once saved always saved

[LouisBooth]

:lol: no mar, I don't steal, I dont rob. you just aren't able to put it siimply as Jesus did. That's the problem the message is very simple, the one you bring is not, and I don't think its of God either. How do I know that? There are some scriptures I have given you and you give me this way out in left field view of them that takes it out of context and seems to distort was it says because it doesn't match up with what it says in context. A good example is that the ressurected Chirst was Flesh and bones. Ellijah was taken into heaven as flesh and bones. You seek to insert this all matter is evil view and only the spiritual is "good"..which is not what the bible says, that's why I disagree with you.

 

[ZoneChaos]

You still steal....you rob the poor.
But, you are oblivious to it because you don't understand what stealing is.

I'm Robin Hood now? What are you talking about, and why didn't you respond to my post?

 

[InspectorVol]

****

 

[Marillyn]

Z, I did answer your post.
That was my answer. Not only did you "steal" before you were saved, but you still are.

You are robbing your spirit by refusing to allow your spiritual mind any freedom to discern and conceive, so that your spirit can bring forth fruit because you will not consider anything but what you already think you know.

You are the rich man (earthly) who depriving the Lazarus (your spirit) and making him eat crumbs outside the gates. The gates are the eyes, and you keep your spirit back from seeing anything spiritual because you insist that you already know all there is to know and there is nothing that can be discerned.

You are not swimming freely in faith because you are holding on to the edge of the earthly, afraid to let go.

 

[Marillyn]

You're right Inspector. I hadn't planned on doing it right away, as I said. I told you I had already started a post. It was on a word file, but I hadn't saved it. We had repeated power failures last night. I couldn't act quickly enough to save my word files that were open before we lost power again. I ended up losing several files.

If you know how to retrieve the lost files and will walk me through it, I will make that post my first priority. I think there is a way to get them....something about recovered files but I don't know how.

 

[InspectorVol]

***

 

[Marillyn]

Okay. I understand, 'cause that's about my limit, too

Thanks, anyway. I haven't given up hope yet.

 

[ZoneChaos]

refusing to allow your spiritual mind any freedom to discern and conceive

Darn tootin! I am not about to trust myself. I rely on the Holy Spirit and His gift of discernment, not my own Discernment.

It is your own philosophy that has confused you, Maryillyn. And, I would almost bet that you have been told that before.

 

[Marillyn]

I've been told a lot of things. :lol:

I've actually been told that I can't trust God---by well meaning "christians" on a "christian forum" , no less. Really!

.....and that my rebellious son's instantaneous conversion was the work of the Satan....that Satan gave me the vision I had and was the one who said, "I am healing his thoughts and deeds" while that conversion was taking place in another town.

God wants to reveal things to us. He will lead us to the edge so that we can look while He explains what's happening. People say they trust Him, but they don't. They won't even go out of their own yard with Him, much less walk to the edge.

 

[ZoneChaos]

I never said anything about trust.

 

[Marillyn]

Sure you did. You said you didn't trust yourself but relied upon God. To support your opinion of me, you added that you were sure I had heard the same thing before.

You say you trust God, but you will not venture out of your fenced yard to let God show you that there is more to be seen than you can see. And, your opinion of me or my thoughts are irrelevant. If you could support them with and not contradict scriptures, that reasoning is important. But, thus far, you haven't.

You keep contradicting scripture and support your contradictions with opinions, not scripture.

You're wearing a rather loose-woven garment and your nakedness shows through it. The more you exalt yourself, the more you expose that nakedness.

 

[ZoneChaos]

Just let me correct my previous post.. I naver said anything about trusting referring to you...

 

[Marillyn]

I don't expect you to trust me. I don't expect (and do not want) you to be persuaded by what I say. You must prove all things and trust God to hold your hand and keep you from falling. That is the only way you are going to be bold enough to venture outside the confines of your own preconconceptions based upon what men have taught you thus far.

 

[Ben johnson]

Sure ben here we go...
"Col1:21-23" Ummm...no where do I see in this passage about loosing your salvation. It
just talks about not falling away from doing what is right, ie fufilling what God has
planned for you.

So, you believe in "Carnal Christianity", where someone can FALL AWAY from God, walk in sin continually, but they will still be saved???

"Gal5:4" Umm..if you are justifiing yourself by the law, then you are never saved in the
first place. Just read 2:26 This doesn't say anything about loosing your salvation
when you read the book of galatians and take this verse in context.

Uhhhmmmm, sorry, YES IT DOES... To be "severed from Christ", you must first be "IN Christ". To be "fallen from grace", you must first be "IN GRACE". The key is 5:1, where Paul is admonishing them-who-have-been-saved, to not return to a yoke of slavery (law)...

"1Tim4:1"

umm...where does that say loose your salvation? If you abandon your faith, was it God
given? Nope hence not REAL faith. What is Paul talking about here? He is talking
about mixing of the message with worldly things. He is talking about correcting others to
keep them right with God. Read verse 7.

"Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14"

The first passage in chapter 2 talks about drifting away not loosing your salvation, in
other words becoming a useless soldier in God's army. Again in the second passage it
is refering to the same thing. You can be rebelous when you're a christian, that doesn't
mean you loose your faith, if its true faith.

Back to the "carnal-but-SAVED-thing again, huh? What then, exactly, is "True Faith"???

"2Pet2:20-22 " This is refering to people who hear the message but turn away from it.
That is not talking about loosing salvation either

There is no passage in the Bible that more clearly speaks of saved Christians who "lose" their salvation. Let's look at 2Peter 1:1-4. I'm counting on you actually looking this passage up. These have "apofuego-escaped" the corruption that is in the world by lust, through the "epignosis-true-knowledge" of Jesus. Can we agree that these are SAVED??? Now look at 2:2:14. The "false ones never cease from sinning". Never. They are NOT SAVED. But they seek to entice the "Ontos-Apofuego-TRULY-ESCAPED" into sin, verse 18. These "truly escaped" are escaped by the " EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST" verse 20. They are SAVED. BUt in verses 20-22, they are "again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome, the second state is worse than the first." What was their first state? UNSAVED. Now they are WORSE THAN THAT. "Far better to have never KNOWN (epignosis variant) the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed to them..." They turned from the holy commandment, and became worse than before they were saved.. . But you believe THEY ARE STILL SAVED!!! I don't know what to do. I am commanded to love and not condemn, to admonish and not engage in factions and dissentions, to build and not destroy. How do I answer this with honor, respectfully? It seems clear that you deny the very words that Peter wrote. How can I argue further? If you do not accept what Scripture plainly says, then I have no argument for you...

"James 5:19-20 " Umm..nothing about loosing salvation here either. It talks about
turning a sinner. Now read what the passage is all about in verse 15. It talks about a
sinner asking for forgivness of their sins, Christians do that, that doesn't mean they
loose salvation. There is no implication of a death being death in hell.

Actually, yes there is. The Greek here for "soul" is "psuche", exactly as John uses in Rev20:4 to speak of "eternal spirits". "Death" here is "thanatos", which absolutely carries the meaning of "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell". Contrast this with James 2:26, where "spirit" is "pneuma", and "death" is "nekros"...

"2Jn2:8-9 " In verse 8 it is talking about working in christ. In verse 9 he is switching topics
in a way. He isn't refering to the same people. Still again no mention of loosing salvation.
On..on a side not, 2nd John only has one chapter so I asuumed you ment 1:8-9 and not
2:8-9.

Yes I meant chapter 1. No mention of "losing salvation"? You believe you can have salvation "but not have God"? Not according to 1Jn5:12. And to say that he "switched topics" between the two sentences, is exactly the argument that Jehovah's Witnesses use to answer Thomas's declaration, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" Jn20:28 JWs have you believe he was calling Jesus "LORD" and Jehovah "GOD". Doesn't work in context. Some groups think Jesus "jumped context" in Jn3:5, to indicate "water-baptism". But contextually, it says: "Water/flesh", and "spirit/Spirit"...

"And Heb 6, "It is impossible to restore them to repentance WHILE THEY ARE FALLING
AWAY"

Yes but as 1 John puts it, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin'the
one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We sin,
but they are forgiven already, it was taken care of at the cross. We cannot loose our
salvation once we have it.

You're obviously quoting from 1Jn5, especially verse 18. You have neglected to read the first of that chapter. "WHoever believes Jesus is born of God. Whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe (do) His commandments. ....(4) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that has overcome the world, OUR FAITH. And who is the one who overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" He who is born of God, is he who BELIEVES. Is there any verse that says one cannot stop believing? No.

I have written a book, intended for publishing on "OSAS". I cite Scripture after Scripture. But it seems that some people will not believe the very words of the Bible. As we have just seen here---very clear meanings, total denial. Is it ME that has misunderstood? I do not think so. A good case can be made for OSAS with some specific Scriptures, like the ones that seem to say "predestined-election"; but when the Bible is taken in its entirity, OSAS just is not there. "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (faith) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works lest anyone boast". Is that what Ephesians 2 says? "Faith-unto-salvation is a unilateral gift from God? The prepositional phrase is, "DIA PISTIS". Through faith. What is the subject of the sentence? The subject, is "God's free gift of grace". The three phrases ("<subject> through faith", "<subject> not of yourselves", and "<subject> not as a result of works"), all modify the one subject, "God's free gift of grace". There is only one way to read this: "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (grace) is not of yourselves, it is the free gift of God". Otherwise, Paul would be contradicting himself when he says in Rom10:17, "Faith comes by HEARING (the word of God)". And Peter, in 1:1:9, "obtaining as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls"!

The subject of this post, is "what is salvation?" This is really the heart of our discussion. Can one who says "the sinner's prayer" be saved? Yes. Can one who says "the sinner's prayer" NOT be saved? Yes. Salvation is a state of HEART. In a nutshell, salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus. 1Jn1:6 Which is, identically, "born again", which is identically "abiding in Jesus and His teachings". So that we see that salvation is not a work or works, and it is certainly not a one-time-event.

Salvation is a life-long-walk.

And it is very possible to "NOT abide in Him, and fall from salvation". I shall post more Scriptures if anyone wishes; I would ask, that he who supports "OSAS" strive to contradict the points I make, Scripturally, just as I have striven to support them, Scripturally. Do we not agree that the Bible is inspired by God, and "all Scripture is GOD-BREATHED, and suitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thorougly equipped for every good work"? 2Tim3

 

[ZoneChaos]

This is continued in OSAS Part II

 

[SenseiPiccolo]

If you were given a free gift that would make you rich beyond measure-- would you not accept the free gift?
Now if a free gift is free it can never be taken back-- other wise it would have never been free--
Salvation is a free gift from God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Debbie]

oNCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED IS NOT BIBLICAL. the excuse that believers of this theory(OSAS) use, is that "well they really wernt saved in the first place. Well thats the only way way they can understand it. I agree it's hard to imagine, but because you can't imagine it, don't misinterpret scripture.

What happened to Solomon? Was he never saved?

what is meant by the scripture,"A divided house will never stand." ? "You cannot serve 2 masters" ?
LUke 8 gives an example of 3 types of Christians that are saved. Not all make it to heaven.
Matthew 15 describes in detail how a saved person becomes "DEFILED". This word taken from original translation means to "make unclean" or "pollute". POllute means to dirty up something which was once clean. Defiled means someone who was once saved, pollutes themselves or makes themsleves unclean. Thus, once saved always saved cannot be true. \\
WHat about the scriptures where men said to Jesus that ,"LOrd we have cast out demons in your name and prophesied" and Jesus said, "I dont know you". HOw do you think they got the gift in the first place?
Explain the verse, acts 16:31-,"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus CHrist and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".(Acts 18:8 & Acts 11:14 also). Actually this means that if you believe in Biblical Jesus you are saved, & if you teach your children the same, they also will be saved. Ok, so children do believe their parents and are saved as the parent is for believing. Does this verse mean that we are going to heaven if we, after being saved become defiled? no. But I know people who don't worry about their children's sins because of this verse. They have faith that they and their children are going to heaven because of this verse, regardless of the sins of their kids. God is a soverign God, and he cannot be manipulated by anyone's "name it & claim it formula." Certain sins will defile us, & the ot refers to such as becoming confused.
I realize that it is hard for a saved person to understand how anyone who is saved could commit these sins, but it does happen & Jesus discusses it in SCripture. Being saved is a guarantee of everlasting life, unless of course, the saved no longer desire that Christ be on their throne of everday life. It is that person's choice, not God going back on HIs word.

 

[edjones]

Why Can't A Person Have The Present Assurance Of Eternal Salvation?

When I speak of eternal salvation, I mean, if saved, you are for eternity. A person is not saved today and lost tomorrow. If so he doesn't have eternal life, but one day of life.

[1]. The saved person has been born of God (1 Jn. 1:13; 3:8). No where does the Bible speak of being born the third time.
[2]. When we become sons of God we are adopted into the family of God (Eph. 1:4-5).

[3]. All children of God are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:16-17).

[4]. The saved person is kept by the power of God through faith (1 Pet. 1:4-5).

[5]. The truly saved person is secure because his hope is within the veil, the priestly work of Christ (Heb. 6:19).

[6]. The believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13).

[7]. The saved are kept in the hands of the Father and the Son (Jn. 10). Thus the believer is just as secure as the Lord is strong. Since He is Almighty, the saved person is absolutely secure. Hence, we know that all who are really saved are saved forever.


Are you resting in the Power of God?












An old Scotch lady lay dying. Her minister, wishing to try her faith, said, "Janet, what would you say if, after all He has done for you, God should let you perish?" She replied: "Even as He likes, if He does, He will lose more than I will, for I would lose my soul, but He would lose his honor, for His Word would be broken."

 

[Debbie]

Yes I rest in the assurance that I am saved for eternity. But you cannot pick out the verses which apply to your thinking & ignore the verses I mentioned which do not fit into your thinking. What is your explanation of the chapters & verses I mentioned? You posed nothing.

"BALANCE" is important when making an interpretation, yes your interpretation of those verses are correct in that salvation is assured. Also, I am correct in interpreting the verses & chapters I mentioned, in that a saved human being sometimes CHOOSES to defile himself. We are not robots. God did't take away our free will & liberty when He gave us salvation.

 

[edjones]

If you say 'you' can get out of salvation, how can you get It back after you get out of it?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.