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What do your mean beaten sore by God? I am kinda confused by your post would you mind re stating it. Or maybe I missed something in a previous post. Would you mind referring me back to a previous post if i missed something relevant. I am just not understanding your the point you are convaying. Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience.Sin becomes a very big deal as we are beaten sore by God as we lose rewards as well ..I am unsure why one can think that Christ destroyed sin and devil on the cross states that He will finish the works he started in us ..that is a promise and one we should believe .. there is no will finish the works as long as this or that ..he works on us no matter where we are and will complete the works in us IF he started them ..in order for him to start we must be saved we accept him truly ..and sin Is ALWAYS a big deal you do not do them ..
and who are his sheep ? the ones doing their own will ?, being sports fanatics, drinking beer going to movies and church on sunday ??.. nope so the verse does not apply to those who are not doing his will.. thus it remains "if we abide in him and he in us .. and endure to the end ,we will be saved .. if not we will be cut off . if we are abiding inn him and are remaining obedience to him then we are his sheep ..if not .. we are not his sheep and thus wont be saved .John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
That is great news, I hope she was able to turn from that sin. Repent means to turn if you repent you stop doing the sin. Then you are healed, covered. I have confessed things and gone right back to the sin that is not repentance. It is not until we truly repent that Yeshua can cover our sin.I don't know a single Christian who says that OSAS is wishy-washy / no big deal. On the contrary, sin is the source of grief in the lives of most Christians who admit it. Some confess their grief in prayer, some to another Christian or Christians. I had a Christian lady cry out in agony to me, "I have a secret sin!" My response: "No sins are secret. They are all well-known to your Savior. Confess that sin; rejoice in His forgiveness." I, personally, could not make it through the day if I did not consciously, sincerely, repent. 1 John 1:9 is the key.
and who are his sheep ? the ones doing their own will ?, being sports fanatics, drinking beer going to movies and church on sunday ??.. nope so the verse does not apply to those who are not doing his will.. thus it remains "if we abide in him and he in us .. and endure to the end ,we will be saved .. if not we will be cut off . if we are abiding inn him and are remaining obedience to him then we are his sheep ..if not .. we are not his sheep and thus wont be saved .
if we were his sheep , but we ceased to abide in him.. we are no longer his sheep .
if we are no longer hos sheep then we can be plucked out of his hand .. but if we are abiding i him and are obedience to him ,, then we are hos sheep .. and safe .
to remain safe we must remain in him . just because no one can pluck them out of his hand does not mean he cannot cast them from his hand just as he will spew the from his mouth .
Romans 8.38-39 is very relevant.John 6:66-67 From that time, many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?' " This Scripture tells me it IS possible to "turn back and no longer follow Him," and Jesus also asked the Twelve if they wanted to "go away as well." He would not have asked that if it were not possible for them to leave. I believe we ALL should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," as Php. 2:12 commands us to do.
to be chastised by god as a discipline but was I believe it was stated as chastised sore .that is for those that are God children he disciplines other wise we be fatherless. this discipline is so we obey him so sin is a big deal but not hell bound.What do your mean beaten sore by God? I am kinda confused by your post would you mind re stating it. Or maybe I missed something in a previous post. Would you mind referring me back to a previous post if i missed something relevant. I am just not understanding your the point you are convaying. Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience.
These supposed contrary versus seem to always not hit it right on the head not like this for instance ..He will finish the works he started in you ..this is a promise shoud this scripture be negated ..this talks of a true conversion of the believer has a PROMISE of the works of christ being finished in them ..we all have this promise ..we cannot believe in christs death ressurection without it being by the sealing power of the holy ghost ..
..and the truth is shown that HE will do the works in us and he works through us to the point that even our works are by him because he knows what is needed perfectly to complete us we do not ...
this follows a simple All Glory to God ..Our works are not even we do but He does when we do things on our own it always tends to hinder stress out and suffer..let him work ..relax ..think about this .
If you relax and pray and just recognize where we are wrong and understand we have eternal life and yes we are punshed for sin and can lose rewards that is bad ..but not to the point we are cast into hell fire.
. we ask for forgiveness he works it out of us over time..we may not like the path he picks or how long some things take but all glory to GOD . We were dead in sin ..when he said the day we eat we shall surely die ..they died spiritually they are dead dead ...the tree of life was there to keep their physical bodies alive to match their spirits being alive when the spirit died ..the gift of physical life eternal was taken make no mistake that tree of life was there to maintain our physical life ..a lot of people do not want to think or realize that when they ate of that tree the death did come instantly and was always meant spiritually, the secondary thought was ....shall they reach forth their hand and take and live forever ..so they were removed from the garden this shows that death that was spoken of was a spiritual one ..and now..Jesus became that tree of life, all that picks from that tree will live forever .. we pass from death ..to life in him and when we accept him we are now made alive again in spirit ..we die still because the tree of life is no longer here for our physical bodies to eat of ..but our new bodies are on the way to match our spirits ..
it is wrong to serve a God of fear of hell ..thats a fact ..and thats why I know that he would not put that there on his sons and daughters ..how can anyone love and really serve when in the back of their minds is a what if hell still is waiting ..because know on is perfect no one can be sure then that hell is coming .
Good! Great! Progress!You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense.
Romans 10:8-13.However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him
He does the "knowing," and keeps the Christian secure and informed.and at what point does one know that we have gone too far.
Instructions: Romans 10:8-13. Assurance: Romans 8:1.it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place.
Romans 10:8-13 You SHALL be saved! Not complicated at all!So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation?
No.See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace?
Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it.
Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved?
Forgiven.Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins?
There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth.
I think the problem lies in how we define "once saved, always saved." You are saved in which terms?
haha some mornings a toe stub is not needed just the mere waking up part will do it heheheYou'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense. I wish I could recall all of it, but I can't. Blame that on having four kids and a life of benodiazapens. However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far. See, the problem I have with your version of salvation is not only does it take away from Christ work on the cross, but it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place. So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation? See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace? Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it. Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved? Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins? There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth. I know what your arguments are toward OSAS are probably going to be. That everyone who believes in it loves sin and is trying to deceive themselves into thinking they can live how they want, but that's not true either. Anywho, I think this is all worth thinking about at length.
I also believe your view of salvation takes away from what Christ said on the cross when he said "It is finished".
haha some mornings a toe stub is not needed just the mere waking up part will do it hehehe
Shalom,
Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:
4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.
22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.
In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.
This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.
Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.
5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.
The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?
It is clear that we can lose our salvation if we are not fruitful according to the scriptures. To be in Christ is to be fruitful. There should be no disagreement with the fact that to be in the Vine means to be in Christ. v. 5 "I am the Vine you are the branches." The only way you can be in Christ/Vine is to be saved.
The text tells us how to be fruitful.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
What does it mean to abide? The word in the Greek also means to continue and remain. The Mood for this word is imperative and not a request. We continue in the Vine/Christ by keeping His commandments. To abide in Christ is to abide/continue in His love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide/continue/remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide/continue in his love.
A person that is not fruitful is one that is not abiding/continuing in Christ by keeping His commandments. To follow His commandments is to be fruitful.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
What happens to the man that does not abide/continue in the Vine/Christ? "He is cast forth as a branch, withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
the problem here is .. you assume a person born of the spirit of god would do such things to lode salvation and you assume you have salvation.. we do but by faith .. by faith we are saved but that is calling that which is not as though it already is .. (the definition of faith ) but the truth is no one receives the salvation of their soul in actuality until Christ returns -we are placing our faith in him to save us when he does and it is he who has laid out the conditions of that salvation which he, through no work of ours ,had provided . its best to follow HIS instructions obediently-those who don't .. are not his .they are rebellious .they remain at enmity with him..You'll have to excuse me as I'm probably not the theology master that you aspire to. I do, however, have some basic questions on your version of salvation. I'm familiar with the whole abide in me bit and have heard that explained from an OSAS perspective and it made sense. I wish I could recall all of it, but I can't. Blame that on having four kids and a life of benodiazapens. However, I was wondering what it takes to totally obey him and at what point does one know that we have gone too far. See, the problem I have with your version of salvation is not only does it take away from Christ work on the cross, but it also leaves us with some pretty terrible instructions in the Bible as how to stay saved in the first place. So, what work is enough work to be saved and how much iniquity is required to lose your salvation? See how overly complicated it is? Who can really answer my question. If I wake up one morning and stub my toe really hard and say a slew of expletives that aren't normally what I say ,will I fall from his grace? Do I have to look at shady material on the internet a couple times a week to lose it, or does the mere temptation do it. Where is the physical barometer that one can hold, so that you can know at any given time when or when not you are saved? Also, what about all the sins that you are doing that you don't know are sins? There are just a million questions associated with what you believe, that from my view point would seem to be unanswerable or the answer would be so convoluted there is no way it could be truth. I know what your arguments are toward OSAS are probably going to be. That everyone who believes in it loves sin and is trying to deceive themselves into thinking they can live how they want, but that's not true either. Anywho, I think this is all worth thinking about at length.
I also believe your view of salvation takes away from what Christ said on the cross when he said "It is finished".
It is clear that we can lose our salvation if we are not fruitful according to the scriptures. To be in Christ is to be fruitful. There should be no disagreement with the fact that to be in the Vine means to be in Christ. v. 5 "I am the Vine you are the branches." The only way you can be in Christ/Vine is to be saved.
The text tells us how to be fruitful.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
What does it mean to abide? The word in the Greek also means to continue and remain. The Mood for this word is imperative and not a request. We continue in the Vine/Christ by keeping His commandments. To abide in Christ is to abide/continue in His love.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide/continue/remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide/continue in his love.
A person that is not fruitful is one that is not abiding/continuing in Christ by keeping His commandments. To follow His commandments is to be fruitful.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
What happens to the man that does not abide/continue in the Vine/Christ? "He is cast forth as a branch, withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
scriptural reference..? mans opinions dont carry weightI've heard that the branches being burnt is actually referring to the man destroying our testimonies. Seeing as how men wouldn't throw us in hell, because only God can do that.
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