It seems to me, Bible is Right, that you want Mark 16:16 to read as follows...........but he that BAPTISETH NOT shall be condemned. Unfortunately for the CoC position, it does not.
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OSAS and re-baptism
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Bible Is Right wrote:
[QUOTEWhen we in the church of Christ say "lose one's salvation" we are saying that some one who has become a christian and lives as a christian for a while, then decide to go astray or just go's astray and dies in that state, that person has lost his/her salvation. Heb.6:4-6.
But a person who go's astray and realizes that they are wrong by hearing from the word of the Lord or something happens to them and they come back to the Lord because of it, they must repent of their sins and remain faithful from that time on. They do not have to be baptized again, they must repent and live faithful! James 5:20 [/B][/QUOTE]
I am just now getting back to reading your responses from this weekend, and apologize for that. If I am wrong, please correct me, but I gather from reading the above quote, it would seem that you believe that a Christian who goes astray will go to Hell if they die "being astray". Further it seems that you believe that a person with any unrepented and unconfessed sin who is still alive is headed straight to Hell, making him condemned already.(Unless they confess, repent and remain faithful) Is my summation correct?
What I am really getting at is this: Taken to it's logical conclusion, your theology teaches that any person who sins has in effect fallen out of the grace of God until which point, he realizes it and then confesses and repents. To me this makes Christ sort of a "what have you done for me lately" Savior instead of an "I died on the cross in your place that you might live an abundant life" Savior. Though you might think so, I do not believe that you should sin that grace abound.
Anyway, back to my original question, that is if somebody has lost his position of salvation, why do they not have to be baptised again "for the remission of sins" based on Acts 2:38 and other standard CoC proof verses?
[QUOTEWhen we in the church of Christ say "lose one's salvation" we are saying that some one who has become a christian and lives as a christian for a while, then decide to go astray or just go's astray and dies in that state, that person has lost his/her salvation. Heb.6:4-6.
But a person who go's astray and realizes that they are wrong by hearing from the word of the Lord or something happens to them and they come back to the Lord because of it, they must repent of their sins and remain faithful from that time on. They do not have to be baptized again, they must repent and live faithful! James 5:20 [/B][/QUOTE]
I am just now getting back to reading your responses from this weekend, and apologize for that. If I am wrong, please correct me, but I gather from reading the above quote, it would seem that you believe that a Christian who goes astray will go to Hell if they die "being astray". Further it seems that you believe that a person with any unrepented and unconfessed sin who is still alive is headed straight to Hell, making him condemned already.(Unless they confess, repent and remain faithful) Is my summation correct?
What I am really getting at is this: Taken to it's logical conclusion, your theology teaches that any person who sins has in effect fallen out of the grace of God until which point, he realizes it and then confesses and repents. To me this makes Christ sort of a "what have you done for me lately" Savior instead of an "I died on the cross in your place that you might live an abundant life" Savior. Though you might think so, I do not believe that you should sin that grace abound.
Anyway, back to my original question, that is if somebody has lost his position of salvation, why do they not have to be baptised again "for the remission of sins" based on Acts 2:38 and other standard CoC proof verses?
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Well if water baptism is req for salvation, and if a person can lose his salvation then gain it back, then of cse, to be consistent, he'd have to be water baptised again. I mean, if the first part - a powerful miracle - has to be re-done, then obviously, the 2nd part, which is a lesser, shld all the more be re-done.
BTW: I'm 100% OSAS.
BTW: I'm 100% OSAS.
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Mark16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed.
I said that Jesus was speaking here of being baptised of the Holy Spirit, I do not see how I changed anything.
Also upon rereading my post I se where the confusion may be, I was not meaning to say that was the verse.
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I go to a Church of Christ in Indiana, and we don't believe that a person can lose their salvation, nor that baptism redeems one from sin. We believe that a person who is truly saved stays with the faith, that salvation doesn't come from us, but from God, and that baptism is a sign of obedience to God, and thus is important, but not required for salvation. A person who refuses baptism would be frowned upon, because it is a sign of not wanting to submit to God. An unbaptized person would not be expected to take communion.
But I don't know anything about this apparent cult that you are talking about.
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1. To the first question you ask, the answer is yes, Jesus said in Luke 13:3,5 Except you repent, you shall like wise perish.
b. Rev. 2:5 These people were in the Lord's church, and they were told to repent, or "else I will come unto you quickly, and will remove your candlestick out of his place, except you repent.
2. John 15:2 "Every branch IN ME that beareth NOT fruit he taketh away;" vs.6 If a man abide NOT IN ME, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. This is plan bible teaching from the master teacher himself. I'm not making this up just to have something to talk about. The bible is real to me, and I take it very seriously. Jesus will keep the faithful safe from harm, so when he saids I will never leave you nor forsake you, He's is saying while you are doing the Father's will. Matt.16:24 "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
If we stop following Jesus, and go our own way, he did not leave us, we left him! So we must come back to him, and continue to follow him unto death. Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
3. If you were sure about obeying the gospel, and you fully understood the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus Christ, and obeyed from the heart, Roman 6:17; 10:9-10, you don't have to be baptized again, but you must repent of all your sins. But if you were not sure, then you should make your calling and election sure; 2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, bretheren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall; vs.5-9 will help us understand vs.10.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
If your repentence is required for the remission of your sins, or at least the penalty thereof, what, with regard to your sins, was it that you believe Jesus' death actually accomplished? Do you believe HIS death actually paid for anything, or do you just believe it enabled your sins to be forgiven upon your repentence?
Thanks,
God bless.
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Given the fact that we are commanded to repent,Acts 17:30 in all cases, I agree with your last statement.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
So His death, by itself, actually paid the price, or penalty, for the sins of no one, is what you're saying?
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Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. John 3:16 But he is the door that leads to eternal life, John 10:7,9 and we must go through that door in order to have life.
Now are you saying that we have no responsibility for our sins? Is there anything to be done on our part?
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
So the death of God incarnate accomplished nothing specifically for you, right? It didn't save you. It just became possible for you to be saved, right? Jesus just became, what, a door?
No. Of course we have a responsibility for them. That responsibility, however, is not to pay for them. Paying for your sins is not something you are able to accomplish. The Bible never says that Christ's propitiatory death and your admission of guilt are what paid the price for your sins. It says this:
1 John 4:9,10
In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.<SUP> </SUP>In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
There are a couple of really important things to note here. First, in verse 10, it says, "In this is love." That distinction is referring to the actions of God noted in the previous verse. John then goes on to even further explain the process. He says, "not that we loved God." God sent His Son. His Son died. His Son's death was a propitiation to God's wrath against mankind. Do you know what a propitiation is? It is something that makes atonement. It is a worthy substitutionary sacrifice. Jesus death wouldn't have accomplished that which God intended, that being the salvation of God's elect, if God needed your "acceptance" of Jesus' death prior to it being made manifest in your eternal disposition. It never would have happened. Why? Because prior to your regeneration you were fallen and your very nature was at enmity with God. You were His enemy and your nature wanted to keep it that way. Are you saying that in the midst of your hate and hostility towards God you "turned to Him" and "accepted His Will?" According to you, Jesus' death "opened a door" or "became a door" or whatever it is you're saying that needed to be done on your part for God's actions, His very Will, to be effective in your life. Your saying either God doesn't care about you specifically, because, as you said, all Jesus' death did was "open a door" for you, or, He didn't have the power to ensure that you came to be saved. It all hinged on your decision to "accept Christ." Who is being glorified in your position? You.
What I'm saying is that God loved you so much that while you were yet His enemy (Eph 2:4,5), rescued you from the pit of fallenness you were trapped in. In your position, God just rewarded your actions with salvation. It wasn't Jesus that saved you. It was you.
For salvation, no. For sinning, yes. Repent. This is not to achieve, or even matain or regain, your salvation. It's to show God that YOU RECOGNIZE your dependence on Him for all things. It's about you being conformed to the image of righteousness. It's not about you earning anything.
God bless.
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
I see. Thanks for addressing my post in such a thorough way.
(that's a joke by the way)God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Oh, sorry. Your formatting got messed up so I thought the last line was the only one you typed.
I'm such a bonehead sometimes.
God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
Everything, huh? Did it save you?
Uhhh...yeah. What does that have to do with this?
What do you think it means? Do you think it means "maybe" as in the possibility? Don't you think God knew who would be saved? Or do you believe God thought there was a possibility that mankind "might not" be saved?
Yup. Just as I said. You don't credit Jesus with your salvation. You credit Him with salvation. You attribute your salvation to you, to your decision.
Okay. And does He do this for everyone or just those that believe?
Seems contradictory. "WE don't earn anything WE SUBMIT to God's will."
Did you submit because you chose to submit when you were "dead in your trespasses" or did you submit because God saved you whilst you were yet rebelling against Him, and by doing so you desired to submit.
Thanks,
God bless
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Originally posted by Reformationist
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Everything, huh? Did it save you?
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We are saved by obeying the gospel. 1 Cor. 15:1-4
Uhhh...yeah. What does that have to do with this?
[/color]
What do you think it means? Do you think it means "maybe" as in the possibility? Don't you think God knew who would be saved? Or do you believe God thought there was a possibility that mankind "might not" be saved?
[/color]
All men will not obey the gospel 2 Thess. 1:7-9.
Yup. Just as I said. You don't credit Jesus with your salvation. You credit Him with salvation. You attribute your salvation to you, to your decision.
I just follow the simple instructions of Jesus in Mark 16:16 and Jesus cannot lie, so by following what he said for us to do I am saved.
Okay. And does He do this for everyone or just those that believe?
He died for all men, but all will not except that fact to be saved, they will not obey the gospel. 2 Thess. 1:7-9.
Seems contradictory. "WE don't earn anything WE SUBMIT to God's will."
There is no contradiction here, again just follow the instructions of what Jesus said for us to do to be saved in Mark 16:16.
Did you submit because you chose to submit when you were "dead in your trespasses" or did you submit because God saved you whilst you were yet rebelling against Him, and by doing so you desired to submit.
We are free moral agents, and we have the God give right to choose, to follow God or not. Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, "Choose" you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Thanks,
God bless
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Reformationist
Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam
You're saved because you obey the Gospel? Let me guess, you don't consider your acts of obedience as works do you? You're saved because you obey. Yup. That's what I'd call works, not grace. Just so you know, 1 Cor 15:1-4 doesn't say "we are saved by obeying the Gospel." It says you are saved "by the Gospel." The Gospel is the redeeming work of atonement BY JESUS CHRIST, not you.
I think you probably meant "not all men will obey the Gospel." So, like I asked, who do you give credit to for your salvation? Is it God through the redeeming work of Christ, or is it your decision? And if you say "both" please explain what it was that was done specifically for you BEFORE you made your decision. Was there some kind of spiritual change that took place in you that was solely the result of Christ's death?
So let me get this straight. One day before God did anything to you, while you were still fallen, you just said, "Hmmm...I think I believe in God. What I've been told makes sense all of a sudden. I think I should be baptized so I can be one of His children." Or something to that effect? Just out of curiosity, how is it that you're so sure that God was not the One that put that new belief in you that caused you to believe. Do you actually think you spawned a righteous belief in God from an unrighteous, fallen heart?
That's not what I asked you. You said, "Eph 2:1 tells us that it was God who quicken us, that is made us alive to sit with Christ." And I asked, "And does He do this for everyone or just those that believe?" That is, does He quicken, make alive, and seat with Christ everyone, or just those that believe?
Well, the sad part is that you credit yourself with spawning the saving belief unto salvation and coming to the decision to "accept" Christ's substitutionary death as the catalyst for that event to be made manifest in your life. According to your position, the physical death of God wasn't enough to bring about your salvation, which you say is the same thing He "desires" for all mankind, yet has not the power to ensure that His own Will is done. It amazes me that you could sit there and say that God needed your permission to enact His Will in your life, as if your life isn't something that exists purely from His own hand and Will. Your god is subject to you. Sad.
So your moral decisions aren't subject to His Law? If they are, please explain how they are "free."
Yes. I agree. We have the God given right to make decisions.
Our decision to "follow God or not" is definitely one we make. However, that decision will be made in accordance to our nature.
- Fallen, unregenerate nature = no desire or inclination to serve the Lord
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Regenerated by God's grace = a new nature that desires to serve God and obey His Word
Okay TBIR, first off, HE WAS TALKING TO CHRISTIANS!!! He was talking to the descendants of Abraham that were the people of Israel regarding God's promise TO THEM of the return of the land of Canaan. This whole book is about Joshua testifying to God's faithfulness to that promise by recounting the successful entry of the Israelites into the land, the disposession of it's inhabitants, and the allocation of the territory to the twelve tribes. Joshua wasn't talking to the world. He was talking to God's chosen.
Come on man, context!
God bless
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Auntie,
Previously, The Bible is Right has said that any person who dies with unconfessed/unrepented sins will not enter heaven. As such, how could he know if he was saved or not until the instant he was physically dead? That is a sad state to be in, not being able to know.
Auntie,
Previously, The Bible is Right has said that any person who dies with unconfessed/unrepented sins will not enter heaven. As such, how could he know if he was saved or not until the instant he was physically dead? That is a sad state to be in, not being able to know.
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