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Featured Open Challenge To Flat Earthers Worldwide

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FEZZILLA, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Says you.
     
  2. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Page 2 of this thread, post #37 & #38, titled "What is the Firmament?"
    Open Challenge To Flat Earthers Worldwide
     
  3. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Nothing there shows that Joshua did not command the sun and moon to stop moving. Nothing there that shows God did not create a raqia and placed the sun, moon and stars in the raqia, Nothing there showing that the birds do not fly across the face of the raqia same place the sun, moon and stars are located, Nothing there showing that the sun did not return 10 degrees in Isaiah 38. On and on nothing
     
  4. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    You are using people who are adding the word round into these verses I showed where the word round is not in the original verse period, its not there no matter how much you want it there, the word round is not there.
    Round 5696. agol
    agol: round
    Original Word: עָגֹל
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: agol
    Phonetic Spelling: (aw-gole')
    Definition: round
    Strong's Hebrew: 5696. עָגֹל (agol) -- round
     
  5. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Try reading a modern English version of the KJV. God placed the sun, moon, and stars in the heavens -- the 2nd heaven, being space. The KJV uses early 17th century grammar which largely differs from our modern grammar. There were no set rules for spelling and grammar back then and no dictionary to go by. There are words and expressions used in the KJV that no longer mean the same thing in our modern English. So if you're gonna go by old English Bibles you need to know these things. Overall, with a few minor exceptions, William Tyndale did a better job selecting words that more accurately captured the meaning of the Hebrew words and that survived the test of time.
    Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 1 - Modern English Version
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  6. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    You are reading the lexicon like it is an English dictionary. The word H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl is the word used in 1 Samuel 2:8. This word is how Tyndale gets "round world" in the Matthew's Bible, and also how Jerome gets "orbem" (aka, "orbis") in the Latin Vulgate. I posted 4 Hebrew lexicons from 4 different disciplines that do not always agree with each other. But even the most liberal of those 4 lexicons--being the New International--agrees the word bears a globular meaning. I was also surprised to see TWOT go out of its way to express the globular meaning, as TWOT is also more liberal than the Strong's or Gesenius.

    Here again is the breakdown of H8398 tebel,

    ✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    ✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    ✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND --->"In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    ✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."
     
  7. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Job 37:12,

    Latin Vulgate: "quae lustrant per circuitum quocumque eas voluntas gubernantis duxerit ad omne quod praeceperit illis super faciem orbis terrarum"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...3sCaL5Yb_CuLi0pIYh0z5jqHWKzyb6TIzJN46VIEQ1QVQ

    "Being turned by his guidance to their doing all that he commanded them upon the face of the habitable globe of the earth" (Strong's H2015 הָפַךְ hâphak, H4524 מֵסַב mêçab, H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl, H776 אֶרֶץ ʼerets -- 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).


    Psalm 89:11,

    Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

    ✅Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Orb, English Definition
    Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...3sCaL5Yb_CuLi0pIYh0z5jqHWKzyb6TIzJN46VIEQ1QVQ

    "The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).


    Isaiah 34:1,

    Latin Vulgate: "accedite gentes et audite et populi adtendite audiat terra et plenitudo eius orbis et omne germen eius"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...3sCaL5Yb_CuLi0pIYh0z5jqHWKzyb6TIzJN46VIEQ1QVQ

    "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Jeremiah 51:15,

    Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

    ✅Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    "Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).
     
  8. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

    No where does the bible say the raqia is the 2nd heaven
    Again it is just you adding what you want to the Bible to make what you believe the bible says.
     
  9. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I don not care how he is getting the word round he is still adding that word into the verses.
    It is a fact that the word round is not in the original hebrew verse
     
  10. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    And you know this how? William Tyndale was no slouch of a scholar and neither was Jerome. I posted 4 Hebrew lexicons which all very strongly support Tyndale's renderings over all other scholars. The Matthew's Bible is catching on to the modern priesthood and many priests are simply amazed by its accuracy.
     
  11. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I already provided a link to my article which contains authoritative works which cannot be debunked by a Christian unless such a person chooses apostasy over accepting the truth. If you didn't read that then I refuse to carry on this discussion with you.
     
  12. New Birth

    New Birth Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,...

    Im not seeing the flat earth view from the scriptures.
     
  13. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Well, this verse seems to support the idea that the circle is the firmament of the sky above. Read the whole verse. God sits upon (or above) the firmament of the earth, and we are like grasshoppers. In this same verse the heaven (firmament) is described as a curtain and tent.

    Show me more verses, if you can.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  14. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Why "round world"?

    So why would William Tyndale render some verse to say "round world"? Lets again take a look at a couple of these "round world" verses to begin with. We will also compare Tyndale's rendering with Jerome's Latin Vulgate before examining the Hebrew.

    William Tyndale was a true Saint and a martyr. He is considered by many well seasoned scholars today as the best translator of all time. His renderings will beat the KJV 8 out of 10 word searches.

    Psalm 18:15,

    "The sprynges of waters were sene, and the foundacyons of the rounde worlde were discouered at thy chidynge (O Lorde) at the blastynge and breth of thy displeasures" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Latin Vulgate, is Psalm 17:16: "et apparuerunt fontes aquarum et revelata sunt fundamenta orbis terrarum ab increpatione tua Domine ab inspiratione spiritus irae tuae"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition of Orbis Terrarum
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t..._0OtGBVw1CvDE8FmqtujPzNtXxDnPNOVZIA8-RSjyEsPg

    Psalm 89:11,

    "The heauens are thine, the earth is thine: thou hast layed the foundation of the rounde world, and al that therin is" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "tui sunt caeli et tua est terra orbem terrae et plenitudinem eius tu fundasti"

    ✅Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Orb, English Definition
    Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...FuYTONX4AxcZXm741R6JbWwCkG_THJG36vxdakcqeOx94

    Isaiah 34:1,

    "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "accedite gentes et audite et populi adtendite audiat terra et plenitudo eius orbis et omne germen eius"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Orb, English Definition
    Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

    Latin Definition of Orbis



    Jeremiah 51:15,

    "Yea euen the Lorde of hostes, that wyth his power made the earthe, with hys wysedome prepared the rounde worlde, and with his discrecyon spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "qui fecit terram in fortitudine sua praeparavit orbem in sapientia sua et prudentia sua extendit caelos"

    ✅Word: Orbem, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...3b58f269f20cb8a0576db4c5547ab969c8fd090f.html

    Latin Definition of sphaera
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...1c9846d93ecdcf9a42efcd3f8e52c156f40899f1.html

    Latin Definition of globus
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...934c2bebef2303defabcb02375b1b4be4e79e940.html



    Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

    "8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

    The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."
    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


    ✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg


    ✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

    TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

    "This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

    Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

    Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

    In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".

    ✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

    "9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

    OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

    Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    ✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    ✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <---AND ---> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    ✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

     
  15. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    To add to my post above:

    I don't know Hebrew, so I can't pretend to know, but looking at other places where circle is used in other places in Scripture is found in verses like Job 22:14 which says,

    "Thick clouds veil him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the vault of heaven."

    It appears that circle is likely the firmament spoken in Isaiah 40.
     
  16. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    What Is The Firmament?

    Contents:
    Introduction
    1. Definitions.
    2. Scripture Mentions More Than One Heaven.
    3. Is There A Sky Made Out Of Metal?
    4. St. John of Damascus (676 - 749 A.D) -- On The Heavens.
    5. Isaiah 40:22
    6. The Conclusion of the Matter
    _____________________________________________
    Introduction

    There is no answering the flat earth movement without explaining what the firmament is. FE has made the firmament their main doctrine and use spurious information from the 20th century to promote their dubious interpretation of the Biblical firmament. Hence flat earthers, claiming to be Christians, use information from atheist sites like Wikipedia to twist what Christians have always believed in centuries long before trashing websites like Wikipedia and others began deliberately distorting what the Bible teaches. People simply need to understand that there are no qualified writers at Wikipedia and the site will not allow accurate information about Biblical teachings. Everything on Wikipedia must come from an atheist perspective on evolution theory and the Documentary Hypothesis which vaguely claims all region evolved and there is no God. So when I see "Christians" pushing well known atheist skepticism on the Bible, a clear warning sign sounds off.

    The information contained here in this post comes from more reliable Christian sources, ancient and modern. The explanation of the firmament provided here is absolutely 100% accurate as well as authoritative. This presentation very strongly refutes the atheist assumptions made about the firmament so that flat earthers are out of excuses and flat out of arguments.

    If you are a real Christian you will appreciate this information as it removes all doubt cast by flat earthers. Don't fall for any flat earth arguments nor let them get to you. Nothing they say is true and everything they say is a lie.
    _____________________________________________________________________

    1. Definitions

    The firmament has become an unhealthy obsession with flat earthers who simply are not interested in what the firmament actually means. So they have forcefully made up their own body of theology around the firmament which has become the beating heart of the flat earth movement. So here we will learn what the firmament is and why flat earthers are, once again, on the losing side of the debate.

    The first mentioned of the firmament (H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ), is found in Genesis 1:6 in the KJV, which says:

    “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. “

    Before we go on any further we need to know the definition of “firmament”?

    Firmament/Expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

    "H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
    (1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."


    Flat earthers try to assign such a literal meaning to the firmament as to claim Genesis 1:8 is speaking about a solid, hard, metal dome that cannot ever be penetrated by anything--not anything coming from space to earth, or anything from the earth leaving for space. Flat earthers want us to literally believe the Bible is teaching us about a sky literally made out of metal or glass or some solid structure. But as you can see there is no dome. Though our Lord Jesus did say this about the fall of Lucifer:

    “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven” (Lk.10:18).

    So Satan fell from heaven. But what is heaven? Is Jesus speaking about Strong’s H8064 שָׁמַיִם shâmayim or Strong’s G3772 οὐρανός ? Jesus is in fact speaking about Strong’s G3772 which is so surprisingly well defined that you will have no problem following it. Here is the Greek definition of οὐρανός, used in Luke 10:18 as “heaven,”

    The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

    “3772, οὐρανός [284x] ouranós, oo-ran-os'; perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):—heaven [268x], air [10x], sky [5x], heavenly + 1537 [1x].
    Ouranós, is used in the NT (1) of “the aerial heavens,” e.g., Mt.6:26; 8:20; Acts 10:12; 11:6 “air”; Jas.5:18; (2) “the sidereal” (i.e. the starry heavens), e.g., Mt.24:29, 35; Mk 13:25, 31; Heb 11:12, “sky”; Rev 6:14; 20:11; (3) they, (1) and (2), (3a) were created by the Son of God, Heb 1:10, as also (3b) by God the Father, Rev 10:6; (4) “the eternal dwelling place of God,” Mt 5:16; 12:50; Rev 3:12; 11:13; 16:11; 20:09. (5) From thence the Son of God descended to become incarnate, Jn 3:13; 6:38, 42. (6) He “passed through the heavens,” Eph 4:10, and was “made higher than the heavens,” Heb 7:26; (7) He “sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 1 Pet 1:12. (9) Since His ascension it is the sense of His present life and activity. e.g., Rom 8:34; Heb 9:24.
    (10) From thence the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost, 1 Pet 1:12. (11) It is the abode of the angels, e.g., Mt 18:10; 22:30; cf. Rev 3:5. (12) Thither Paul was “caught up,” whether in the body or out of the body, he knew not, 2 Cor 12:2. (13) It is to be the eternal dwelling place of the saints in resurrection glory, 2 Cor 5:1. (14) From thence Christ will descend to the air (14a) to receive His saints at the Rapture, 1 Th 4:16; Phil 3:20, 21, and (14b) will subsequently come with His saints and with His holy angels at His second advent, Mt 24:30; 2 Th 1:17 (15) In the present life “heaven” is the region if the spiritual citizenship of believers, Phil 3:20 (16) The present “heavens,” with the earth. are to pass away, 2 Pet 3:10, “being on fire,” v 12 (see v 7); Rev 20:11, and (17) new “heavens” and earth are to be created, 2 Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1 with is Isa 65:17 (18) In Lk 15:18, 21, “heavens” is used, by metonymy, for God.”


    So οὐρανός means heaven (singular, as sky) and heavens (plural, as in the heavens beyond the earthly sky). Eph 4:10 says how Jesus ascended beyond the heavens:

    “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.”

    So Jesus left the earth while Lucifer entered it. This does not appear to be an impenetrable sky made of metal.

    But is there more than one heaven/expanse?

    Hebrew Definition of heaven/heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

    "8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.
    Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].

    Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
    (1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."

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    2. Scripture Mentions More Than One Heaven.

    There are three heavens:

    1. The Atmospheric Heaven - The First Heaven

    Genesis 1:6-8,

    “Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. “

    Genesis 6:7, “So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

    Matt.6:4, “Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?”

    James 5:18, NKJV: “And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.”

    James 5:18, MEV: “And he prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”

    Both NKJV and MEV both refer to the earthly heaven--the sky and atmosphere of the earth.

    2. The Celestial Heaven - The Second Heaven

    Gen.1:14-17,

    “And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs to indicate seasons, and days, and years. 15 Let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 Then God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,”

    Deut.10:14: “Indeed, heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it.”

    Nehemiah 9:6: “You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”

    3. Heaven As The Home Of God - The Third Heaven

    I Kings 8:27: “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? See, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less can this house that I have built?”

    II Cor. 12:2, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.”

    As anyone can clearly read, there is more than one heaven.
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  17. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    What Is The Firmament?

    3. Is There A Sky Made Out Of Metal?

    Flat earthers always cite from Elihu’s narrative in Job 37:18,

    “With Him, have you spread out the skies,
    Strong as a cast metal mirror?" (NKJV)


    Since Elihu's words are approved by God, it would be wise to see what is actually meant by a sky as strong as metal.

    The early church fathers also described the firmament as strong and solid. St.Ambrose, a prominent 4th century church father, says this about the firmament:

    “But there is something which needs our consideration: there is the question of another word for heaven, ‘firmament,’ and there emerges an aspect and condition of more solid character, to which is added the person of a co-operating agent. For it is written: ‘God divided the waters that were under the firmament from those that were above the firmament” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.52).

    St.Ambrose does not deny that God made the firmament of a solid nature. He, as well as some other church fathers, agree the firmament is solid, thereby supporting Elihu's narrative. None of the early church fathers were scientists, but they did understand word definitions very well. It should also be noted that Bishop Ambrose was overwhelmingly convinced that the Bible taught globe earth. He also believed that the heavens (i.e., space) was so large that we will never fully understand it. So the flat earth view that the firmament is flat is not supported by any ancient Christian leaders.

    Strong’s H2389 חָזָק châzâq from the word “strong” used in Job 37:18,

    “[56x] châzâq khaw-zawk’; from 2388; strong (usually in a bad sense, hard, bold, violent):--strong [26x], mighty [20x] sore [3x], stronger [2x], harder [1x], hottest [1x], impudent [1x], loud [1x], stiffhearted [1x].
    châzâq as an adjective, means “strong; mighty; heavy; severe; firm; hard.” (1) First, the word means “firm” or “hard” in the sense that something is impenetrable. (1a) In Eze 3:8-9 the prophet’s face is compared to rock; (1b) God has made him determined to his task just as Israel is determined not to listen to him: “Behold, I have made they face [hard] against their faces, and thy forehead [hard] against their foreheads. As adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead. . . .” (1c) Job 37:18 uses chazaq of molten solidified metal. (2) Second, this word means “strong.” In its basic meaning it refers to physical strength. God’s hand (an anthropomorphism; cf. Deut 4:15, 19) as a symbol of His effecting His will among men is “strong”: “And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand” (Ex 3:19--the first biblical occurrence). (2a) This word modifies a noun, specifying that it is the opposite of weak, or unable to effect anything (Num 13:18). (2b) Isaiah speaks of God’s “sore and great and strong sword” (27:1). (2c) When Ezekiel wrote of “fat and strong” animals, he probably meant that they are well fed and healthy (34:16). (3) Third, chazaq meabs “heavy.” (3a) When applied to a battle or war, it describes the event(s) as severe (1 Sa 14:52). (3b) The word is also used to indicate (3b1) a severe sickness (1 Kin 17:17) and (3b2) famine (1 Kin 18:2).”


    So Strong’s H2389 חָזָק châzâq is applied to anything that is firm, strong, such as the prophet’s face and forehead, and, the firmament (the atmosphere of earth). We can very clearly see that châzâq is an expression which simply means “strong” with a slight exaggeration of emphasis. For example: Was the prophet’s face literally a rock? Was the prophet’s forehead really harder than flint? These are mere comparisons of the strong character of the prophet. Likewise we know the firmament is strong, seemingly impenetrable. We can tell just from reading Elihu’s narrative that the firmness of the firmament was something discussed but its actual nature was uncertain to mankind until the 20th century. The proof is right there in Elihu’s narrative, once again, in Job 37:18. I’ll quote from some older translations predating the 20th century.

    “Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass” (Douay Rheims Bible).

    “Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?” (KJV).

    “Hast thou helped him to spreade oute the heauen, which is to loke vpon, as it were cast of cleare metall?” (1537 Matthew’s Bible).

    “Hast thou helped him to spreade out the heauens which are strong and bright as a loking glasse” (1568 Bishop’s Bible).

    So we have:

    1. “which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass”
    2. “which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?”
    3. “which is to loke vpon, as it were cast of cleare metall?”
    4. “which are strong and bright as a loking glasse”

    Elihu is expressing the clarity and strength of the firmament in general relationship to God’s handiwork of creation (e.g. Psalm 19:1). We see many expressions in the Bible from a human perspective which attempt to describe something. In Exodus 24:9-10 the Israelites see God (or what God reveals of Himself) and give this description:

    “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
    And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.”


    This is a similar description of the firmament but coming from a human perspective. What did not come from a strict human perspective is the actual account itself. The Israelites really did see God. But they gave their own description based on the knowledge and the vocabulary to express that knowledge. If you saw God you would likewise provide a description which you would draw from the best of your knowledge in the vocabulary of that knowledge. Likewise the firmament is written in Genesis and Jews and Christians are trying to describe what it means based on what is written about it. The account is genuine but attempts to understand it are never flawless. With that said, the early church fathers understood what the word meant but did not fully grasp its nature in relation to our knowledge of modern science.

    Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D. was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. He gives an account of the firmament without attempting to go into depth to explain it.

    “After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

    Josephus knew God created the firmament but he also knows he doesn’t have the knowledge to explain it in great depth so he provides only what he knew about it.
    _______________________________________________________________
    4. St. John of Damascus (676 - 749 A.D) -- On The Heavens

    St.John of Damascus lived in the late 7th century up through the mid 8th century. He gave us the first Christian writing about Islam, which he called them by the name “Ishmaelites” from where their leader descended. He described the Ishmaelites as being the forerunners of the Antichrist.
    St.John was also an Eastern Church father; which, at this time in Christian history, there was no division between Eastern and Western Orthodoxy. There is still only one universal Christian Church at this point in time. He goes into greater depth in providing us the meaning of the heavens. He doesn’t deviate a bit from the Strong’s definition. Remember, you are not reading the words of a scientist. Nobody should expect any of these church fathers to know anything about science.

    “Now, since Scripture speaks of ‘heaven,’ the ‘heaven of heaven,’ and the ‘heavens of heavens,’ and says that the blessed Paul was caught up to the ‘third heaven,’ we say that in the creation of the universe we consider as heavens that which the pagan philosophers, making the teachings of Moses their own, call a starless sphere. And again, God called heaven the ‘firmament,’ which He ordered to be made in the midst of the water and so arranged that it was separated from the midst of the water above the firmament and from the midst of that which is below the firmament. Instructed by sacred Scripture, the divine Basil says that its substance is subtle--like smoke, as it were. Others say that it is watery, because it was made in the midst of the waters. And others say that it was made from the four elements. Still others say that it is a fifth body and distinct from the four elements” (St.John of Damascus “The Orthodox Faith: Book II,” The Fathers Of The Church series translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr, p.211).

    There are three important things we can confirm here: (1) There is more than one heaven (2) the exact nature of the firmament was not fully understood and very well discussed. There was no dogmatic view concerning the exact nature of the firmament. But as for the spherical shape of the earth and its rotation, that had been very well understood from a simple reading and understanding of Hebrew words which even today are understood to mean a 3D circular earth--a globe. (3) Pagans did borrow from Moses (i.e., the Torah which is called the Books of Moses, who compiled the Torah of God).

    St.John continues to explain the heavens from Scripture:

    “So there is a heaven of heaven, which is the first heaven and is above the firmament. But now, because God also called the firmament ‘heaven,’ there are two heavens. However, it is customary for sacred Scripture to call the air heaven, too, because of its being seen above, as it says: ‘O all ye fowls of the heaven, bless the Lord,’ meaning the air, although the air is not heaven but the medium of passage for the fowls. Here we have the three heavens of which the divine Apostle spoke. Then, if you want to take the seven spheres as seven heavens, there will be nothing contrary to the Word of Truth. It is also customary in the Hebrew tongue to speak of heaven in the plural as ‘heavens.’ So, when Scripture meant to say ‘heaven of heaven,’ it said ‘heavens of heavens,’ which would mean precisely ‘heaven of heaven’--that which is over the firmament and the waters which are above the heavens, whether over the air and the firmament or over the seven spheres of the firmament, or over the firmament expressed in the plural as ‘heavens’ according to the Hebraic usage” (St.John of Damascus “The Orthodox Faith: Book II,” The Fathers Of The Church series translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr, p.213).

    What St.John of Damascus is saying is something we already read in the Strong’s Concordance. It would be easier just to accept the Hebrew definition from the Strong’s. But since there is so much squabble about the nature of the firmament, and liberal scholars (i.e., pseudo-scholars) are trying hard to redefine Hebrew words so as to get a Democrat elected in 2020, it forces Christians like me to reexplain what has already been explained in the Strong’s.

    So a clear reading of St.John’s explanation proves that Gen.1:17 is God placing the sun, moon and stars in the heavens--the second heavens beyond our earthly firmament. In other words: Space!

    The real problem is that too many people don’t realize that the KJV is outdated. Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying the KJV mistranslated Genesis chapter one. The people of the 17th century all understood that Gen.1:17 was God placing the sun, moon and stars in the heavens (i.e., the greater expanse of space). Though people here in the 21st century, in an age where illiteracy is the highest in centuries: there are words, expressions, even grammatical rules, that no longer carry the same meaning or grammatical rules of today’s 21st century English speaking people. This is why there are modern translations such as the MEV and NKJV. There is no difference in the meaning of verses in Genesis chapter one from the KJV, MEV, NKJV or RSV. The only thing that differs from the translations mentioned is the grammatical rules. There actually was not set standard of English back in the early 17th century. But today, we have set rules and we read literature and understand it from our modern grammar. So when people read:

    “And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth” (Gen.1:17, KJV),

    They are reading the 17th century grammar which means:

    “Then God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth” (Gen.1:17, MEV).

    Both translations mean the exact same thing as St.John of Damascus clearly pointed out.
    _____________________________________________________________________
    5. Isaiah 40:22

    “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.”

    This is a verse we have read and discussed multiple times. But many are asking: What is the tent? This tent is our atmosphere. And like a tent, it keeps us safe from solar flares and objects from space. Our planet was not poorly made. God knew what He was doing. Though some here on this forum have argued that the tent is our galaxy or solar system. This is not something I fully agree with but it makes for interesting discussion.
    6a00d8341bf7f753ef019b003e90e1970b.jpg
    ___________________________________________________________________
    6. The Conclusion of the Matter

    So from all that is shared here about the firmament, how can we 21st century people understand it? The firmament/expanse of the earthly heaven is in no way like metal. Its much more solid than metal! This is true! Our earthly heaven is much more solid than iron or metal. This is scientifically proven, too. Indeed, when meteorites enter into our atmosphere what happens to them? They burn up! Yet are not meteorites a solid structure like large rocks we see on earth? Sure they are. And still they burn up into nothing. It takes a very large asteroid to make through the firmament to impact the earth.
    But what about metal? Surely the firmament is much weaker than metal, right? Absolutely not! In 2003, space shuttle Columbia blow up reentering our atmosphere, killing all seven astronauts on board. The metal of the space shuttle was not stronger than the firmament. It takes a great deal of knowledge to leave earth and reenter the atmosphere of the planet. This knowledge of physics was not know until the 20th century. If all precautions are not properly carried out, a space shuttle meets the same fate as a meteorite. In order to be an astronaut, a person must have a great deal of knowledge in physics before they can ever pilot any space craft. So the firmament is solid, yet its just flexible enough to allow a smart astronaut to and from space.

    Is the firmament clear like glass? Just look at the photo attached to this article and you’ll see its like looking through a window. Though if you throw a rock from a space shuttle to earth the rock will not break the glass-like window of the firmament, but will burn up in mere seconds, never hitting anyone on earth or damaging someone’s car. So in conclusion the firmament is solid, strong, capable of keeping the earth safe from cosmic threats that would have wiped us out long ago had our atmosphere not been created so...strong.
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  18. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    You just can not understand the Bible is God inspired, peoples opinions are not, I do not care how smart you think they are.

    I can show you from the Bible and only the Bible that the Bible describes a different creation than what science states.
    You can not, you have to bring in peoples opinions to support you ideas.
     
  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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  20. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 40:22, חוּג chûwg

    Outline Of Discussion:
    Hebrew Masoretic Text
    Corpus Of English Translations
    A Brief Explanation
    Hebrew Lexicons
    Bible Commentaries
    Chuwg: How It Was Understood By The Ancient Church
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    Hebrew Masoretic Text:

    הישׁב על חוג הארץ וישׁביה כחגבים הנוטה כדק שׁמים וימתחם כאהל לשׁבת

    ________________________________________________________
    Corpus Of English Translations:

    "Which sittith on the cumpas of erthe, and the dwelleris therof ben as locustis; which stretchith forth heuenes as nouyt, and spredith abrood tho as a tabernacle to dwelle" (1382 Wycliffe Bible).

    "That he sytteth vpon the Circle of the worlde, and that all the inhabitours of the worlde are in coparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heaues as a coueringe, that he stretcheth them out, as. a tent to dwell in" (1535 Coverdale Bible).

    "That he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that al the inhabytours of the worlde are in comparison of him, but as greshoppers: That he spredeth out the heauens as a coueryng, that he stretcheth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (1537 Matthew's Bible)

    "that he sytteth vpon the circle of the worlde, and that all the inhabitoures of the worlde are in comparyson of him, but as greshopers. That he spredeth out the heauens as a couerynge, that he stretched them out, as a tent to dwell in" (1539 Great Bible).

    "He sitteth vpon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grashoppers, hee stretcheth out ye heauens, as a curtaine, and spreadeth them out, as a tent to dwell in" (1560 Geneva Bible).

    "It is he that sitteth vpon the circle of the world, whole inhabiters are [in comparison of him] but as grasshoppers: *he spreadeth out the heauens as a couering, he stretcheth them out as a tent to dwell in" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

    "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

    “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in” (KJV).

    "He sitting upon the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants as locusts; he stretching out the heavens as fine cloth, and he will extend them as a tent to dwell in" (1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

    “It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
    And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
    Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
    And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in” (NKJV).

    “It is He who sits upon the circle of the earth,
    and the inhabitants are as grasshoppers,
    who stretches out the heavens as a curtain,
    and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in” (MEV).

    “God sits above the circle of the earth.
    The people below seem like grasshoppers to him!
    He spreads out the heavens like a curtain
    and makes his tent from them” (NLT).

    “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
    and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
    who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
    and spreads them like a tent to dwell in” (RSV).

    “It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
    and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
    who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
    and spreads them like a tent to dwell in” (ESV).

    "God is enthroned above the circle of the earth;
    its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.
    He stretches out the heavens like thin cloth
    and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (HCSB).

    "He who is sitting on the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants [are] as grasshoppers, He who is stretching out as a thin thing the heavens, And spreadeth them as a tent to dwell in" (YLT).
    ___________________________________________________________________
    A Brief Explanation:

    The English word “circle” is the Hebrew “Chuwg,” which means to describe a circle, circuit---compass, as in a compassing circle (as in a globe shape, 3D circle).Therefore chuwg (or khug) is used to describe a circle that compasses itself. The English word compass used as a verb means to surround; to encircle; to environ; to stretch round, while encompass (also used as a verb) is to form a circle around; to encircle. As a noun the word compass means a magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north). The flat earth conspiracists reject the four cardinal directions in their flat earth model. Flat earthers reject the reality that the polar regions (North and South) exist.
    Chuwg had always meant to be understood as a 3D circle -- a globe, sphere, orb.
    https://wikidiff.com/compass/encomp...BV0-sQC2IQzAeEdFUgkc80r0Y1lgsSLQXsLcP8_VmWDqc

    The earth also looks circular from space.
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Hebrew Lexicons:

    The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

    H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

    H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."

    Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
    sphere-circle.png


    Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.
    _________________________________________________________________
    Bible Commentaries:

    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    “It is he--rather, connected to the last verse, Have ye not known?--have ye not understood Him that sitteth...? (vs.26) [MAUDER]. Circle--applicable to the globular form of the earth, above which, and the vault of the sky around it, above it, He sits. For “upon” translate “above.” as grasshoppers--or locusts in His sight (Num.13:33), as He looks down from on high (Ps.33:13, 14; 113:4-6).”

    Matthew Henry's Commentary,

    "Now that which is here said of God is (1.) That he has command of all creatures. The heaven and the earth themselves are under his management: He sits upon the circle, or globe, of the earth, v. 22. He that has the special residence of his glory in the upper world maintains a dominion over the lower world, gives law to it, and directs all the motions of it to his own glory. He sits undisturbed upon the earth, and establishes it. He is still stretching out the heavens, his power and providence keep them still stretched out, and will do so till the comes that they shall be rolled together like a scroll. He spreads them out as easily as we draw a curtain to and fro, opening these curtains in the morning and drawing them close again at night. And the heaven is to this earth as a tent to dwell in; it is a canopy drawn over our heads, et quod tegit omnia coelum --- and it encircles all. --Ovid. See Ps.104:2 (2.) That the children of men, even the greatest and mightiest, are as nothing before him. The numerous inhabitants of this earth are in his eye as grasshoppers in ours, so little and inconsiderable, of such small value, of such little use, and so easily crushed. Proud men's lifting up themselves is but like the grasshopper's leap; in an instant they must stoop down to the earth again. If the spies thought themselves as grasshoppers before the sons of Anak (Num.13:33), what are we before the great God? Grasshoppers live but awhile, and live carelessly, not like the ant; so do the most men. (3.) That those who appear and act against him, how formidable soever they may be to their fellow-creatures, will certainly be humble and brought down by the mighty hand of God."

    The Bible Knowledge Commentary (1985 Edition)

    “God’s sovereign control over the world (40:21-26). 40:21-22. From His sovereign position in heaven God watches over His created universe. You (used four times in v.21) refers to people in general. The force of the first question, for example, is “Doesn’t everyone know this?” (cf. v. 28) The Lord is like a king sitting enthroned above the circle (hug, “horizon,” which is circular; cf. Job 26:10: Prov.8:27) of the earth and over His people who by comparison seem like mere grasshoppers. The heavens (the sky) are pictured as spread out like a tent for Him to live in (cf.Ps.104:2). Isaiah was not presenting a detailed idea of God’s abode. He was merely using imagery that his readers would easily understand.”

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    “40:22 circle of the earth. Hebrew khug, translated “compassed” in Job 26:10 and “compass” in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the spherical shape of the earth.
    40:22 stretcheth out the heavens. This phrase is possibly a reference to the expanding universe, as envisioned by modern astronomers. There are numerous references in Scripture to the “stretching-out” or “spreading-out” of the heavens (space) when God created the universe. See, for example, Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12. Alternatively, the “heavens” referred to here may refer simply to the atmospheric heavens, spread out like a curtain or “tent to dwell in” around a circle of the earth. This atmospheric “tent”, refracting and spreading light over the hemisphere, is sharply distinct from the darkness outside.”

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    Chuwg: How It Was Understood By The Ancient Church

    Here is 4th century Bishop Ambrose giving a reading from Isaiah 40:22.

    "And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

    † Jerome's Latin Vulgate,

    "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum."

    The Latin word gyrum (also gyrus) translates as circle/globe/orb in English.
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...8dce02c00388566751dfd448c6814ee23d104cb1.html

    The Douay-Rheims Bible is an English translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate:

    "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Douay-Rheims Bible).

    The English "circle" is meant to be understood as a 3D circle as seen from space.
    planet-earth-facts.jpg
     
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