 3:10-18
    As it is written:&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who seeks after God.&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The poison of asps is under their lips";&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

    Was this ever your disposition towards God, or does this describe everyone but you in their fallen state?

    &nbsp;
    A choice to do what?&nbsp; Be obedient, or be saved?&nbsp; I don't think I'll be surprised by your answer here.&nbsp; Anyway, He's telling Christians to be obedient to the Word and that it isn't as the false prophets of v. 15 paint it.&nbsp; The Christian life is difficult, and oftentimes filled with trouble and temptation.

    Uhhh...both.

    Those who reject&nbsp;it.&nbsp; I've never said anything contrary to this.&nbsp;

    Because bro, your "ability" to make decision is influenced by so many things, the greatest of these being our very nature and spiritual disposition, that to say you made a free will choice to "accept God" is&nbsp;just&nbsp;based on ignorance of God's sovereign authority over you.&nbsp; Just for a second, think of the picture of&nbsp;God, sitting in&nbsp;Heaven, hoping, hoping, hoping that you "come to Christ,"&nbsp;as you say.&nbsp; You say He desires your salvation but leaves it totally up to you.&nbsp; First off, God is omniscient, right?&nbsp; Why would He hope, if He already knew?&nbsp; Do you think you're going to throw Him for a loop?&nbsp; It's not like God's going to&nbsp;say, "Oh man!&nbsp; I thought you were going to reject me but you surprised me by accepting me."&nbsp; Secondly, if His desire (Will) is subject to your decision (will) that defeats the entire&nbsp;concept of Him&nbsp;being sovereign.&nbsp; Most importantly, you were enslaved, in bondage, to your fallen nature.&nbsp; You knew no righteousness, nor did you desire it (see above reference to Rom 3:10-18).&nbsp; How, in the midsts of that were you supposed to have seen the error of your ways and repented of it and decided to make the righteous decision to accept Christ as your Lord?

    The Gospel?&nbsp; Do you mean the Bible?&nbsp; God's Law was established long before man was created.&nbsp; If it had not been, Adam could not have transgressed a Law that didn't exist.

    So when was this "gospel" supposed to have come into existance? :scratch:

    This gives you the credit and glorifies you.&nbsp; I say we cannot obey the Gospel with this new nature, which God gives us.&nbsp; I give all credit to God&nbsp;for my redemption, to include&nbsp;acknowledging that it is solely His grace that keeps&nbsp;me from sin.&nbsp; I know all too well&nbsp;what happens when He holds back that grace.&nbsp; I sin.

    But I don't disagree with you on this.&nbsp; I'm just telling you, until God changes a person's nature, the choice they will ALWAYS make is to live in their fallen sinfulness.

    God bless.
     
  5. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Are you SURE ABOUT THAT?? Doesn't the Church of Christ teach that "no one can say that they are saved", "only God knows who is saved", "it is blasphemy to say you are saved, because THAT IS GOD'S DECISION"


    Please correct me if I am wrong, TBIR.
     
  6.  
  7. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Every single thing that God created obeys His&nbsp;Will.&nbsp; Not all obey His Word.&nbsp; It was not, however, His Will that all obey His Word, else all would.&nbsp; See,&nbsp;one difference between you and I is that I know God's Will is done in every, single situation.&nbsp; He works all things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.&nbsp; It's just that you put so much emphasis on&nbsp;what you believe to be His purpose that you give&nbsp;your beliefs as much credence as His Word.

    I don't lose sight of your opinion of the Gospel that God gave through Jesus Christ.&nbsp; I just never believed it was the truth.&nbsp; There's a difference.

    I haven't said that one time.

    I have not disputed this one time, except to say that free is not a good discriptor because, though man was not bound by a sinful nature, his choices were still subject to God's Law and therefore not free.

    I have not disputed this either.&nbsp; Try to concentrate on the things we disagree on.

    Not sure what v. 11 has to do with your point.&nbsp; Which Bible version says God offered anything?&nbsp; I don't see that, or anything like it, in any version I've read.&nbsp; Please share that verse with me.

    I was with you right up until here (except I don't use that terminology, but I get what you mean).&nbsp; Are you honestly saying that the thing that "pricked your mind" was your decision to accept?

    Not according to you:

    LOL! LOL!&nbsp; Oh my gosh!&nbsp; ROTFLOL! Ha! Ha! LOL! OOOh...*wiping my eyes*...thanks.&nbsp; I needed that.&nbsp; You, telling me to quote in context.&nbsp; *uh oh.&nbsp; Here I go again.*&nbsp; LOL!&nbsp; ROTFLOL!!

    Uhhh...here's a neat little link for you: Dictionary

    Manifested: : to make evident or certain by showing or displaying

    It's not just making something known TBIR.&nbsp; It's making it known by making it happen.&nbsp; When you manifest something, you make it a reality.

    According to you, you weren't "trapped" in your sin.&nbsp; All you had to do was "accept."

    Didn't He also say, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me"&nbsp;(John 10:27)?&nbsp; If that knock could be heard by anyone&nbsp;why&nbsp;does He differentiate between everyone and those who are His sheep,&nbsp;those who can hear His voice?

    You do?&nbsp; "We are saved by obeying the gospel."&nbsp; Your words bro, not mine.

    So you're dead and God brings you back to life, right?&nbsp; I agree.&nbsp; So why did He do this for you?&nbsp; Oh that's right, because "you obeyed" when you were dead in your transgressions, right?&nbsp; Yeah.&nbsp; You give God the credit.&nbsp; For what I'm not sure.&nbsp; Maybe the "offer" of salvation?

    God bless.
     
  8. Reformationist, I'll get to your post on Saturday, it's been great talking to you, have a safe weekend.
     
  9. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    You too brother! :) :wave:

    I'll be moving this weekend so if I don't get back to you please forgive me.&nbsp; It certainly isn't intentional.

    God bless and have a safe weekend yourself. :)
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    oh, he is from the church of christ? That explains a little... :)
     
  11. The Squalid Wanderer

    The Squalid Wanderer The Fool

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    I believe in one baptism for the remission of sins. Therefore there would not be a second baptism if one fell away and then returned. This is because baptism is being united with Christ's death and resurrection. To be baptised twice would be akin to putting Christ to death a second time.

    Can you apostasize and come back again. I don't think so, at least Hebrews 6:4,5 doesn't incline me to think so.
     
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    The Church of Christ does not teach such a thing. We would however teach what the bible says about the matter. For example

    1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may <I>continue to </I>believe in the name of the Son of God.

    You can know if you are saved and be confindent in your salvation. For instance we can know from the bible that When we belived that Jesus is the son of God and repented and confessed him as our Lord and were Baptized into his death that are sins were washed away just likes Pauls in Acts 22:16. We cruicfied our old self with Christ and became a new creature. Rom 6. We then know that are future sins are continually cleansed by the blood of Jesus if we walk in the light.

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    We also can have assurance that we are saved if we are faithful until death as stated in.

    Revelation 2:10 "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw <I>some </I>of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Now I can't really gurantee you what every COC you might go to might teach as some unfortunatly have strayed from what the bible clearly teaches. You have to understand one thing about the COC we are atonimous just as the churchs of Christ were in the 1st Century. The bible teaches that Jesus is the head of the church (Eph 5:23) and never teaches the idea of a church haveing headquarters or haveing a board of directors over serveral churchs. Instead the bible teaches that elders were appointed for each church and they were to take care of their particular flock. When we say Church of Christ we are just simply making reference to who the church belongs to and this name or idea is expressed in Rom 16:16. We are just members of Christ Body. Remember their is only 1 body/church Eph 4:4 and the way you get into that body is through baptism 1Cor 12:13. When this happens God adds you to the body. Acts 2:47

    This was just a readers digest version. If you would like to know more just let me know.

    God Bless,

    Cougan
     
  13. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    The COC I was raised in taught that to say you are saved is putting yourself in the positon of God, that only God decides who is saved, and we are not to put ourself on the same level of authority as God, and that we must hope and pray that God will have mercy on us and hope and pray that God will choose to forgive us and not send us to Hell. "We cannot KNOW FOR SURE if we are saved, only God knows that" is exactly what the COC teaches.

    I don't know what COC you attend, but I've never heard this from a COC. The COC teaches that Baptism washes away all of your sins AT THE POINT OF BAPTISM. After that, you are on your own, completely at the mercy of a God who demands a perfect and sinless life, doomed to go to Hell if you commit(insert long list of sins here). Now MAYBE, if you pray really hard for a long long time, and beg and plead for mercy, God MIGHT forgive you of sins you commit after Baptism. But we can't really know for sure if God will choose to have mercy, we can only hope and pray. The COC also teaches a lot of "MUST DO'S". You must do this, you must do that, a whole long list of things, that if you don't follow, you will go to Hell, no doubt about it. It is all dependent upon my righteousness, and NOT upon the righteousness of Christ. The COC dilutes the POWER of the Cross, by limiting the ability of Jesus to save us. Our salvation is dependent upon our works and obedience, according to the COC.

    I can agree wholeheartedly with that.

    And what if someone belongs to a church OTHER THAN the COC?? Can they be saved?? Will I go to Hell if I am Catholic? Will I go to Hell if I am baptist? Methodist?


    Yeah, I used to believe that too. Until one day the Holy Spirit taught me that JESUS SAVES, period. Anybody can get baptized, it certainly doesn't save you. Believing on the shed blood of Jesus, accepting the work that Jesus did on the Cross is how you receive your salvation. Trusting in Jesus is the only way that anyone receives eternal life. And when you get to Heaven, what will you profess? Your obedience? Your righteousness? Your baptism? I tell you in love, brother, prepare your heart to confess only the Blood of the Lamb.

    Yes, I was taught in the COC that Jesus is the Son of God. I was never taught to believe in the "trinity", that is, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One. Do you believe in the Trinity? Does the COC believe that God is One in 3 persons?

    If I am a member of a church that uses musical instruments during the worship service, will I go to Hell for worshiping God with musical instruments?

    And what if I fail to take the Lord's Supper for a few weeks, will I go to Hell for that?

    And what if I miss church for three Sundays in a row and die without asking for forgivness, will I go to Hell for that?

    What if I have my infant baptized, will I go to Hell for that?

    What if I get divorced and remarry, will I go to Hell for that?
     
  14. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Cougan,

    Your sig pretty much says it all: "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." This is the teaching of the COC in a nutshell, that we are to fear God. Go to any COC service anywhere, anytime, and you won't walk out without being taught about fearing God and fearing Hell. It is the doctrine of FEAR.
     
  15. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Are you sure that is what they taught? That you can not&nbsp;know that you are saved? If they did teach that they were not teaching what the bible says. In my previous post I pointed out some verses that teach that we can know that we are saved and that if we continue to strive to be faithful by walking&nbsp; in the light&nbsp;our future sins are continuely cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Maybe the COC you went to taught such a thing, but don't assume that the rest of them do. I personally don't know of any of them that would teach such a thing. The COC always strives to speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent.

    In regards to baptism can you honestly say that it is not part of salvation? I really just don't understand how someone could miss this clear concept in the bible. I can understand how people could get confused on other topics in the bible, but on the topic of Baptism, I just don't get it. Let me answer the following questions that might be on your mind.

    Am I saved by Grace? Yes
    Am I saved by Faith? Yes
    Am I saved by repentence? Yes
    Am I saved by confessing Jesus as Lord? Yes
    Am I saved by baptism? Yes
    Am I saved by any of the previous questions ALONE? NO.

    You see it takes all of these things working together to put&nbsp;you into a saved condition. All logic is thrown out the window in order to say that baptism does not save&nbsp;you. We use good common sense in the real world to figure things out but it seems a new set of rules is used when looking at the bible. Let me give a non-bibical example. Lets say you have a safe and it has 3 different numbers to get into the safe. I could state the 3 to the right will get you into the safe because it is indeed one of the numbers that you will need, but it will not get you into the safe by itself. Even if I give you the 2nd number which is required to get you into the safe you still can get in until you have ALL the numbers. Once I give you all the numbers you will be able to get into the safe. This is logical and just 1 example of how we use logic in the real world. Do you disagree with this logic?

    Now watch this.

    Notice James 1:21 The word saves you Eph 2:4-5 Grace saves you Rom 8:24 Hope saves you John 3:16 faith saves you.&nbsp;Rom 10:9-10 Faith and confessing saves you. Repentence and Baptism saves you Acts 2:38. Baptism saves you 1Pet 3:21. Now logic would say that it would take all these things working together to save you. If not, why not?

    The bible is very clear that it is at the point of Baptism that your sins are washed away.&nbsp;Acts 2:38 repent and&nbsp;let every one of you&nbsp;be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. And is futher confirmed by Acts 22:16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' If you remember here Paul already belived in Jesus and was very sorry for what he had done and had been fasting and praying for 3 days. This verse makes it crystal clear that his sins were not removed until he was baptized. You can also see this idea in Col 2:12-13 and Rom&nbsp; 6:3-8.

    Can you show me anyway other than baptism that puts you into Chirst death? Gal 3:27 Rom 6:4 1Cor 12:13

    Let me give one more thing for you to think on. You seem to think that baptism is a work of man. The bible teaches otherwise in fact it clearly shows that it is our faith in the working of God that at baptism our sins are being forgiven, we are cruicfied with the Jesus being united with him in death, being raised a new creature and being added to the body which is the church.

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with <I>him </I>through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    &nbsp;Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also <I>in the likeness </I>of <I>his </I>resurrection:

    6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with <I>him</I>, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    There are many other very strong points I could make to show the necessity of Baptism but will leave it at this for now to keep this post as short as possible.

    Lets talk about works for a second. The bible in no way says that you can somehow earn your salvation. There are&nbsp;2 different kinds of work. There are works of Merrit and works of obeidence. Yes we are to have works of obedience but not works of Merrit. Notice this Parable that goes along with this idea in Luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'?8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'? 9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "

    Grace is a wonderful thing without it there would be no forgiveness of sins. 1 John 5:13 tells us that we can know that we have eternal life by the written word. 1 John 1:7 tells us that if we walk in the light that Jesus will continually cleanse our sins. So we can know that we are saved. If we start drifting from the lord as warned Heb 2:1-3; 1Cor 10:12 we can fall from grace Gal 5:4. As Christian we are to continue to grow in grace 2Peter 3:18 and we are to add to our faith so we can make our election sure 2Peter 1:5-10. Think about what Paul states in 2 Tim 1: 5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
    You see Paul here is telling us that there are rules that we are to go by if we want to get our crown of life. Being a Christian isn’t easy as stated in Mat 7: 13 " Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.&nbsp; This is why you see Jesus go on to say 21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    Jesus tells us if we love him we will obey his commandments John 14:15. 1Thess 1:7-9 tells us the consequences of not obeying the gospel.


    I also want to deal with whether or not we are under law. We are not under the Mosaic Law but we are under a new law, the law of Christ. I will list the verses that show that we are not under the Mosaic law. Col 2:14-17; Gal 3:13; Rom 7:1-6; Rom 8:1-2 ; Heb 8:13; 2Cor 3:6-7. You will have to look all these up for yourself. What about the new covenant? If it isn’t a law, then there is no way for us to sin and we would end up just like the children of Israel in Judges 17:6. If we are to obey Jesus commands, what is it that we are obeying if it is not law? While you think about that look up the following verses that show that we are indeed under Christ law. James 1:25; 2:12; Rom 3:27; Gal 6:2; 1Cor 9:21 For obeying See also John 14:15,21,23; 15:10,14; 1 John 2:3-6; 5:1-3; Luke 6:46; Heb. 5:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22; Rom. 6:17-18; Luke 8:19-21; 11:27-28

    &nbsp;
     
  16. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Lets talk about sin for just a min. The developement of sin is outlined in James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

    14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

    15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

    So we are only tempted if there is both desire and opertunity. Being tempted is not sin but when we act or yield ourself to the temptation then it becomes sin which brings forth spirital death that is spirtial seperation from God. We can overcome sin and any time by repenting, praying, and cofessing to God. 1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    We all sin from time to time we are not perfect. Now there are sins of commission that is sin we commit by action on our part. There are also sins of ommission that is sin which comes from not doing that which is right as stated in James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. But, again these can be overcome by repenting praying and confessing them to God. It is very important for us to ask forgiveness for our sins everyday. Now what about those sins we commit and we just did'nt realize that we sined even though it was a sin. Again, I would stress that it is important for us to pray for forgiveness of sin everyday. But, this kind of sin I belive would be covered under Grace. Again, If we are walking in the light these kind of sins would be covered.(1jn 1:7) Notice that this is a conditional verse. it say IF we are WALKING. The idea of walking is continueous. If we willfully sin and we know that it is a sin and we dont repent pray and confess it to God and we die in this state the bible teaches that we experience the 2nd death mentioned in Rev 21:8. Note the following verses.

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.See Also verses 28-31

    As far as I can tell from the bible Grace will not cover unrepented or unforgiven sin that we do willfully. We are also do be doer of the word. (James 1:23-25)

    Do you realize what you say when you say that all we need to do is let Jesus saves us with his blood. This sounds like your saying that their is absoultly no action on mans part to be saved. Since Christ died for the whole world everyone is saved regardless of what we do. Do you really belive this?

    Well so much for a short post.

    This depends. Remember how I have already said that their is only 1 body which is the church which is Christ Body. Eph 4:4 col 1:24 Then remeber how I said the 1 Cort 12:13 tells how we get into that body through baptism. Now eph 5:22 tells us that Jesus is the savior of the body so you see we must be in the body in order to be saved. We must be baptized into the Body/Christ in order for our sins to be removed and for God to add us to that body. Act 2:47. So I only speak where the bible speaks. No matter what the name is on the outside of your building if you were not baptized into Christ body for the remission of sins you are not saved. If I were going to put a name on the building where the saints gather I would want to put a name on it mentioned in the bible or have a name on it that would say whos church it is. For example Church of God, Church of Jesus, Church of Christ, or even just simply church. I would'nt want to put the name of some other man or doctrine on it would you?
    [/QUOTE]


    I have already covered this. I will mention one thing the Holy Spirit taught me this. 1Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,



    I'm not really for sure what the point of this is but yes we teach the triune nature of God. That is that The Father, son, and Hs are all part of the divine nature that makes up the GodHead. They are equal but they have differing roles and are distinct from one another but yet they are 1.

    Your asking me to make a judgement that is not mine to make. All I can say is that the bible under the new convenant does not authorize the use of them in worship. There is not one example of insturments being used under the new covenant. There are however many examples of singing being done and we are all told to sing and make melody in our heart. Eph 5:19 Col 3:16. A musical insturment can not teach or admonish or praise God. If we take Eph 5:19 to be talking about the use of insturments then that would mean that everyone must sing and play an insturment. You can take a chance if you want to and use the instrument in your worship. But, I will not take such a chance as adding something to the word of God.


    And what if I fail to take the Lord's Supper for a few weeks, will I go to Hell for that?


    Again not my judgement call. I do know that I would not want to take of the LS if I did not do it in worthy mannner. 1Cort 11:27-29. So there might be times when a person should'nt partake of it if there heart is'nt in the right place. But, for the rest of the times I will partake of it every single 1st day of the week just like the example we have in the bible of the 1st century christians doing. I know that when I do it that it proclaims Jesus death until he comes. 1cor 11:26. Why would I want to neglect such a wonderful thing that Jesus gave us to do as memoral to him?


    And what if I miss church for three Sundays in a row and die without asking for forgivness, will I go to Hell for that?


    I dont mean to sound like a broken record but again its not for me to make such a judgement. There are some things that can keep you from assemblying with the saints. You could be sick or taking care of someone that is sick. Perhaps you job required you to have to work that day. There are valid reason for not attending. It is important to keep in mind that if your elders have set a day for you to assemble and you just willfully skip it without a valid reason it is a sin. Notice you can see this concept in the following 2 verses. heb 10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

    So we need to do our best to attend when the saints assemble.


    What if I have my infant baptized, will I go to Hell for that?
    No you will not go to hell for baptizing your infant. Of course baptizing your infant is just going to make him wet. It will not do anything for him or her. Why would you baptize an infant anyways?
    What if I get divorced and remarry, will I go to Hell for that?

    This one is a hard one to answer for me because it can become complicated and I have always said that I am glad that I am not in this postion because it would be diffcult to deal with. I want to answer all your questions to the best of my abilty. I want to keep this brief. The answer to your question depends on wheather or not you were scriputually divorced or not. There are only 2 reason for a scriptual divorce that is adultry or death. If you fall into this catagory then you can remarry. If you divorce someone for anyother reason the bible would teach that you can not remarry. If you do you will be committing adultry. Remeber when you repent from something you turn away from it and dont do it anymore. So if you did remarry under the wrong conditions you would be living in an adultress relationship and the only way to truly repent would be to get out of that relationship.



    Well, I opened up my heart to you and shared with you what I belive the bible clearly expresses. But dont take my word for it search it out for yourself and see if it is so.

    Peace,

    Cougan

    [/B]
     
  17. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +608
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks, Cougan, I don't have time to respond to the things you have said. I will try to get back with you tomorrow or Monday.

    I will say this, I don't think you are being completely honest with me, or honest with yourself. The COC plainly teaches that everyone is going to Hell, unless they are a member of the COC.

    You know, you can repent and get baptized on a Sunday morning. But according to you, that salvation lost it's power as soon as you came up out of the water. Because now your salvation is completely dependent upon obedience. Your belief in Jesus won't save you, your baptism won't save you, only your own righteousness will save you. So even your baptism never saved you, except for only a fleeting a moment in time.

    And my question on the "Godhead" was not a trick question, I was taught by the COC that Jesus was the Son of God, and not equal to God the Father.

    I will get back to you later on the other things. I am sorry you live in so much fear, Cougan, I truely am. I used to live in the same fear. Praise God, Jesus set me free, thru His love which casts out fear.
     
  18. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +608
    Christian
    Married
    Auntie asked:

    "What if I get divorced and remarry, will I go to Hell for that?"

    Cougan answered:

    "This one is a hard one to answer for me because it can become complicated and I have always said that I am glad that I am not in this postion because it would be diffcult to deal with. I want to answer all your questions to the best of my abilty. I want to keep this brief. The answer to your question depends on wheather or not you were scriputually divorced or not. There are only 2 reason for a scriptual divorce that is adultry or death. If you fall into this catagory then you can remarry. If you divorce someone for anyother reason the bible would teach that you can not remarry. If you do you will be committing adultry. Remeber when you repent from something you turn away from it and dont do it anymore. So if you did remarry under the wrong conditions you would be living in an adultress relationship and the only way to truly repent would be to get out of that relationship."


    Cougan, the reason it is hard for you to answer this question is because you cannot comprehend the enormous power of the Cross. Jesus did not suffer and die just so I could save myself thru my own self-righteous living. We are to live in righteousness, but God forbid that I should ever claim salvation thru righteous living.

    My first marriage lasted for two years, and the divorce did not fit the biblical reasons you have stated. My second marriage is a strong Christian marriage that has lasted for 28 (twenty-eight) years. According to your beliefs, I must abandon my marriage so that I might save myself from Hell. Is this the power of the Cross? That I must tell my husband that I am leaving him, so that I can save my hide from Hell? God forbid.

    .....but wait, there is an added demension, a loophole that might allow me to be saved *again*. While in the 9th year of my second marriage, my first husband was murdered. Can I assume that I was saved again when a murderer brutally killed my first husband? Did the unrighteous acts of a murderer bring me back into salvation?
     
  19. Azeotroper

    Azeotroper New Member

    34
    +0
    Protestant
    Cougan,
    Since you are CoC, getting back to my original question....

    The CoC generally teaches that one may be snatched away from Christ and lose his/her salvation by not confessing or repenting of sin, must one be baptised again to regain salvation? "The Bible is Right" already said no to this question, but I am not sure why since Baptism is "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38.
     
  20. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I am pretty sure&nbsp; I answered this question already. But I agree with The Bible is Right The answer is no. The bible only teaches us to be baptized once. It never teaches that you have to be re-baptized every time you sin. Go back an read my post again and you will see that baptism alone does not save you or wash away your sins. It takes faith, repentence, confessing Jesus as Lord and baptism working together for this to happen. You seem to misunderstand that baptism is something done because of your obedience of faith. Repentance and confessing Jesus as lord fall under this catorgory as well. They are acts of obedience. When you submit yourself to baptism and you have faith in the operation of God that you are being united with Jesus having your sins removed and that you are being raised a new creature one that is now IN CHRIST you know that you have died with Christ. You are now a servent of righteousness. Once you get into Christ and have died with him there is no need for you to die again. You just have to repent, pray and confess your sin to God and Jesus blood will cleanse you of your sins. Again, read my previous post I talk about sin and how we overcome it. Now let me show you some verses that show that we must die with Christ in Baptism to be freed from sin.

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

    2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

    When did we did to sin it was in baptism.

    3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

    4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be <I>in the likeness </I>of <I>His </I>resurrection,

    Notice the conditional statement here IF we have been united together in the likeness of his death THEN we will be in the likeness of his resurrection.

    6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with <I>Him, </I>that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

    7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

    When did we die? It was when we were baptized.

    8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

    Again, notice this conditional statement IF we died with Christ ( in baptism) THEN we shall also live with him.

    You see once we get into Christ (Gal 3:27) even if we fall away God never stops&nbsp;loveing us. Nothing can sperate us from the love of God. God loves even the worse sinner and if he or she decides to turn back to God by repenting, praying, and confessing their sins to him they will once again be made whole. God never fails on his promises. If you do not obey him you will perish. God is a very just God and a loveing God. Just think about Uz and how he just wanted to steady the ark but God commanded that only the priest could touch it and him not being a priest died instantly. Did God love Uz? Yes he did, but God keeps his promises and will pass judgement on those who do not obey.

    Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the <I>life </I>which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

    When were crucified with Christ? At baptism.

    col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.4 When Christ <I>who is </I>our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

    When did you die? At Baptism.

    2tim 2:11 <I>This is </I>a faithful saying: For if we died with <I>Him, </I>We shall also live with <I>Him.</I>

    Again, IF we DIED with him (in baptism) THEN we shall also live with him.

    1peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness -- by whose stripes you were healed.

    Yes I am a broken record. When did we die to our sins? At baptism.

    I hope this has been helpful and has answered your question. If not let me know and I will try again.

    &nbsp;
     
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