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Featured Open Challenge To Flat Earthers Worldwide

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FEZZILLA, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    God slows down the rotation of the earth.
     
  2. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    As long as we agree: None of those verses says the earth is flat. Fine.

    Those words don't mean what you think they do.
     
  3. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    You haven't read enough of the flat earth threads in these forums.
     
  4. Zetetica

    Zetetica Well-Known Member

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    and stops it then spins it backward, eh? What a physics nightmare. Thing is, the Bible doesn’t say God stopped the Earth from spinning.
     
  5. Zetetica

    Zetetica Well-Known Member

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    You really are full of judgment, aren’t you? When did attacking the messenger rather than the message become okay on a Christian forum? I’m not an anarchist either, much less anything else you accused. Now, I’m done with you.
     
  6. Zetetica

    Zetetica Well-Known Member

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    Disturbing...
     
  7. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Well think about it. What do anarchists do? They manipulate everything with the goal of causing chaos and the entire collapse of modern civilization. Oh I am all too familiar with anarchists. They also manipulate the Bible with the purpose of causing mass apostasy from the Christian faith. Now what have flat earth advocates been doing here besides manipulating the Bible and speaking on their own authority as if they were the source of knowledge. That's anarchy within the Christian faith and Jesus don't want disobedient anarchists taking over the ministry that started 2000 years ago long before our current rise of radical leftists and their anarchy and chaos. We Christians know what we believe and where we came from. We do not and will not accept these new teachings from flat earthers which is nothing but atheist skepticism of the Bible dressed up as creationism. This is why I also quote from DR.Henry Morris a lot so people will know what real creationists have been teaching.
     
  8. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    God didn't stop the earth from spinning. He merely slowed down the earth's rotation. This event in Joshua 10 is known as the day twice the natural length, and like the Flood is recorded in every history on both sides of the world, but in some legends it known as a night that lasted twice the natural length.

    Joshua 10: 12-14,

    Ҧ Then spake Joshua to the Lord, in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stay thou in Gibeon, and thou Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.
    And the Sun abode, and the moon stood still, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies: (is not this written in the book of Jasher?) so the Sun abode in the midst of the heaven, and hasted not to go down for a whole day. And there was no day like that before it, nor after it, that the Lord heard the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel" (Joshua 10: 1-13, 1599 Geneva Bible).

    This passage has been used since the Galileo incident to prove how the sun moves around the earth....around the sphere of the earth, that is. The prophecy, coming from a lost Book of the Bible, presumably lost in one of the burning libraries of history, is hard to examine because it no longer exist. All that remains of Jasher is what is quoted in the Bible, and the $25.00 forgery you can buy which contains the same account cited in Joshua 10 which proves its a modern forgery, probably a Mormon forgery. The prophecy, however, is about a long day, twice the natural length. This prophecy fulfills here in Joshua 10 and there is ample historical proofs from various ancient nations from the time of Joshua which either speak of such a day, or, as in countries like Mexico etc, speak about a long night twice the natural length. The sun that stops is only from the human perception. There are many who say that the sun stopping is an expression, and this may indeed be true about the passage. But even in the event this sun which stops in the middle of the sky is to be taken literally, as I believe is most likely to be the case here, it is not God telling Moses (presumably the author of Jasher) that the sun moves or stops, but comes from the perspective of Moses or whoever wrote the Book of Jasher. Again, the prophecy is about a day twice the natural length which was a miracle and one that God made happen. How exactly God made this happen is unknown. Perhaps God had slowed down the earth’s rotation or even froze time somehow. This cannot be explained in strict terms of modern science since this miracle is one done by God.

    Then the question still lingers on what exactly what written in Jasher? But putting questions we can't answer aside, some flat earthers say verse 12 is saying God told Joshua the sun circles the earth:

    "Then spake Joshua to the Lord, in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stay thou in Gibeon, and thou Moon, in the valley of Aijalon."

    There is nothing in this verse saying God told Joshua anything about astronomy here. Joshua's faith and obedience was not measured by his knowledge of astronomy. By faith, Joshua called the LORD to join him and the Israelites in battle against their enemies. God wasn't concerned about Joshua's knowledge of astronomy. If a vast knowledge of astronomy was needed for God to interact with ancient man then God probably would have destroyed the world!

    Lastly, It was God Who performed the miracle at Joshua's command. Did Joshua believe the sun circled the earth? He probably did believe that. But, not being a Divine Bully, God did not hold Joshua's lack of astronomical knowledge against him. So there is nothing wrong with the passage.

    *Note: I used the Geneva Bible because I was also studying it at the same time I wrote this article. The Geneva Bible was the worst translation of the 16th century but accurate where it is quoted which is why I never switched out the Geneva Bible with another translation.
     
  9. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    We need more flat earth experts on this forum. So keep piling on the flat earth skepticism of the Bible because I enjoy answering it ;)
     
  10. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    It has been tried before. When you do say something correct, your material is deleted or removed.

    I actually gave incredible amount of detail on the differential geometry and topology of this plane of existence, as well as the physics that would sustain the forces and motion - all while championing a non-globe plane of existence.

    I did not say it was flat; it is a manifold. That is usually as far as I can get before persons who cannot verify simple kinematics start chiming in and derailing the thread - or the thread is downright shut down or deleted with no warning.

    I have explained what I have come up with - tested it, and reproduced it (as well as taught it to my students, and they reproduce[d] the same model with the same results). There are people out there that can elegantly explain their non-globe earth model. But, I understand why this is a hot thing right now, even though it has been well known for millennia despite philosophical paradigm shifts. This current paradigm is shifting, and one of the things that buckles before the "new age" is the idea and structure of knowledge. (It also explains why some can only resort to calling others names for questioning the status quo - it is spiritual in nature.)
     
  11. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I do not care about arguments from modern science. If atheists want to believe the earth is flat than have at it. But where in the Bible does it say the earth is flat? Can you point out a single verse that teaches flat earth? For I am a little confused about your position here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  12. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I agree that this flat earth movement seeks a paradigm shift in knowledge which is why I began debating flerfs. They seem to desire anarchy and chaos over modern civilization and prosperity.
     
  13. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is the only God given authority now as to what a person knows about God (Holy Spirit, Jesus, Father) and what God wants people to know at this point of time about his Creation, and any other area the Bible touches on.
    I do not give an ounce of care for these man appointed so called people of God say about any areas of their opinions, many of them coming from a pagan background.

    And you have no writing from Clement stating anything about the earth being a globe etc.. even the one set of writing attributed to Him is not 100% postive of his authorship.
     
  14. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    To prove that, you have to use science, you can not prove that by the Bible alone. The Bible is clear in many areas with only the obtuse person toward these clear accounts in the Bible would say they do not actually mean what they say.
     
  15. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    The earth is not flat; it is a manifold - namely, a level curve shaped space. However, what we call "terra firma," the actual earth is not spherical/ball. There is no direct mention of the geometry of the earth in the canon. The most common mentions are the verses about the circle of the earth - which gives people the ammunition to call it flat (being green on differential geometry). The thing is that a circle is the same thing as a sphere.

    Now, there is plenty of information in the gnostics and apocrypha about the shape of the planet, the location of the sun and moon, the identity of the stars, the structure of other planes of existence, et cetera.

    I am a mathematician but I am not an atheist. You can be a scientist and follow the Most High God; in fact, I personally don't see how one can gain full knowledge in science without a relationship with Him. I find it much more insulting to trust humans without actually having your own say. If you aren't a physicist, then learn physics and then verify things yourself. This is why humanity will never advance beyond a certain point - we let other humans control our thinking, and then fight tooth and nail for lies.

    1 Samuel 2:8 - Irrotational earth

    Isaiah 11:12 - We are told that the earth can be idealized as quadrants - by implication with the geometry focus as a circle (although it doesn't have to be circular). A circle is just a 1-sphere, and a classical sphere is a 2-sphere: same manifold, different projections. In the 2-sphere manifold, the quadrants would be extended to octants.

    Isaiah 40:22 - Geometric description of the plane of existence known as Earth (w.r.t. the plane of existence known as Heaven)

    Job 22:14 - Circuits are closed loops that are not usually 3D by implication and context. The Hebrew for circuit (chug) actually means "circle" or "vaulted".

    Proverbs 8:27 - Inscribing a circle (chug again) is self explanatory especially in the context of the Hebrew. And yet (to a mathematician), the inscription of a circle does not mean your shape is necessarily "flat". The word "flat" itself is a gross misnomer for the geometry.



    That is all I will put for now. There is enough to go on in the canon (as usual).
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
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  16. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Really? You cannot be saved unless you believe everything the bible says?

    How, then, do you explain solid Christians that have opposing views on YEC, Once saved always saved, Pre, Mid and Post trib rapture.....the list goes on.

    No........salvation comes from the solid belief of Christ's work on the cross... There are many many theological topics that people can have different views on... that do not deny them their salvation.
     
  17. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Ah, looks are usually deceiving in a paradigm shift. Labels and their implications help to increase the power of that deceit.
     
  18. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I have already wasted too much time with even acknowledging anything you say here.
     
  19. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I am certainly not going to waste my time reading all your dribble drabble that you have been posting now for two weeks or more the same ole same . If you can not make your argument in a paragraph or two then your stance is not worth the time to fool with.
     
  20. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Early Church Fathers Speak Out Against Flat Earth

    Outline:

    Introduction
    1.St.Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
    2.St.Jerome (334 - 420 A.D.)
    3.St.Ambrose (337-397 A.D.)
    4. Origen (185-254 A.D.)
    5. Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
    6. Clement of Rome (35 - 99 A.D.)
    7. Origen Explains Clement’s Comment
    8. Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D. -- *Note: Josephus wasn't a church father but included here due to his relevance on the issue).
    ________________________________________________________________

    INTRODUCTION

    The early church fathers were the successors of the Apostles. While they weren't Scripture, they studied the Scriptures with the Apostles and then passed on that knowledge to their successors. This is called the Apostolic Succession and knowledge of the Gospel is part of that succession. The writings of the early church fathers are valuable for understanding early Christian beliefs and practices. They were all well seasoned in reading Hebrew and Greek, as well as Latin. Simple little things like defining a Hebrew word were not hard for them. The only time these early church fathers struggled to understand and interpret Scripture was when they spoke about prophecies which were not written for their time. Apart from that simple matters like the shape of the earth were easy for them.

    Now many flat earthers will reject the early church fathers only for the reasons that the early church fathers don't accept their strange fire. The FE movement cannot trace their beliefs past 200 years which means what they preach is indeed strange fire and unknown to the ancient Jews and Christians. We traditional Christians can trace back all of our beliefs back to the Apostles who were eye witnesses to the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. There are no gaps in our ecclesiastical lineage which is how we know the FE movement is strange fire.

    So here I will start at the 4th century and work my way down to the 1st century.
    __________________________________________________________________
    1. St.Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

    It is very clear that Augustine believed in a spherical earth. The following citations are taken from Augustine’s book The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1. (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41).

    “But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (p.33).

    Here Augustine is speaking about the light God created. He speaks with confidence concerning his own knowledge of the shape of the earth. He sees an earth that is spherical and rotating. He may not of had all the knowledge he would have wanted to know, but the shape of the earth is spoken with confidence.

    Wikipedia has a Flat Earth page which claims Augustine was a flat earther based on his skepticism of antipodes. But Augustine never doubted the sphericity of the earth. He just didn't think that just because the earth is spherical that it immediately follows the opposite side of the earth is peopled. He was proven wrong by Columbus. The wiki page, however, is proven wrong by Augustine's words here.

    In the next citation Augustine is speaking about “The firmament in the midst of the waters.”

    “Now we are seeking to know whether the Creator, who has ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight, has assigned to the mass of waters not just one proper place around the earth, but another also above the heavens, a region which has been spread around and established beyond the limits of the air” (p.47).

    Augustine understands that in Scripture the waters of the earth span all around the earth. From Genesis 1 alone he gets a round, spherical earth with the firmament which spans to and beyond interstellar space.
    ________________________________________________________________
    2. St.Jerome (334 - 420 A.D.)

    Jerome is the one who translated the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures into Latin. This new Latin translation would be called the Vulgate and the most well used Bible in Christian history to date. There is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate which is called the Douay-Rheims Bible. Isaiah 40:22 reads:

    "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in."

    The Latin Vulgate for Isaiah 40:22 reads:

    "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

    ✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...uxaDY4fRTRXyQa2AFWHjRU7B_Il5mz59XbwxyizWPnoC4
    ___________________________________________________________________
    3. St.Ambrose (337-397 A.D.)

    Bishop Ambrose was the one who brought Augustine to Christ. This could not have been an easy feat since Augustine was the most educated human being in the world and highly skeptical of the Bible. So Ambrose was a very special holy man who was able to open Augustine’s eyes and find Jesus. The first citation is from On Virginity, translated by Daniel Callam.

    “For the soul has its flights, as has been said: “Who are these that fly like clouds and like doves with their young?” You see, the soul has spiritual flights which, in a brief moment, circle the whole globe” (XVII.108).

    “circle [Strong’s H2328 - H2329]...the whole globe.” Now the verse cited was not about spiritual flights of the souls of the deceased and it was something that was meant for future readers to understand. But Ambrose knew the earth was a globe.

    The next quotation is from his book Hexameron, which is a commentary on Genesis chapter 1. The rest of his quotations come from The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage,

    “Consequently, the year, too, has the stamp of a world coming to birth, as the splendor of the springtime shines forth all the more clearly because of the winter’s ice and darkness now past. The shape of the circles of years to come has been given form by the first dawn of the world” (p.12).

    Ambrose is speaking about the birth of the earth on the first day of creation. Now it isn’t quite clear if he is speaking about sphericity of the earth or the earth’s movement around the sun. But the focus of his comment here seems to indicate the shape of the earth, possibly meaning several rotations of the earth to come in the years ahead.

    In the next quotation, Ambrose defines what the immovable earth means.

    “How the disposition of the earth therefore depends upon the power of God, you may learn also where it is written: ‘He looketh upon the earth and maketh it tremble,’ and elsewhere: ‘One again I move the earth.’ Therefore, the earth remains immovable not by its balances, but is moved frequently by the nod and free will of God, as Job, too, says: ‘The Lord shaketh it from its foundations, and the pillars thereof tremble.’ And elsewhere: ‘Hell is naked before him and there is no covering for death. He stretched out the north over the empty space and hangeth the earth upon nothing. He bindeth up the waters in his clouds. The pillars of heaven fled away and are in dread at his rebuke. By his power the seas are calmed, by his wisdom is struck down the sea-monster, and the gates of heaven fear him.’
    By the will of God, therefore, the earth remains immovable. ‘The earth standeth for ever,’ according to Ecclesiastes, yet is moved and nods according to the will of God. It does not therefore continue to exist because based on its own foundation. It does not stay stable because based on its own props. The Lord established it by the support of His will, because ‘in his hand are all the ends of the earth.’ The simplicity of this faith is worth all the proffered proofs.
    Let others hold approvingly that the earth never will fall, because it keeps its position in the midst of the world in accordance with nature. They maintain that it is from necessity that the earth remains in its place and is not inclined in another direction, as long as it does not move contrary to nature but in accordance with it. Let them take occasion to magnify the excellence of their divine Artist and eternal Craftsman. What artist is not indebted to Him? ‘Who gave to women the knowledge of weaving or the understanding of embroidery?’ However, I who am unable to comprehend the excellence of His majesty and His art do not entrust myself to theoretical weights and measures. Rather, I believe that all things depend on His will, which is the foundation of the universe and because of which the world endures up to the present” (pp.22-23).


    So the immovable earth is an expression that means how the earth, which is suspended in space over nothing, will not fall or drift away from the laws God ordained for it; that the earth maintains its position in the solar system without corruption, as the laws ordained are fixed laws and will not change.

    More on the shape of the earth,

    “However, in the circular quality of a sphere these elements are confused and lose the impulse of their course, inasmuch as a sphere is turned around in its orb and hence the elements above change place with the elements beneath and vise-versa” (p.23).

    The circular quality of a sphere [Strong’s H2328 - H2329]. This sphere is turned (Job 38:14). We can see how Ambrose is reading and interpreting Scripture.

    The next citation from Ambrose’ Hexameron deals with how the skeptics of the Bible claim that the earth cannot be a sphere because water could not remain on it.

    “And first of all these interpreters wish to destroy the profound impressions which frequent reading of the Scriptures have made in our mind, maintaining that waters cannot exist above the heavens. That heavenly sphere, they say, is round, with the earth in the middle of it; hence, water cannot stay on that circular surface, from which it needs must flow easily away, falling from a higher to a lower position. For how, they say, can water remain on a sphere when the sphere itself revolves?” (p.52).

    Sounds like a modern argument from flat earthers, doesn’t it? This just goes to prove that there were skeptics of the Bible then who doubted the earth was round and believed it was flat.

    This one deals with how he arrives to the spherical earth concept. He begins the paragraph with “Scripture points out”, and then cites from Isa.40:22,

    “And further on: ‘Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?’ Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (p.231).

    Ambrose is clearly not reading from modern lexicons. He had easy access to the knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and old Latin. He knew how to read and properly translate Scripture. His reading of Isa.40:22 uses the word globe instead of circle. This has to do with the type of circle Isaiah 40:22 is actually referring to. Therefore the circle of Isaiah 40:22 which Ambrose is reading was understood to be a 3D circle -- a globe.
    ___________________________________________________________________
    4. Origen (185-254 A.D.)

    Origen of Alexandria was born in the 2nd century but his ministry would make him a 3rd century man. He is an Ante-Nicene church father who wrote On First Principles, which is the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

    “Certainly what some say of this world, that it is corruptible because it was made, and yet does not go to corruption because the will of God, who made it and preserves it from being mastered by corruption, is stronger and more powerful than corruption, may more rightly be believed of that world which we have above called a “fixed” sphere, because by the will of God it is in no way “subject to corruption” (cf.Rom 8:20, 21), for the reason that it has not admitted the causes of corruption" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.113).

    Origen continues:

    ". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).

    The spheres of the planets is a clear reference that Origen's reading of Scripture revealed that our earth is a sphere.
    ____________________________________________________________________
    5. Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)

    Clement was a 2nd century church father. The following is taken from his writing called The Instructor, which I’m citing from the very last page of Book III entitled To The Paedagous:

    “And when the seasons, in their circling course,
    Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each
    Should come, according to well-ordered plan;
    Out of a confused heap who didst create
    This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass
    Of matter didst the universe adorn;--
    Grant to me life, and be that life well spent,
    Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak
    In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach”
    (Ante-Nicene Christian Library, Vol.1).


    And the Holy Scriptures taught Clement about the sphere of the earth and the circular course of the 4 seasons.
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