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Featured Open Challenge To Flat Earthers Worldwide

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FEZZILLA, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    6. Clement of Rome (35 - 99 A.D.)

    Clement of Rome is mentioned in the Bible (Php.4:3) and was consecrated by St.Peter to lead the church in Rome. His mention in Php.4:3 was by St.Paul who obviously also placed him in high esteem. He is the first of the early church fathers after the Apostles of Christ (or the first to leave a surviving Epistle behind). His words my not be Scripture, but they weigh heavy on how Scripture is interpreted. Quotations are taken from The Ancient Christian Writers series Vol.1. His Epistle To The Corinthians was written in 97 A.D. which is only one or two years after the Apostle John penned Revelation!

    “Thus, by His transcendent might He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible understanding He ordered them: the earth He separated from the water now encircling it, and firmly grounded it on the unshakable foundation of His own will” (33:3).

    In the next quotation, Clement speaks about the rotation of the earth:

    "The heavens revolve by His arrangement and are subject to Him in peace. Day and night complete the revolution ordained by Him, and neither interferes in the least with the other" (20:1-2).

    The next statement by Clement challenges everything modern people of the 21st century think they know about what the early Christians knew. This comment is about antipodes:

    “The ocean, impassable for men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same decrees of the Master” (20:8).

    Clement is speaking about antipodes which, in his time, was defined as people who lived on the other side of the earth, or who plant their footsteps opposite to ours. St.Augustine had trouble believing Clement and others about people living on the opposite side of the world. But as it turns out Clement of Rome was correct.

    Back in the 1st century, crossing the oceans to other worlds was not by any means an easy feat and even seemingly impossible. But nevertheless, God still made the seemingly impossible very possible during the rise of Christendom when ship building would become more advanced and eventually Christians would make it over to the other side of the earth.

    I have a much more extensive write-up about Clement of Rome which includes Augustine's skepticism about antipodes recorded in his book "City of God."
    ______________________________________________________________
    7. Origen Explains Clement’s Comment:

    “Clement indeed, a disciple of the apostles, mentions those whom the Greeks call “people of the opposite earth,” and speaks of other parts of the world which none of our people can reach, nor can any of those who live there cross over to us; and these parts themselves he called “worlds,” when he says, “The ocean is impassable to men, and the worlds beyond it are governed by the same ordinances of God the Ruler” (On First Principles, Chapter III verse 6).

    Who you gonna believe: 20th century liberal scholars or 1st a century church father appointed by the Apostle Peter? Clearly the Apostles and earliest of church fathers knew what chuwg meant and how it would translate into other languages. It never translated as a flat earth to them so why would we consider the petty word definitions of 20th & 21st century liberal scholars whose only motive was to appease evolutionists?
    ___________________________________________________________________
    8. Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

    Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. We have seen how the earliest of Christian church fathers understood Scripture and now we will see how a Jewish historian understands Genesis.

    “After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

    Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere. So here in the 1st century, both Josephus and Clement of Rome, refute modern liberal assumptions. Did Josephus know how to read Hebrew? Sure he did! He not only knew how to read Hebrew but was also a highly educated historian. So all these modern arguments which fool many have no weight in light of what we read from Josephus and Clement!
    download.jpe
     
  2. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but there is a large body of theology we're discussing here and I have broken it down to as few words as possible.
     
  3. Zetetica

    Zetetica Well-Known Member

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    I’m just going to let you know that I’ve reported BOTH of your accusatory posts to moderation.

    You are acting unfriendly, attacking me personally (yes, I consider being called an anarchist and accused of great wrongs to be a personal attack.)

    I get that you don’t agree with FE but you went out of your way to outright attack them and me. Actually, the ONLY posts you’ve engaged in have been about FE, and the only thread you created is likewise.

    Perhaps give your FE crusade a rest?
     
  4. Zetetica

    Zetetica Well-Known Member

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    Assumption.
     
  5. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Are you aware that Gnosticism was ancient occult still accepted by the church of Satan today? The Apostle John indirectly made mention of them in 1 John chapters 1 & 2. He is saying that the lineage of the Antichrist and his kingdom will come from the Gnostics. But this is all I will say on the matter unless I get the permission from the mods here to identify the Antichrist power because its a real touchy issue on these forums to address.

    The apocrypha contain authentic Jewish writings between the testaments. I have several Bibles that contain apocrypha, including the 1537 Matthew's Bible.

    I agree in part from a paradigm point of view.
     
  6. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Zetetica, We can solve the issue without moderators. I'll just place you on the ignore list and be done with it.
     
  7. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Occult means secret; it was "occult" because it was not shared with just anyone - dont cast your pearls before swine and such. It was very much a part the Hebrew meditation, and codex.

    The ecumenical powers that be have split, slashed and separated the books because of their own ignorance, and because of power. The scare tactic about occultology is to confuse, confound and create animosity between the truth and the receiver of the (would be) truth.

    Every human is responsible for the trajectory of his or her soul; if you let people tell you what to believe without actually finding out some or all the details yourself, then you are being had. Regurgitating what was said by an institution that has hundreds of form of division is not a relationship with the Most High God: it is obedience to an institutional doctrine.


    Antichrist has always been here spiritually, but the entity is not going to be as identifiable as everyone thinks. This entity will trick even the best of us - if it were possible.

    The apocrypha is not nearly the entirety of what the Living Word of God has said. Who has the authority to tell other humans what they can or cannot believe? Who gave humans other than the Son of Man that latitude? You are, again, trusting the ecumenical powers that be that have formed your spirituality. YOU ALONE should be dividing the truth from lies - with the guidance of your Father.


    The Word of God is a Living Entity; He isn't a canon, apocrypha or gnostic collection of texts.
     
  8. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    The verses i have posted from the Bible, still have not be shown to mean, not what the verse is literally saying. By use of using the Bible to refute these verses.

    Why have these verses not been able to be shown as not meaning what they are saying by the Bible.
    Why are outside sources (science, etc..) being used and peoples opinions.

    Use the Bible to show me that
    From the heavens the stars fought, from their courses they fought against Sisera.

    Show me that this battle account did not happen as it is stated in Judges 5:20

    This account clearly states that the stars have courses assigned to them that they fought from.

    Show me from the Bible that God did not place the sun, moon and stars He created in the raqia that he created and show me that the birds of the air do not fly in that same raqia where the sun, moon and stars are located.
     
  9. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    1 Samuel 2:8,

    "He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).


    "He reyseth vp the poore out of the dust, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hyll: to sett them amonge princes, and to enherett them with the seate of glorye. For the pillers of the erth are the lordes, and he hath sett the rounde worlde vpon them" (1539 Great Bible).

    "Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia Smith Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "suscitat de pulvere egenum et de stercore elevat pauperem ut sedeat cum principibus et solium gloriae teneat Domini enim sunt cardines terrae et posuit super eos orbem"

    Word: Orb, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition of Orbem/Orbis
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...oDxWfm6JgSELEaa5cfzvKShR-TB7w0efBDLxgpXeVxpv0


    Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

    "8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

    The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


    ✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg

    ✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

    TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

    "This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

    Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

    Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

    In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


    ✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

    "9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

    OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

    Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."


    Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    ✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    ✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    ✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

    The pillars of the earth in this verve refer to Saints.


    "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

    Revelation 7:1 -- "four corners of the earth."

    INTRODUCTION

    What makes the flat earth movement an obvious atheist movement is their complete inability to understand Scripture. A good example is how they interpret Revelation 7:1 to mean flat earth. However, this flat earth interpretation contradicts their flat circle view of Scripture when they interpret Rev.7:1 to mean a flat square earth. This is classic atheistic skepticism -- "Can God create a square circle" -- and atheists consider this evidence for evolution
    Though I, for one, believe that atheistic skepticism on the Bible provides a very solid case for the God of the Bible. For one, its all answered. Secondly, atheists are proven Biblically illiterate when they do not understand ancient expressions and atheists are supposed to have more knowledge of the world than all other people. They see themselves as gods among fools. But what happens when the gods are demonstrably proven errant? This is basically what this flat earth movement is all about -- atheists who think they understand Scripture better than 2000+ years of priests. So here we are going to examine yet another Biblical verse atheists claim means flat earth but as usual with atheistic skepticism they are wrong. And when you see atheists constantly debunked you know that evolution theory has always been based on arrogance and snobbery. Do we really want to gauge truth by trusting the word of arrogant snobs? When you search for truth always consider the validity and character of the sources you are reading or listening to. There is no truth found in arrogant men. Truth be know that atheistic skepticism is so loaded with desperate lies and an arrogant rejection of all Biblical facts that young people today who see this attitude are completely turned off evolution theory. So atheistic skepticism is good for the growth of the Christian church so long as it is properly answered, to the glory of God Almighty. Amen.

    Revelation 7:1

    "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

    Flat earthers read this verse absolutely literally. The Book of Revelation is a Book of prophecy which contains lots of symbolism and figurative expressions for the purpose of explaining much deeper spiritual events which will take place in the last days. Hence, Revelation is not meant to be understood so literally as flat earthers read it.

    The "four corners of the earth" is an expression which means "the extremities of the earth" in all cardinal directions (north, east, south, west -- the four points of a compass). Revelation 7:1 also alludes to the four spirits of heaven as mentioned in Zechariah 6:5,

    "And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth."

    Believer's Bible Commentary -- Rev.7:1-4,

    "7:1-4 The vision of the four angels standing at the four corners of the earth and holding back the four winds means that a great storm is about to burst on the world. However, the angels are told to delay this terrible destruction until the servants of God have been sealed on their foreheads. Twelve thousand persons from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed."

    The passage is figurative because capturing deep spiritual revelation is hard to put down in any common language. Thus the four winds are the winds of change which will bring about a terrible destruction upon the earth and in all four quarters of the earth. But God delays this coming storm of disaster by holding back the winds of change -- which are also not to be understood as literal winds.

    And again we see "the four corners of the earth" in Isaiah 11:12,

    "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

    The word "corners" is Strong's H3671 כָּנָף kânâph, which is also used in Isaiah 24:16,

    "From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

    In this verse the expression is defined as "the extremities of the earth" according to the Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon. But kânâph is not just used in context of the entire globe. It is also used to express a regional area as further expressed in Ezekiel 7:2,

    "Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land."

    It is very clear by reading the verse that kânâph is used as an expression for all four directions and not a reference to the shape of the earth itself. The Bible uses many expressions which are meant to be understood from a deeper spiritual perspective and not from a literal or scientific expression.

    The Greek word used in Rev.7:1 is Strong's G1137 γωνία gōnía. Thayer's Greek Lexicon defines it as "the four extreme limits of the earth, Revelation 7:1; Revelation 20:8."

    Rev.20:8 says,

    "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

    Once again γωνία (gōnía) is used to express the far reaches of the earth in all four quarters (i.e., directions). It is not saying the earth is flat.

    Common Sense

    From the 1st century on up to the present now, Christian leaders have always taught globe earth. But why would the early church fathers teach globe earth from the Bible if Scripture says its flat? The Bible does not teach flat earth and if it did you better believe the early church fathers would have left for us a flat earth tradition. But they didn't. They didn't because Scripture teaches globe earth. Rev.7:1 is an expression which was never intended to describe the literal shape of the earth. The early church fathers were not Godless men, but had a very strong knowledge of Scripture which is why they were chosen by the Apostles to teach the Gospel after they were gone. So they knew about verses such as Isaiah 40:22 -- "the circle of the earth." So why would the Apostle John contradict Isaiah? He wouldn't and he didn't.

    Verses like Isaiah 40:22 are about the shape of the earth. Rev.7:1 is not about the shape of the earth. Whenever the Bible speaks about the shape of the earth its in context with God's creation and dominion over the earth and its inhabitants. Rev.7:1 simply expresses the extremities of the earth.
    s-l1600.jpg
     
  10. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    I hope you find what you are looking for.
     
  11. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, this is my own view, so in that sense I guess I am the one only one bringing it up. I don't know what you mean by "what authority I speak in". What "authority do you speak in"? In any case I'm not just making things up from nothing, I study the Ancient Near East directly from the Journal Articles themselves, I don't bother with commentaries because they generally don't involve themselves with the latest scholarship.

    Job wasn't an Israelite, he is known because of his faith, and is listed among the non Israelite righteous in Ezekiel 14:20 (note: the Danel here is the Danel of Ugarit). It would be very strange indeed to imagine that Job was not aware of the zodiacal band, when he mentions constellations in Job 38:31 and especially in verse 32 when he explicitly references the zodiacal band in saying. "Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,". Using the zodiacal band for identifying the seasons has nothing to do with New Age. That is entirely an anachronistic assumption. God literally says that is what the stars are for in Genesis 1:14 Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years.

    I don't need to appeal to any external authority, everything I need for this simple task is right there in the Bible. You're just ignoring it because you have an entire index of quote clips to reply with rather than listen to your respondents, consider what they say, and use your own words to make your responses. However important you may feel from being able to clip quotes, it would be far more impressive if you could actually speak for yourself. I also believe Job 26:10 teaches a globe earth, which was obvious from my post denying the interpretation of a flat earth. If you had read it instead of simply standing by to drop a bomb of quote clips on everyone who replies you might have realized that. If you want to be effective at convincing someone of something, be succinct and speak from your own ability. The only one these quote bombs are impressing is yourself.

    You may have the last reply. You are not the kind of interlocutor that I would enjoy continuing with in this thread. Perhaps another time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  12. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Matthews Bible

    And Vrias sayd vnto Dauid: the arck and Israel & Iuda dwell in pauilions: & my Lord Ioab and the seruauntes of my Lorde lye in tentes vpon the flat earthe: and shulde I then go into myne house, to eate and to dryncke & to lye wyth my wyfe? By thy lyfe and as sure as thy soule lyueth, I wyll not do that thyng.

    they went vpon the playne of the earth, & compassed the tentes of the saynctes about & the beloued cytye. And fyre came doune from God, out of heauen, & deuoured them
     
  13. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 40:22,

    Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

    ✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329 חוּג chûwg

    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg Latin Definition of Gyrus
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...PwmmXitSt5u8UWaifXz0JHeprfOVse-JbEE_Az6o7ydTc

    Hebrew definition of H2329 חוּג chûwg,

    ✅The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

    H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."

    ✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
    sphere-circle.png

    Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.



    Vault means the earth has curvature. Now ask yourself: Why would Job say the earth is round (26:10) and suspended in space over nothing, if he believed in a flat earth? The word circle used here is an old expression once even used in English to describe the roundness of the earth as seen from space. Job 37:12 also says the earth is a globe.

    "Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...vaOupCWuYXUWuXi-10VKln_zc2YA1XwlPImQBGZ2P1TKE

    And H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl means "the habitable globe."
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg

    Circle here in the 21st century may mean 2D circle, but it did not mean that in ancient Hebrew or old English for all that.

    Proverbs 8:31,

    Latin Vulgate: "ludens in orbe terrarum et deliciae meae esse cum filiis hominum"

    ✅Word: Orbe, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition of orbe terrarum
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...vaOupCWuYXUWuXi-10VKln_zc2YA1XwlPImQBGZ2P1TKE

    Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible,

    "8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

    The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


    ✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg

    ✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament,

    TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

    "This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

    Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

    Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

    In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


    ✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

    "9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

    OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

    Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."


    Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    ✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    ✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND--->"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    ✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
     
  14. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    It means plain and has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. It was merely an expression used by 16th century people to describe a plain that is flat. Even the context itself will tell you that. But since you want to challenge me on what the 1537 Matthew's Bible says I will show you what is written in the Matthew's Bible about the shape of the earth.


    1 Samuel 2:8,

    "He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

    Psalm 18:15,

    "The sprynges of waters were sene, and the foundacyons of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidynge (O Lorde) at the blastynge and breth of thy displeasures" (1537 Matthew's Bible).


    Psalm 24:1,

    "A Psalme of Dauid. The earth is the Lordes, & all that therin is: the compase of the world, & al that dwell therein" (1537 Matthew's Bible).


    Psalm 89:11,

    "The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Psalm 93:1,

    "The Lorde is kyng, and hath put on glorious apparell, the Lorde hath put on his apparell, & gyrded him selfe with strengthe: he hath made the rounde world so sure, that it can not be moued" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Psalm 96:10,

    "Tell it out amonge the Heathen, that the Lorde is kynge: and that it is he, which hath made the rounde worlde so faste, that it can not be moued, and howe that he shall iudge the people righteously" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Proverbs 8:31,

    "As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (1537 Matthew's Bible).


    Isaiah 18:3,

    "Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Isaiah 34:1,

    "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (1537 Matthew's Bible).



    Jeremiah 10:12,

    "But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).


    Jeremiah 51:15,

    "Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (1537 Matthew's Bible).


    giphy (1).gif
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You may be interested in this old thread I created involving a Biblical and Scientific defense of a spherical Earth.

    A New Biblical & Scientific Refutation of a Flat Earth!
     
  16. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Well that proves nothing except that round can be inserted into the Bible text when the word is not in the original autographs. Want to try again

    1 samuel 2 - 8.jpg
     
  17. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Why do you keep posting this fake animated globe earth moving at about 6000 miles an hr.
    If the globe earth is a real creation,
    post actual video of the real globe earth in its rotation.

    With my camera i can record 10-15+ minutes of the moon moving over the earth and even show the turning of the moon if i record long enough.
     
  18. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    The idea of the Ice wall is pretty cool, in more ways than one.

    Seriously, the whole flat earth thing fails to me not on account of the science but on account of it being the most successful conspiracy theory ever in the history of humanity. We have not only been tricked, according to flat-earthers, for thousands of years but continue to be tricked despite the advances of modern technology and a globalized world of international travel where all government leaders/personnel, pilots, flight attendants, air-craft companies, freight companies and whoever else you can think of are keeping this secret under wraps for no discernible reason.

    Conspiracies generally fall apart between even two people, let alone hundreds of thousands or millions.
     
  19. Legroom

    Legroom New Member

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    The authors of the OT scripture didn't know that the earth is round. When the scripture was written it was understood that God didn't write them, it was only later that the church invented the doctrine of the inspiration of the scripture.
     
  20. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Nice try but you largely ignored 4 Hebrew lexicons which have more say on the matter than any Interlinear. Back when I first became a Christian I thought the Interlinear was an awesome study tool, and to some small but useful extent it was helpful. But then you realize that each Interlinear is based on a English translation such as the KJV or NIV etc, so it is not really any different than just reading your KJV or NIV except they added Hebrew in the text to make it look more fanciful. LOL!

    The Lexicon knows no translation but is there to breakdown Hebrew words and define their meaning and how they are applied contextually.

    1 Samuel 2:8,

    "He reyseth vp the poore out of the duste, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hill: to set them among princes, and to enheret them with the seate of glory. For the pyllers of the earth are the Lordes, and he hath set the rounde worlde vpon them" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible).

    So how do I know the Matthew's Bible is correct? Well, for starters, its translated by William Tyndale who was a true master in Hebrew & Greek. Also, by the time the KJV is translated, all the best Bible scholars who were masters of translation were executed and weaker translators took it up from there.

    William Tyndale -- executed
    Thomas Cranmer - executed
    Thomas Cronwell - executed

    John Rogers, a close friend and assistant to William Tyndale, was also executed. So with these great scholars executed...knowledge was lost. The Puritans took over and translated the Geneva Bible which was done by amateur scholars. The KJV scholars followed the Geneva scholars as the KJV reads 90% like the Geneva Bible. While the KJV is a fine translation, it is not the best translation. The Matthew's Bible will win 8 out of 10 verses against the KJV.

    "He reyseth vp the poore out of the dust, and lyfteth vp the begger from the dong hyll: to sett them amonge princes, and to enherett them with the seate of glorye. For the pillers of the erth are the lordes, and he hath sett the rounde worlde vpon them" (1539 Great Bible).

    "Raising up the weak from the dust, he will raise up the needy from the dung-hill to sit with the noble, and he will cause them to inherit a throne of glory, for to Jehovah the castings of the earth, and he will put the habitable globe upon them" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

    The word is H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl.

    Here is how têbêl used in 1 Samuel 2:8 translates in Jerome's Latin Vulgate:

    "suscitat de pulvere egenum et de stercore elevat pauperem ut sedeat cum principibus et solium gloriae teneat Domini enim sunt cardines terrae et posuit super eos orbem"

    ✅Word: Orbem (orbis, orb), from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    English Definition of Orb
    Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

    Latin Definition of Orbis
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...HQpk59PbA1IkOiRpBICWEfnZRXtmJ-Xvxcp9SlflWMmrw

    In Latin orbis means globe and world globe. Now lets see if the Latin agrees with the Hebrew.


    Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,


    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

    "8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

    The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


    ✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg


    ✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

    TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

    "This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

    Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

    Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

    In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


    ✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

    "9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

    OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

    Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."


    Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    ✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    ✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND --->"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    ✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

    Conclusion: William Tyndale was correct.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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