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Featured Open Challenge To Flat Earthers Worldwide

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by FEZZILLA, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I have been told that if I debated the Biblical shape of the earth with a "flat earth Christian" I would be completely and most utterly destroyed and degutted. So I am offering a worldwide open challenge to all flat earthers to come to this prestigious forum and prove their case and make it official here. A major victory on this forum is a huge victory on google. You can help make this debate happen by getting those flat earth experts off of youtube and bring them here where the debate counts. I only have a couple of simple rules: this debate deals with the Biblical view and not a debate from the perspective of modern science. So I will only discuss the Biblical view. Also, since flat earthers claim to be "Christians" then they must use Christian sources and not silly atheist opinions. I would also invite all these flat earth professors and the most highly educated and scholarly among them. So lets get these flat earth Bible scholars on this forum and make the results official.

    Lets put these FE Bible scholars to the test ;)
     
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  2. step_by_step

    step_by_step Active Member Supporter

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    I'm not a flat earther by why do FE only "claim" to be Christians? Can't they be FE and be Christians? I don't understand.
     
  3. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Some flat earthers claim you cannot be saved if you believe the Bible teaches globe earth. But we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Lets see how many of these flat earth Grandmaster Bible scholars show up. They say they love to debate and will debate absolutely anybody and totally dominate the debate. So let us wait and see if their convictions are strong enough to come here and debate the topic. ;)
     
  4. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Well-Known Member

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    The Scriptures speak with a "flat-earth" perspective, this is undeniable. But, we know today that the earth is round. This isn't a condradiction...
     
  5. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    These verse's describe nothing similar to what science speaks of, about God's creation. The only solution is to make the Bible into a metaphorical soup.
    Where the individual person gets to decide, on how the Bible is understood. Which is not supported by the Bible itself.
    “When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”
    (Dr.Cooper)
    Otherwise unless the Bible gives reason to not take the Bible in literal statements and not because of science, etc... Then the Bible should be taken in a literal wording/reading.

    Genesis 1, Joshua 10;12-15, Habakkuk 3:11, Psalms 19:1,2,3,4,5,6, Psalms 136:6, Isaiah 38:7,8, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Matthew 4:8, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25, 1 Corinthians 15:40, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 8:10, Revelation 9:1, Revelation 20:9

    Many more verses can be posted but this is enough for any person who is looking for the truth about God's creation.

    And the shape of God's creation is not a eternal life issue. There is only one object that is a eternal life issue and that is do you or will you look to the promised Messiah of The Old Testament prophecies who is reveled in the New Testament as Jesus, for the gift of His eternal life to anyone who will trust,believe,have faith in Jesus for the gift of His Eternal Life.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  6. Akita Suggagaki

    Akita Suggagaki Active Member

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    Waste of time and energy.
     
  7. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Can you give me a quote from a post, article, paper, or anything where a Christian states this? Or are you just firing a barrel full of powder?

    If you do find such a "christian", I would assure you that they are in error. Salvation has nothing to do with your belief in FE or globe earth.. However, there are people who have come to know Christ... by first becoming FE'ers.

    I do not condone using the FE as an evangelical tool. These people came to their belief quite ironically. Not by someone using the FE as a tool for salvation.

    Nice. You take my post, from another thread.. where you claim FE'ers are all holocaust deniers...

    To which I state that there are many Christian FE believers, that you could not stand a chance with in a debate.

    You assume that they are all here on this Forum.... You are wrong. They are not coming to your party. But... nice challenge.


    Can you show me where they have made this claim as well...

    I think that you need to stop shooting blanks and throwing out challenges at those that you wrongfully assumed were listening.
     
  8. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I've debated them on FB and that's what many of them say there. But right now I would rather see the Biblical proof for the flat earth doctrine.

    That is what they claim is happening but no actual proof anywhere to support the claim. Even if the claim were to be true it is not justified. The Apostles were very clear with their instructions about being truthful when representing the Gospel of Christ. 2 Cor. 4:2 makes it very clear that Christians do not walk in the lies of conspiracy theory:

    "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God" (KJV).

    Here are a few more translations of this verse as I want the reader to understand this verse very clearly.

    "Instead, we have renounced shameful secret things, not walking in deceit or distorting God’s message, but commending ourselves to every person’s conscience in God’s sight by an open display of the truth" (HCSB).

    "But we have renounced the secret things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by expressing the truth and commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God" (MEV).

    "We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this" (NLT).

    Christians don't lie to gain new converts. We never do evil hoping good will come from it.

    "But if by my lie God’s truth is amplified to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, just as some people slanderously claim we say, “Let us do what is evil so that good may come”? Their condemnation is deserved!" (Rom.3:7-8).
    44939831_573748333080399_2785763140200038400_n.jpg

    This passage in Romans further condemns those who lie about the faith in hopes to bring in new converts. Such practice is shameful and useless. The Apostles never lied to win souls over to Christ. They died for the truth of their testimony which is the Gospel of our salvation.

    1 Timothy 4:16 further says:

    "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you."

    Living a Godly, sober, and righteous life, while watching your doctrine closely, will save both yourself and those who hear you. Christians do not need to lie as the truth of the Gospel stands strong in truth. So Christians who are honest and tell the truth will most definitely have a more productive ministry than those who lie.

    Since the Bible teaches globe earth, it is a lie to teach flat earth. Therefore, as the passages quoted very clearly says, anyone who teaches a falsehood in Jesus' name is condemned. Further, Rev.20:8 continues to warn us about lying and deceiving:

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    And again, in Rev.22:14-15,

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

    Flat earth falls not just under a lie, but also sorcery and idolatry. Those who love lies can never accept correction. This is because the spirit of God is not in them. The fruits of the flat earth is not bringing in atheists into the faith. That is another lie. The fruits of the flat earth are leading Christians into apostasy and why we see the world becoming so violent today.

    Christians live for truth. We always seek to do what is right. We also will always tell the truth even if it cost us our lives. No lie ever brought anyone to Christ. And even if a lie did bring them to Christ it is only for a short time and then they become apostates

    But why not? If FE is so POWERFUL and I don't stand a remote chance in a debate with these masterful theologians, then what they say is absolutely true. And if Isaiah 40:22 means flat earth then there is no God because Isaiah 40:22 is a prophetic test as it is the Prophet Isaiah and all of Isaiah is prophecy. So if God told Isaiah that the earth is flat, and we know it isn't flat, then naturally evolution is a fact and salvation is only for the super wealthy in this life and only for a short time before both the rich and the poor die eternally, never to be raised from the dead or to be born again.


    Sounds like you're a believer. Maybe you can tap into the universe and get that flat earth doctrine on this forum. Or perhaps the universe will just call flat earthers to this forum as to silence me. But stop the talk and start doing. Is there even one Bible verse anywhere that says the earth is flat?

    You're here and you claim their knowledge of the Bible is irrefutable. So perhaps you have witnessed the awesome POWER of flat earthers in debate. They never run from debates so why can't they come to this forum and give us a display of their Biblical knowledge so I will stand refuted and silenced in a debate I called them to.

    I mean, do I have to bring money into this? Do I have to pay them just to come here and prove their case?

    Well you are a flat earther as you are convince that I would be completely destroyed by flat earthers in a debate. Maybe you are one of the enlightened ones and can find at least one flat earth verse in all the Bible?
     
  9. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Which verse teaches flat earth?
     
  10. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    I know a lot of times Job 26:10 is pointed to as a flat earth verse, even by some scholars but I think it likely refers not to the waters on earth but the waters above. You can see a bit of a struggle in translators to translate the verse, wanting to rewrite either the first or the second part of the sentence to make it coherent. But if you read it from the ESV and the KJV it makes sense more sense so....

    "He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end."

    In ancient beliefs there were waters above the the earth just as below. The stary sky was considered to be watery, and the firmament kept back those waters. Also important to ancient beliefs is the zodiacal band or the plane of the ecliptic. The apparent path of the sun "inscribes a circle" across the sky over a year. And that is what I think is being described, not the boundary of the earthly waters between the heavenly waters. Why else would the author so stress motion in his portrayal of inscribing of this circle? It would be odd for such a picturesque portrayal to fit something so mundane as the perimeter of the earth. The last part of the sentence I think refers to promise of Genesis 8:22 "While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.”"
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  11. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not if you read the text responsibly.

    Meaning that you realize that it is a collection of translated texts, many of which are clearly metaphorical. You should also take into account the PURPOSE of the writings ... and that they, clearly, weren't meant to be an authoritative source of scientific knowledge ... particularly as Science occurs through OBSERVATION.
     
  12. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    I'm a literalist in that I believe Genesis is literally a true account of creation and the Bible is the Holy word of God. But being a literalist don't make me dull to all the figurative speech in the Bible which is there to capture a deeper spiritual meaning. None of the ancient Christians read the Bible as literally as flat earthers. In fact, 2000 years of Theology proves that absolute literalism is not how the Bible is to be read and understod.

    Genesis 1 what? The Whole chapter? I suppose with such a vague reference I'll have to see what ancient witnesses said about Genesis 1.

    Flavius Josephus (37-100 A.D.)

    Josephus was a Jewish historian who wrote the Antiquity of the Jews in 70 A.D. Lets see how a Jewish historian understands Genesis.

    “After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, and separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put it together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews” (Antiquity 1:30).

    Josephus is describing how God, on the second day, placed a crystalline around the earth. This earth, not being held up by turtles or elephants or a whale, is determined by God to stand by itself (Job 26:7). You cannot place a firmament around the whole earth if the earth is flat or even a half-sphere

    St.Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

    It is very clear that Augustine believed in a spherical earth. The following citations are taken from Augustine’s book The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Vol.1. (Ancient Christian Writers, Vol.41).

    “But if the light first created enveloped the earth on all sides, whether it was motionless or travelling round, it could not be followed anywhere by night, because it did not vacate any place to make room for night. But was it made on one side, so that as it travelled it would permit the night to follow after from the other? Although water still covered all the earth, there was nothing to prevent the massive watery sphere from having day on one side by the presence of light, and on the other side, night by the absence of light. Thus, in the evening, darkness would pass to that side from which light would be turning to the other” (p.33).

    Here Augustine is speaking about the light God created. He speaks with confidence concerning his own knowledge of the shape of the earth. He sees an earth that is spherical and rotating. He may not of had all the knowledge he would have wanted to know, but the shape of the earth is spoken with confidence.


    These two passages have nothing to do with the shape of the earth. But maybe we can discuss these later. Right now a good opening argument would be to supply verses that prove the earth is flat.

    Psalm 19 is very deeply figurative as all Psalms are. However, figurative does not mean false or that it lacks literal knowledge. The Psalm is literally about how the Gospel will be spread throughout the whole earth. I'm willing to discuss this Psalm in greater depth but right now establishing verses that speak about the shape of the earth is our starting point for discussion. Psalm 19:1, 2, 3, 5, 6 do not speak about the earth's shape. Psalm 19:4 does. So lets examine Psalm 19:4:

    "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun" (KJV).

    This same verse translated in the Latin Vulgate reads:

    "in omnem terram exivit sonus eorum et in fines orbis terrae verba eorum."

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl

    English Definition of Orb
    Orb definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

    Notice how in our English vocabulary the word "orb" is listed as "obsolete" to use for sphere or globe. What this means is simply that as the English language changes people prefer the use of globe & sphere over using orb. Though the word orb used to enjoy the common usage with sphere & globe before becoming obsolete.

    Latin Definition of Orb
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...f5HJXj9a74cmin93nl9lA2CDlmJpPBV_WeZZ5V3L_oLzQ

    It means world globe in Latin.

    But what does H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl mean in Hebrew? Lets examine four Hebrew lexicons that don't always agree with each other.

    Hebrew Lexicons for H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅The New Strong's Exhaustive Expanded Concordance of the Bible. H8398

    "8398. têbêl, tay-bale'; from H2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extension, the globe; by implication, its inhabitants; specifically, a particular land, as Babylonia, Palestine:—world [35x] habitable part, [1x].

    The word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof. See TWOT 835h; BDB--385c, 1061d."


    ✅ Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
    46503575_10161103243135223_6829675694939701248_n.jpg

    ✅Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

    TWOT 835h תֵּבֵל têbêl, tay-bale'; world.

    "This noun is used in three basic situations. First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth, including the atmosphere or heavens (cf. Ps.89:12; II Sam 22:16; et al.). têbêl is often in parallelism or apposition with 'eres (I Sam 2:8; Isa.26:9; 34:1; et al.) when 'eres is used in its broadest sense of "the world." The "world" was created by God, not false gods (Jer.10:12; Ps.93:1) and it belongs solely to him (Ps.24:1). God's eternality is illustrated by his existence before the creation of "world" (Ps.90:2) and his wisdom (perhaps a personification of Christ) was present prior to the world's creation (Prov. 8:26, 31). Creation itself gives a "worldwide" witness to God's glory (Ps.19:4 [H 5]) which should result in Yahweh's praise (Ps.98:2). Yahweh will judge this "world," making it empty (Isa.24:4), though in the millennium God will cause Israel to blossom and fill the whole world with her fruit (Isa.27:6).

    Second, têbêl is sometime limited to "countries" or "the inhabitable world." This meaning is more closely related to the root meaning. It refers to the world where crops are raised. This is observed in the judgment message against the king of Babylon (not Satan) for violently shaking the "world" or "inhabitable world" (Isa.13:11; 14:17). Lightning is said to enlighten the "world"---undoubtedly referring to a limited land area (Ps.77:18 [H 19]; 97:4).

    Third, têbêl may also refer to the inhabitants living upon the whole earth. This is demonstrated by the parallelism of têbêl with I' umim (Ps.9:8 [H 9]) and 'ammim (Ps.96:13; 98:9). The context of these references is Yahweh's judgment upon the world's inhabitants---a judgment both executed in righteousness and instructive of Yahweh's righteousness (Isa.26:9; 34:1).

    In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed. Everything belongs to Yahweh as his creation (Ps.50:12). Yahweh alone controls this world (Job 34:13; Nah 1:5) and his power is over all the earth which always responds to his presence (Job 37:12; Ps.97:4)".


    ✅New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis, Volume 4:

    "9315. têbêl תֵּבֵל Nom. fem., world (#9315).

    OT Found 36x exclusively in poetic texts, the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity. It sometimes occurs in parallelism with 'eres (Jer.10:12; Lam.4:12). Twice it is used together with 'eres, either to express "the whole earth" (Job 37:12), or perhaps in the sense of the inhabited earth (Prov.8:31). It is used frequently in contexts that associate it with Yahweh's creative act and that, as a result, express the stability or durability of the earth (1 Sam.2:8; Ps.89:11 [12]; 93:1; 96:10). It is used when the whole population of the world is referred to (Ps.24:1; 33:8; 98:7; Isa. 18:3; 26:9; Nah.1:5). Isaiah uses têbêl more than any other prophet, mostly in the context of universal judgment (Isaiah 13:11; 24:4; 34:1; cf. Ps.96:13; 98:9).

    Land, earth: --> damd (ground, piece of land, soil, realm of the earth, #141); --> 'eres (earth, land, #824); --> têbêl (world, #9315)."


    Summary of Hebrew Lexicons on H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    ✅Strong's: "; by extension, the globe;"

    ✅Gesenius': ",the habitable globe,"

    ✅TWOT: "First, the noun is employed to represent the global mass called earth" <--AND --> "In several passages the sense of têbêl as the globular earth in combination with its inhabitants is clearly observed."

    ✅New International: "the word conveys the cosmic or global sense in which 'eres is also sometimes used; i.e., the whole earth or world considered as a single entity."

    So it is very clear that Psalm 19:4 mentions the habitable globe.

    "Their line went forth into all the earth, and their words into the ends of the habitable globe. In them he set a tent for the sun" (H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl - 1876 Julia E. Smith Bible).

    The Julia E Smith Bible may not be the overall most accurate English translation and I would not place this translation above the renderings of William Tyndale. However, in this particular verse the Julia E. Smith Bible ranks as the best rendering of Psalm 19:4 as both the Hebrew & Latin very strongly agree.

    This verse says nothing about the shape of the earth. Though St.Augustine compared verses like this to an inflatable ball.


    This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.


    This does not mention the shape of the earth either.


    This verse doesn't mention the shape of the earth either.

    Isaiah mentions the shape of the earth in a few verses as listed here:

    Isaiah 18:3

    English: "Yea, al ye that syt in the compasse of the worlde, and dwell vpon the earthe, when the token shalbe geuen vpon the mountaynes, then loke vp: & when the horne bloweth, then herken to" (Strong's H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "omnes habitatores orbis qui moramini in terra cum elevatum fuerit signum in montibus videbitis et clangorem tubae audietis"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Latin Definition of Orbis
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...Rn3F1-g7azZKizEQsvg8d85mGEINL9TEwsL0KiBXvJL40

    For Hebrew definition of H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl see lexicons above.

    Isaiah 34:1

    English: "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).


    Latin Vulgate: "accedite gentes et audite et populi adtendite audiat terra et plenitudo eius orbis et omne germen eius"

    ✅Word: Orbis, from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl

    Isaiah 40:22

    "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (KJV).

    "It is he that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: he that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Strong's H2329: חוּג chûwg, -- Douay Rheims Bible).

    Latin Vulgate: "qui sedet super gyrum terrae et habitatores eius sunt quasi lucustae qui extendit velut nihilum caelos et expandit eos sicut tabernaculum ad inhabitandum"

    ✅Word: Gyrum (aka, Gyrus), from H2329: חוּג chûwg

    Latin Definition
    https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/t...jSifnO1sSjAbZSpXJnzSHMkwH9QryckK0jJzFhZ5Nai58

    The word circle in Isaiah 40:22 has always been understood to mean globus, orbis, as the old fashioned use of circle had been used to describe the 3D roundness of the earth. Though in our modern English of the 21st century the word circle is associated with a 2D flat circle, the old English usage applied circle as applicable to a globe. This also means the word circle in 21st century English, as commonly applied to Isaiah 40:22, is obsolete in usage, and therefore the word circle is no longer an accurate rendering of H2329 חוּג chûwg.

    The oldest quotation of this verse I have found from the early church fathers comes from 4th century St.Ambrose who quoted this shortly before St.Jerome translated the Vulgate. Ambrose starts off my saying Scripture points out and then quotes from Isaiah 40:22,

    "And further on: 'Who sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts, who stretcheth out the heavens as an arch?' Who, then, ventures to put his knowledge in the same plane with that of God?” (St.Ambrose, "Hexameron" The Fathers Of The Church series translated by John J. Savage, p.231).

    Hebrew Lexicons for H2328 & H2329, חוּג Chuwg

    ✅The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible,

    H2328. חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

    H2329. חוּג Chuwg, khoog; from 2328; a circle:--circle [1x], circuit [1x], compass [1x]."

    ✅Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, H2329: "חוּג m. a circle, sphere, used of the arch or vault of the sky, Pro.8:27; Job 22:14; of the world, Isa.40:22."
    sphere-circle.png


    Chuwg: circle, circuit, compass, sphere.











    This does not mention the shape of the earth nor does it mean flat earth. The Devil took Jesus and showed him the kingdoms of the world. This neither applies to a flat or round earth. The verse is also not in context with the human perspective but from the perspective of Satan & Jesus.

    The moon will not give off her light because the sun will be darkened. This verse has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. But since flat earthers accept the Pseudepigrapha book of Enoch as Canonical, here's one for ya:

    “Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which (direction) of the bright sun it is beamed. During all the seasons when the moon is made to run its cycle, the light is being beamed into it (the moon) facing the sun until the illumination (of the moon) is complete in the course of fourteen days; and when it is lit completely, it radiates light in the sky” (Enoch 78:10-11).


    This has nothing to do with the shape of the earth and, like Matthew 24:29, is most likely figurative to capture a much more deeper spiritual event.


    This verse mentions celestial bodies. But does that make it a flat earth verse? No.

    Origen -- On Spheres Of The Planets.

    There are countless references of spheres from our 3rd century church father, Origen (185-254 A.D.). It must be carefully noted that Origen was an important Church father who's contributions to the early church included the very first book on Theology ever written by a Christian. This first ever book on Biblical Theology is called "On First Principles." The following quotation is taken from the John C. Cavadini edition.

    ". . . . and the entire condition of the world we know, in which the spheres of the planets are said to be, is left behind and superseded, there exists above that sphere which is called "fixed" an abiding place for the pious and blessed, in as it were a "good land" and a "land of the living," which the "meek" and gentle will receive for an inheritance. To this land or earth belongs that heaven which, with its more magnificent circuit, surrounds and confines it, and this is the true heaven and the first to be so called" (On First Principles, Book II, Chapter III, p.114).
    46519101_589018751553357_6624527535529000960_n.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  13. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    This verse says nothing about the shape of the earth

    This verse says nothing about the shape of the earth.


    This verse says nothing about the shape of the earth.

    The breadth of the earth can mean the full extent of the habitable globe as strong's points out the phrase of the earth:

    "γῆ gē, ghay; contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):—country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

    However, Revelation 20:9 is in context with a region -- in this case, the Holy city of Jerusalem. It does not mean flat earth.

    You're gonna have to post more verses.

    Are you so sure about that?

    No Christian is ever permitted to lie to unbelievers in hopes to gain more members for their church. The Apostles were very clear with their instructions about being truthful when representing the Gospel of Christ. 2 Cor. 4:2 makes it very clear that Christians do not walk in the lies of conspiracy theory:

    "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God" (KJV).

    Here are a few more translations of this verse as I want the reader to understand this verse very clearly.

    "Instead, we have renounced shameful secret things, not walking in deceit or distorting God’s message, but commending ourselves to every person’s conscience in God’s sight by an open display of the truth" (HCSB).

    "But we have renounced the secret things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by expressing the truth and commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God" (MEV).

    "We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don’t try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this" (NLT).

    Christians don't lie to gain new converts. We never do evil hoping good will come from it.

    "But if by my lie God’s truth is amplified to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, just as some people slanderously claim we say, “Let us do what is evil so that good may come”? Their condemnation is deserved!" (Rom.3:7-8).

    This passage in Romans further condemns those who lie about the faith in hopes to bring in new converts. Such practice is shameful and useless. The Apostles never lied to win souls over to Christ. They died for the truth of their testimony which is the Gospel of our salvation.

    1 Timothy 4:16 further says:

    "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you."
    44939831_573748333080399_2785763140200038400_n.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019
  14. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    Job 26:10, חק חג על פני מים עד תכלית אור עם חשׁך׃

    Other Translations:

    “He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end” (KJV).

    “He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters,
    At the boundary of light and darkness” (NKJV).

    “He laid out the horizon on the surface of the waters
    at the boundary between light and darkness” (HCSB).

    "he hath compassed the waters with certayne boundes, vntill the day and night come to an ende" (1568 Bishop's Bible).

    “He has circled the waters with boundaries,
    until the day and night come to an end” (MEV).

    “He marks out the horizon on the face of the waters
    for a boundary between light and darkness” (NIV84).

    "He fixed a circle on the surface of the water,
    defining the boundary between light and dark" (CJB).

    “He created the horizon when he separated the waters;
    he set the boundary between day and night” (NLT).

    "He has described a circle upon the face of the waters
    at the boundary between light and darkness" (RSV).

    "A limit He hath placed on the waters, Unto the boundary of light with darkness" (YLT).

    Here again the Hebrew word is Chuwg, which in this verse means to describe a circle, compass; an encompassing circle like a globe. Job 38:14 also speaks about the boundary of light and darkness as the earth is turned facing the dayspring (v.12).
    Flat earthers have a hard time understanding a horizon and somehow believe a horizon means a flat disc shape earth. But one has to deviate from English definitions and centuries of education to actually believe this.

    Job 26:10 uses the Hebrew word H2328 חוּג Chuwg, kloog; a prim. root [comp.2287]; to describe a circle:--compass [1x]."

    to encircle, encompass, describe a circle, draw round, make a circle

    (Qal) to encircle, encompass
    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    https://wikidiff.com/compass/encomp...9b1iP4SRuh7gdO0MkVr8q5v86AyGpnAvpAlZneEOEOj9M

    Bible Commentaries:

    Henry Morris Study Bible,

    “26:10 compassed. The word “compassed” is the Hebrew khug, translated “circle” in Isaiah 40:22 (see also Pr.8:27). It refers here to the global sea level, which defines the “circle of the earth” and the “compass upon the face of the depth,” and which defines the bounds which the waters cannot cross as long as the earth endures, in accordance with the Noahic covenant (Gen.8:22; 9:11).
    26:10 come to an end. This is a reference to the boundary between day and night--that is, along a great circle through the center of the earth, with light on one side and darkness on the other. This follows from the spherical shape of the earth, as implied in the first part of this verse.”


    Jamieson, Fausset & Brown: Commentary on the Whole Bible,

    “Rather, “He hath drawn a circular bound round the waters” (Prov.8:27; Ps.104:9). The horizon seems a circle. Indication is given of the globular form of the earth. until the day . . . to the confines of light and darkness. When the light falls on our horizon, the other hemisphere is dark. UMBREIT and MAUDER translate “He has most perfectly (lit., “to perfection”) drawn the bound (taken from the first clause) between light and darkness” (cf. Gen.1:4; 6, 9); where the bounding of the light from darkness is similarly brought into proximity with the boundary of the waters.”

    The Expositor’s Bible Commentary,

    “The NIV interprets the literal Hebrew “he draws a circle” as God’s establishment of the horizon, which acts as the line of the demarcation between light and darkness (day and night). Job was ascribing to God, and not to the incarnations and rituals of the nature cults, the authority and dominion over night and day.”

    The Bible Knowledge Commentary (1985 Edition)

    “At the horizon. . . light and darkness seem to separate. The horizon is circular, for the verb marks out translates the word hug, “to draw a circle,” and suggest the curvature of the earth. This too accords with the facts known by scientists only in recent times.”

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges,

    "10. The verse reads,

    He hath drawn as a circle a bound upon the face of the waters,

    At the confines of light and darkness.

    The second clause is literally; even to the confines of light with (or, by) darkness, i. e. as far as where the utmost bound of light borders with darkness. The idea seems to be this: around the surface of the earth flows the ocean (“the face of the waters”); upon this like a circle all around the earth the arch of heaven comes down; all within this bound is light, for the sun rises on one side of it and goes down at the other; beyond this circle lies the utter darkness. Comp. ch. Job 38:19 seq."


    Ancient Christian Commentary On Scripture (Old Testament Vol. VI, Job),

    “26:10 The Boundary Between Light and Darkness.
    THE ORDER GIVEN BY GOD. ISHO’DAD OF MERV: So God has gathered the waters that were spread on the earth at the beginning and has imposed a limit on them. His command has surrounded them like a circle, so that they might not exceed it. He has set a “boundary between light and darkness.” This means that he has ordered the light and the darkness to occupy their given times in good harmony and not prevail in one another. COMMENTARY ON JOB 26:10.”


    The Book of Job was written about 2000 B.C. and is believed to be the oldest written document of the Bible (though some believe Gen.1--11 may have been written before then). Some scholars place Job about 1000 B.C. Whatever the date scholars agree on it’s very old.


    Added Biblical Support from H8398 תֵּבֵל têbêl,

    Psalm 24:1,

    "A Psalme of Dauid. The earth is the Lordes, & all that therin is: the compase of the world, & al that dwell therein" (H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Proverbs 8:31,

    "As for the rounde compase of his worlde, I make it ioyfull: for my delyte is to be among the chyldren of men" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Isaiah 34:1,

    "Come ye Heithen & heare, take hede ye people. Herken thou earth & all that is therin: thou rounde compasse & all that groweth there vpon" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    Jeremiah 10:12,

    "But (as for oure God) he made the earth with his power, and with hys wysdom hath he fynished the whole compasse of the worlde, wyth hys discrecion hath he spred oute the heauens" (Strong's H8398: תֵּבֵל têbêl -- 1537 Matthew's Bible).

    While none of the supporting verses listed here use H2328 חוּג Chuwg as Job 26:10 does, the application of têbêl in each of these verses are strikingly similar to what Job 26:10 is also describing. The Hebrew lexicons define têbêl as "the habitable globe" when applied to God's creation and dominion over the whole earth and its inhabitants.
    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
    25289332_388354234953144_8057534036754705454_n.jpg

    00454dbe58f2733ca06531e31242b2de.jpg
     
  15. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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  16. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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  17. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    If you don't have time to read the information that I have given you... I must assume that you have not taken the time to do sufficient research at all.

    Of the content in the post that I have made, that you are referring to, two are not videos, they are written commentaries on the subject that you are opening here.

    One is a video that systematically disassembles your view.

    I refuse to post the entire commentary. I refuse to type out all of the concepts, points and proofs, which you have requested in your OP.

    If you post an open challenge... It's kinda rude to refuse posts that defeat you.

    Do you want someone to sit across from you and feed you by spoon? You have arms and hands... feed yourself.
     
  18. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    The word translated boundary here is a fair translation, but it is a choice translation. The word just means end or completeness. It's hard to tell what Job means from the verse so translators ascribe a meaning and pick a more suitable word for the sake of the reader. If you are thinking of horizon then you pick boundary, but if you are thinking of the band of the zodiac you will pick "until" as KJV did. The choice word comes from how you interpret Jobs meaning. Job uses a lot of astrological references for example Job 38:31. It would be very strange for him to use the imagery of "inscribing a circle" (drawing it out) and not have it refer to the most important astrological presence in the sky, the band of the zodiac. People used these for times and seasons Genesis 1:14 in the Ancient Near East so it was very much a part of their life.
     
  19. FEZZILLA

    FEZZILLA Well-Known Member

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    You are just making all this up. Job is not talking about astrology. Did you not read my post on this verse? If so, on what authority do you speak in? Remember, all information used in this debate must come from Christian sources. Christianity is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. The priesthood of the Christian faith belongs exclusively to the Christian Church. Therefore all radical NewAge interpretations are automatically proven false. In this debate you need to have authority backing you.

    Job 26:10 teaches globe earth.
     
  20. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I am glad for you that your saints agree with you.

    I am just as glad that Moses, David, Isaiah, Jesus, John, Paul, etc.. that i am in agreement with them that God's creation is in direct opposition to sciences description of God's creation.
    In which science does not even acknowledge God of the Complete Hebrew Bible (Old&New) as creator.
     
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