once saved always saved

[Ben johnson]

They are confused by the simplicity of salvation.

What is, "The Simplicity of Salvation", in your words?

 

[LouisBooth]

"simply contradicts other passages like 1Tim4:1ff. We CAN wander, we CAN disbelieve.... "

No, it doesn't contradict those passages at all if you put them in context. Jesus WAS talking about that just look at the context of the passage in John. It lines right up with what he is talking about. Those that are christians can't be decieved.

"NOPE---you can't do that"

Yup you can. In my opinion it perfectly fits into the context and flow of the passage. Looking at the rest of the book its clear that peter was refering to people that didn't believe.

"OK, I await your explanation as to how "anyone who does not abide in Me is cut off ...and cast into the fire", really doesn't mean cut-off-and-cast-into-the-fire... "

I would recomment you read a book called secrets of the vine. The word used there means to lift up. Check out some gardening methods to help you
when I finish the book I'll explain it more in depth. e-mail me.

"And in 2Jn1:8-9, he very clearly states that it is possible to "not abide in Jesus' teachings, so as to NOT HAVE GOD". I would like to hear how John supported anything but the "salvation-is-abiding-in-HIM". "

Tst tsk..you can't say, he was thinking this in this letter and prove it by applying it from another. Those are 2 different contexts. If you don't think that John (who in some people's minds wrong ST John as well check out 2:18..just beleif gets you NOT condemned. I would also refer you to romans 9-11 where Paul expressly talks about the revocation of God's salvation in accordance to Israel and comes to the conclution that nope, a promice of salvation cannot be taken back by either party.

"James knew what he was writing, and it very clearly says "if anyone wanders from the truth, and is brought back, his SOUL is saved from HELL..." "

yes, but that serves as ONLY a warning not something that will happen. Like, don't make that face or it MIGHT stay like that forever. Just in the same accordance with be perfect as God is perfect..can you be perfect? Nope. Its an encouragement. Don't take something as an absolute unless it is implies. Proverbs are full of stuff like that.

"The old is not gone. It is only dead. "

Do you have any understanding of what it means? Death is seperation, PERMINENT seperation. The sin nature can never come back it is gone. If you don't think so I'd like to introduce you so Paul and Jesus they are great teachers

"As Paul details in Rom7"

I did an intesive 10 week study on this passage. Paul is NOT talking about a christian in the current time. the perspective is a christian's but it is about a nonchristian as verse 14 clearly shows.

"Rom11:29 says GOD will not repent of our salvation, but it does not say WE cannot.... "

*sigh* no no..it says we can't. He is talking to the church and Israel and saying the call of God is irrevocable..you can't repent of it.


"Forgive me for an opinion, but it seems you are refusing to just
read the words as they are written. "

I forgive you but it doesn't sound like true repentance be honest. The passage in James 1 clearly shows that you cannot loose your salvation anymore then you can look at a mirror turn around and forget what you saw. Do you think James just forgot what he wrong only a chapter ago? Context

"How do you know which of the Bible is "hypothetical", and which is "exact"? Anything that does not agree with "OSAS" is hypothetical? "

Context...look at the words..even verse 7 and 8 show OSAS in chapter 6. rain falls and it produces EITHER good crops or thorns and thistles..not one then the other.

"Please remind me of the verses "

Well for one the whole book of Roman's screams it. Passages in John clearly show it as well as most of Paul's letters. If you want a spectific passage we can start with the easiest one to see in romans3:3 "What is some did not have fiath? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all.." Is it not God that called us and makes us able to respond to that call? He is the source of faith.

 

[chal0m7]

I had a long debate with my pastor over making that statement. Our salvation is conditional.You must confess and repent to be forgiven. From our perspective, a person can look as if they are saved and then change their behavior for the worst. I have heard this referred to as "backsliding". However, that is man's perspective. God is not subject to time and already knows what is going to happen, so from his perspective, that person was never really saved. If we use this kind of slogan, without considering that it is just a perspective and not a simple absolute truth, and that it must be applied in context to make sense, it can lead to what Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace". I know some people that think being saved has something to do with an altar call, but the Word teaches us to confess and repent. Catchy slogans must be taken with a grain of salt. Once saved, always saved is not a commandment from God, but a theological viewpoint of man's perspective of scripture.

 

[Da Berkshire Massive]

Yes but Ben, how do you explain this?

I heard last night in our church sermon about a man the pastor knew who became a Christian, fell away and totally rejected Christ for over 30 years, fell into terrible sin becoming a drug dealer and a pimp (running a brothel), yet last year God brought him back to the faith- he is now a more committed Christian than ever.

 

[edjones]

2 Tim 2
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Don't 'be diligent', STUDY.

 

[chal0m7]

Repentance is effective up until judgement day. I had a similar experience myself. I knew Christ as a child and fell away during my teenage years. My falling away lasted until I was about 40, when God took me back. I am 51 now. It was His initiative that accomplished my return, not my own. I didn't go back to Him and ask for forgiveness, He came to me and told me that it was not too late.I didn't feel worthy. Evidently He didn't care about that and was willing to forgive anything I repented of. I am still suffering (physically) from the damage drug and alcohol abuse, as well as my workaholic burning the candle at both ends approach to life has left me with, but these consequences do not affect the forgiveness I have received. I have been teaching Sunday School and Bible Study for about 10 years now and my old lifestyle does not even temp me in the least. God wants us to come back to Him, but not everyone who falls away does or even wants to. My story and the one you posted are just one among many. It is a non-sequitor to think that because a few people do a particular thing that it is evidence of an absolute truth.

 

[Da Berkshire Massive]

Originally posted by chal0m7
Repentance is effective up until judgement day. I had a similar experience myself. I knew Christ as a child and fell away during my teenage years. My falling away lasted until I was about 40, when God took me back. I am 51 now. It was His initiative that accomplished my return, not my own. I didn't go back to Him and ask for forgiveness, He came to me and told me that it was not too late.I didn't feel worthy. Evidently He didn't care about that and was willing to forgive anything I repented of. I am still suffering (physically) from the damage drug and alcohol abuse, as well as my workaholic burning the candle at both ends approach to life has left me with, but these consequences do not affect the forgiveness I have received. I have been teaching Sunday School and Bible Study for about 10 years now and my old lifestyle does not even temp me in the least. God wants us to come back to Him, but not everyone who falls away does or even wants to. My story and the one you posted are just one among many. It is a non-sequitor to think that because a few people do a particular thing that it is evidence of an absolute truth.

So you would say that if you do fall away you do lose your salvation, but you don't commit the unpardonable sin as long as you don't die in that state -God will, always give you a chance to come back during your lifetime?
I have heard stories of those who fall away and come back that Jesus has told them sometimes in a vision or even through an Angel appearing to them that it's their final chance- they are forbidden to fall away a second time on pain of spending eternity without him.
If that was the case I would feel a lot more secure, what I fear is that the devil could tempt me to reject Christ as he has overwhelmingly tried to force me to do relentlessly for months in the past and I could commit the unpardonable sin, by simply falling and speaking the words of hatred and rejection the devil has tried to force me to say against Christ and my salvation.
If it doesn't matter what you do, you can always come back even if you only get a second chance no more, I would feel a lot more secure- deliberately falling away is not something I would ever do anyway.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
What is, "The Simplicity of Salvation", in your words?

Believe.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Our salvation is conditional.You must confess and repent to be forgiven"

I wouldn't quite agree with this statement since it is the INVATATION that validates the response.

 

[edjones]

Not only is Jesus our Savior, High Priest and Advocate, He is the keeper of our salvation and souls.The Scripture tells us that the born-again believer is “kept by the power of God” and that “Salvation belongeth unto the LORD” and He is “able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”(I Peter 1:5, Ps. 3:8, Jude 1:24).There are many who teach that just as God gave man a “free-will” to chose right from wrong all the way back to the Garden of Eden,He has given us a “free-will” to choose to keep our salvation or not.This idea presupposes that salvation first is within our power and secondly that a born-again person who has the Spirit of God dwelling inside of him would choose to go to hell over heaven.Ephesians 2:8,9 tells us that salvation is a “gift of God” and that it is not anything that we can earn or possess by our own works or goodness (see also Titus 3:5).Like any gift, one must accept the gift in order to possess it and so many will go an extra step in their reasoning and say that just as one can accept a gift, he can also give the gift back.However, Jesus taught that He is the Shepherd and we (the saved) are His sheep.He said that He knows those who are His and He gives them eternal life- which is never ending, for those who think they can lose it.Jesus also said that after He gives them eternal life “they shall never perish”.Not only will they never perish, but they are safe in His hand and no one can take them out of His hand, nor can anyone be taken out of God’s hand (John 10:27-30).Someone might still say “well maybe you can’t take me out of God’s hand, but I can choose to leave...”This may sound logical, but it is not scriptural as the scripture tells us that we are “kept by the power of God” and that nothing can separate us from the love of God.Rom 8:38-39 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”.Understand this one concept... nothing means nothing!In four different languages nothing means nothing, absolutely nothing can separate us from the love of God.So a person might say, “well God hates sin and so if we sin we are separated from God by our sin”.My friend, Jesus died and paid for our sins and He came to forgive you for your sins if you will only accept His salvation.Salvation is of God, paid for by God, kept by God and it is free to those who will accept.

Romans 10:9,10says: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”.God only asks that if we believe in our heart (not just mental assent) and confess that Jesus is the Christ and that He rose from the dead for our sins, we can be saved.(I Thes. 4:14).

 

[Ben johnson]

"James knew what he was writing, and it very clearly says "if anyone wanders from the truth, and is brought back, his SOUL is saved from HELL..."

yes, but that serves as ONLY a warning not something that will happen. Like, don't make that face or it MIGHT stay like that forever. Just in the same accordance with, "be perfect as God is perfect"... can you be perfect? Nope. It's an encouragement. Don't take something as an absolute unless it is implied. Proverbs are full of stuff like that.

"Brethren, if any of you wanders from the truth, but I'm only speaking hypothetically here 'cause we all KNOW you can't REALLY wander, but if you COULD, and another WOULD lead him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a PSUCHE/SOUL from THANATOS/DEATH&HELL and covered a multitude of sins, but then again I'm just RAMBLING 'cause you can't REALLY fall-away-to-death..." That's how you truly read this passage?

The sin nature can never come back it is gone. If you don't think so I'd like to introduce you so Paul and Jesus they are great teachers...

Jesus I know. He tells me that I am still capable of sin. That's only possible if my "sin-nature" is not completely gone. I read in Romans 7-8 how my old nature is dead, but not gone. And by my weak flesh, it can live again and I can sin. This creates a war between my new nature and my old one (chapter7). Chapter 8 illustrates the solution to the war---as I walk in the Spirit, my old nature stays dead, and I CANNOT SIN. But being Human, if I stumble and "walk-in-the-flesh" the old nature lives again, and I can sin. I repent and "walk in the Spirit", He forgives me.

But you believe that Christians do not sin, ever. That is what you said, "the sin nature is gone and can never come back". Therefore, Christians are sinless...

rain falls and it produces EITHER good crops or thorns and thistles..not one then the other.

Yes---and it also produces plants with "shallow roots", which flourish for a time, but then wither and die... when trials (temptations) come (and they don't endure)...

The passage in James 1 clearly shows that you cannot loose your salvation anymore then you can look at a mirror, turn around and forget what you saw. Do you think James just forgot what he wrote only a chapter ago? Context...

Which part of James1 "proves OSAS"? Is it verses 3-4, "trials (temptations) produce endurance (steadfastness), LET endurance have its prefect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing"? Or maybe verse 12, "Blessed is he who perseveres under trial; for once he has passed-the-test, he will receive the crown of life"? This is not "free will", mirroring the "he who endures to the end will be saved" verses? Perhaps it's verse 14ff, "But each is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has concieved, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren". But this does not mean "free will" or "spiritual death", huh? Maybe it's verse 21, "Therefore put aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility received the word in planted, which is able to save your souls"? That's not free will? "But prove yourselves DOERS of the Word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror and forgets what kind of a person he is. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does." That the passage? How about, "This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world." That has nothing to do with "free will"?

That's pretty much the entire chapter of James1. But you read "predestined-election" and "eternal security" from it. I think, Louis, that we have come to an impass in our discussion. I have read many of your posts, and you are not hateful or sinful in your words at all. You undeniably have a good heart, and seek after Jesus. I love discussions, but only when they are productive. I have posted this as such, because there are far more than just two people reading it. But I care far too much for you, in brotherly love, to even CHANCE to discourage you, to degrade our discussions into "disputes and factions". You seem resolute in your position, and I seem so in mine. We read the same passages, and yet recieve different meanings. Let us continue to have fun in fellowship, and to present Christ to the world as we have received Him. Neither of us have all of the answers. The day will come when we will, when the Perfect comes.

We can agree to disagree, and remain friends. May our (ALL OF US!) goal be simply to love each other, to share Jesus with the world, and to conduct ourselves so that the world will see us, and will see HIM IN US, and will say, "I WANT WHAT THEY HAVE!!!!!!"

God bless you!

 

[LouisBooth]

"That's how you truly read this passage? "

Nope. I read it as an encouragement to remember that Christ isn't done with me yet. How do you read the next verses? Umm..one land produces wheat..umm..and some thistles..but not really..they kinda swtich back and forth....even though its a good field....


"He tells me that I am still capable of sin. That's only possible if my "sin-nature" is not completely gone. "

Opss..that's wrong You can sin and not have a sin nature..as for romans 7, I have done a 10-week study on it and that is talking about a nonchristian from a christian point of view..verse 14 makes it quite clear it can't be about a christian in the current tense.


"This creates a war between my new nature and my old one "

Umm..so if the sin nature is winning when you die you go to hell huh? You've a very unbibical guy.....

"Yes---and it also produces plants with "shallow roots", which flourish for a time, but then wither and die... when trials (temptations) come (and they don't endure)... "

Yup, that tells us that they never believed, it wasn't true faith, only shallow fake faith.

"Which part of James1 "proves OSAS"? "

All of it does if read as a whole book and not picked apart thinking he wrote something then forgot about what he wrong in the next chapter.

"That's pretty much the entire chapter of James1. "

*sigh* you missed the most important section....recieve christ and you are changed..if you fall away that's about likely to happen as a man is to look in a mirror turn around and totally forget what he saw. That is how James premises his statements to be made.

"The day will come when we will, when the Perfect comes. "

Yup, sure hope your sin nature isn't winning on that day or you're "screwed" hehehe..sorry had to get a last chuckle in

I do appricate your views, for if nothing else they force me to read more and study the scripture better. To you I would reccoment a romans commentary by a man named akmeier...man..I can never spell his name right..and I keep forgetting to bring it to work..oh well. I do think we can disagree and remain friends. Many thanks for your thoughts and fellowship..Go with God bro.

 

[Ben johnson]

Yes but Ben, how do you explain this?

I explain it the same way that Paul did. "And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." Rm11:23 And---"For he was DEAD, and is alive AGAIN!" Lk15:24 I've looked at the Greek, "alive-again" is clearly written. To be "alive again", one first must be alive, then dead, then alive again...

@ chal0m7

I could commit the unpardonable sin...

I have often wondered about "The Unpardonable Sin". Contextually, Jesus got mad when they said, "He casts out demons by the prince of demons". Which was really, calling the Holy Spirit, EVIL. From what else I have studied of the Gospel, I think the "unpardonable sin" is being evil, and dying that way. I really, honestly believe that had they repented of what they had said, they would have been forgiven. God is perfect love, and PERFECTLY JUST. It is no "game-show". He is good...

This idea presupposes that salvation first is within our power and secondly that a born-again person who has the Spirit of God dwelling inside of him would choose to go to hell over heaven.

Salvation is not within our power? "For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." We have no choice in it?

What if salvation is "fellowship with/in/through Jesus", identically "born again", identically "abiding in Him"? What if Jesus indwells us at our own invitation? What if it is possible to be "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" (see the James passage I quoted above, Heb3:12-13? ("...in falling away from the living God")

What if?

 

[Ben johnson]

What is, "The Simplicity of Salvation", in your words?

Believe.

"You believe in one God, you do well; but even the DEMONS believe, and SHUDDER." Jms2:19

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' will inherit the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father... Mtt7:21

"I tell you, unless you are humbled as one of these children, you shall not enter the kingdom of God." Mtt18:3

"I tell you, unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3

"Truly I say to you, unless you are BORN AGAIN, you cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn3:3

It is belief that saves us; but it is qualified belief, not mere belief...

 

[ZoneChaos]

Is Jesus Christ the Lord of your life?

Did He die to save you?

Did He forgive your sins?

Yes to all three.. I do not doubt your salvation.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
"You believe in one God, you do well; but even the DEMONS believe, and SHUDDER." Jms2:19

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' will inherit the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father... Mtt7:21

"I tell you, unless you are humbled as one of these children, you shall not enter the kingdom of God." Mtt18:3

"I tell you, unless you REPENT, you WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3

"Truly I say to you, unless you are BORN AGAIN, you cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn3:3

It is belief that saves us; but it is qualified belief, not mere belief...

What I meant was belief of salvation. What is the simplicity of salvation? Believe. Thats it. No tricks, no works, no traditions or rituals.. just simple Faith in God.

 

[matt]

Originally posted by ZoneChaos
Is Jesus Christ the Lord of your life?

Did He die to save you?

Did He forgive your sins?

Yes to all three.. I do not doubt your salvation.

Mark 7:6
"He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: "This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me."

It's about a lot more than mere words.

 

[tom]

i believe acorrdingto john it is you must be bornagain to enter the kingdom of god. so as one savealways save i feel that you have to be truly born again and have relationshp with god.
Yes I feel it was peer pressure. My daughter had a Morman roommate who was very kind.First they just went to social events but litlle by little my daughter was worn down to start attending the chuch services.Did these peers genuinely like her ? Yes I think they did. And as she was lonely and never has had too many friends I think she dicommets. I can only dn t want to loose them. I am hoping that someday soon she will see that not all Mormans are the kind people she has met so far.
Inetersting fact:when a Morman group gets too big it is split. That seems to me to be a way to control the smaller groups easier. [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[ZoneChaos]

Originally posted by matt



Mark 7:6
"He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: "This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me."

It's about a lot more than mere words.

Of coarse it is Matt.. duh!

You have to be telling the truth when you say those things...

Is He the Lord of your life? Yes or now. Saying it isn;t the issue.. is He or isn;t He.. not I say He is or I say He isn't.

Did He die to save you? Saying He did isn't enough.. Having Faith and knowing He did is what is needed.. you must be telling the truth.

Did He forgive your sins? Again, if you know He did, you can honestly say yes.

In all these, how can one know? Faith.

 

[ZoneChaos]

You must know that you have sinned against God.

You must know that you have sinned by your own choice, and that you the one responsible for it.

You must know that you have earned punishment from God, for your sin, and that the fair punishment would be death.

You must beleive that Jesus died your my place, as punishment for your sin.

You must ask Him to forgive your sin, becasue you know that you cannot d it, but only He can.

You must reject sin, turn away from it, and repent.

You must ask Jesus to be Lord of your Life, and ask Him to instruct you in how to live as He wants you to live.