Originally posted by ZoneChaos
Hebrews 2:1 warns us against drifting. If we are permanently saved, why does the Hebrew writer warn us about drifting?
Too find the answer you must read the statement this was a response to:
1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Hebrews 2:1 wa a warning not to be fooled by spiits claimeing to be Jesus Chrsit., or claiming to come in the same pwer and autority as Jesus Christ. This was not a verse aimed at individuals, about salvation, but a verse aimed as the church as a whole abou thier steadfastness and their focus on Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by matt
Even with your interpretation, what's the point of the warning if we are always saved? If we can never fall away, why is the Hebrew writer worried so much about us drifting that he addresses it here.
Romans 14:21 talks about the "stumbling brethern". Why should be worry about the stumbling brethern, if he is permanently saved?
Actually, "predestinationism", "predeterminism", "tomato" "tomahto". PREDESTINED-ELECTION simply states that God has created some for salvation, these He will cause to be saved, irresistably. The rest He has created for eternal damnation, these He fully intends to perish in Hell no-matter-what. THUS, the "helpless pawns adrift in the flow of Divine direction"."Those holding to "predestined-election" view men as helpless pawns, adrift in the flow of Divine direction. "
I think you have a flawed view of predestination... you're thinking of predeterminism, very different things.
Allow me to "cut-and-paste" a bit of my book:"Or more to the point, is "faith-unto-salvation" travelling in the direction from GOD-TO-MAN, or does it move from MAN-TOWARD-GOD? "
I would say it's all God. Romans 3:3 for example (just one of many).
"But---we are not saved by grace. "
Umm..just by grace through faith..now where does that faith come from? God. See Eph 2:8
You cannot "lose" your salvation. It is absolutely irrevokable. Now that we agree on that, please show me a verse that says "salvation is not rejectable"???"If we believe, then later disbelieve, it is not God who has lied. "
yeah it is. this means we loose our salvation and that is not biblilcally correct. God provides for our salvation. It is a done deal at the moment of converstion. It's irrevocable as romans 11:29 says it is. God's call can't be repented of. You simply can't loose your salvation, that's what the scripture says in My opinion.
I'm glad you accept Peter's letters as valid, rather than dismissing them from "dispensationalism". But to contend they do not speak of "falling from salvation"? Please help me to understand how the "ontos-apofuego-truly-saved", who are "enticed-by-the-false-ones", who after "having-epignosis-right-and-true-knowledge-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR Jesus Christ", then "become entangled again in the defilements of the world and overcome"------please help me to see your understanding of how they either "did-not-really-forfeit-salvation", OR "were-never-saved-in-the-first-place" (careful, if you choose the latter, you hafta deal with 2:1:4 as well)...Peter's "warnings" are an encouragement to be strong and run the race, just as much as a person walking a tightrope is thinking..don't look down ...don't look down. Its about sanctification, not salvation. Don't be an ineffective christian.
Originally posted by LouisBooth
Didn't see anything that discounts the fact that God's call is irrevocable..christian and Israel alike.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
"he who endures to the end shall be saved"
Originally posted by ZoneChaos
I will say it again... he was noit referring to individuals losing thier salvation, but the church losing its focus on God.
If the church lost it fpocus on God in favor os a false teacher or false spirit then their would be no new Chrsitians coming fro that church.
The warning was not about losing salvation of drifting from salvation.. it was a warning not to drift from the focus of Christ.
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