Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

I already answered that, and just because I didn't allow you to make it appear that's all I rely on, does not mean I didn't answer. I rely on the whole plan of salvation, what you mention there, as in obeying God (that's your answer flat out and witnessed) as well as accepting his grace to forgive when I do not obey, just as he says he will forgive.

Your turn.

What must you do to become a Christian?
Surrender your life to Christ.
Would you agree?

The law God desires you to keep is then placed on your heart, meaning you in your heart want to obey it. So you want to obey that law. So you know you should obey it.
However, victory over sin hinges, according to Paul in knowing you are not under a law of righteousness
Therefore, the christian in their heart wants to obey, so they obviously know they should obey, but they do not rely on obeying the law to attain heaven. They rely on what Christ did for them at Calvary

 

[Aldebaran]

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, it is believing in everything He taught and commanded of us. For if you believe in a Jesus that told you to jump off a bridge, then that would be another Jesus. If you believe in a Jesus that told you to not obey Him, then I would say that would be another Jesus (Because Jesus always told us to obey Him and not to disobey Him). For Jesus said, if you love me, keep my Commandments. He said if you are my friends, do whatsoever I command you.

Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?

Could you explain to me where being saved by grace through faith as a gift from God comes into play? Ephesians 2:8

 

[Kenny'sID]

The Ten Commandments are not the proper list of sins about which Christians ought to be concerned. The list given twice on the last two pages of Revelation are the sins that will result in failure at final judgment.

Of course they are, and they have and always will be inflexible. What's flexible is the the way God handles forgiveness in the new covenant.

Even in the old covenant there was flexibility in that regard, just sacrifice something. The new covenant is even more flexible, as in we aren't put to death for many of the things as in the past, and Christ took care of that nasty little inconvenience of having to kill animals...thank God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What must you do to become a Christian?
Surrender your life to Christ.
Would you agree?

The law God desires you to keep is then placed on your heart, meaning you in your heart want to obey it. So you want to obey that law. So you know you should obey it.
However, victory over sin hinges, according to Paul in knowing you are not under a law of righteousness
Therefore, the christian in their heart wants to obey, so they obviously know they should obey, but they do not rely on obeying the law to attain heaven. They rely on what Christ did for them at Calvary

Your doing a dance I've seen many times. Does one need to obey the laws written in their hearts in order to obtain salvation, or can they do as they want, meaning not obey those laws, and still obtain salvation?

I gave you the yes or no that you demanded from me, might you pay me the same respect?

 

[Vicomte13]

Of course they are, and they have and always will be inflexible.

They always will be inflexible, but they obviously do not apply to anybody but Hebrews. The Scripture says so, overtly, from the mouth of God, even as YHWH is giving the terms of the Sinai Covenant.

You're not bound by the terms of a contract to which you are not a party. "Covenant" is an old French-Latin term for "contract". The Sinai Contract was between God and the Hebrews there, not God and the world. The Ten Commandments are among its terms. They never applied to anybody else, either before or after Christ.

God separately gave the law against murder long before Sinai. God's interaction with the wider world isn't told in the Old Testament after the introduction of Abraham in Genesis.

Nobody (including the Jews) are still under the Sinai Covenant (it cannot be obeyed anymore even if one wants to). We ARE all under the Law of Jesus. YHWH said "This is my beloved son, listen to him", and Jesus gave a new set of laws, different laws. The list of offenses that will get a man utterly damned (meaning: thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment) is given twice on the last two pages of Revelation. THAT is the list of commandments that Christians should be focused on. It's just as rigid as the Hebrew Commandments, but the difference is that it actually still APPLIES to everybody. The Ten Commandments never applied to anybody but Jews before the destruction of the Second Temple. Now it doesn't even apply to them.

 

[Aldebaran]

Your doing a dance I've seen many times. Does one need to obey the laws written in their hearts in order to obtain salvation, or can they do as they want, meaning not obey those laws, and still obtain salvation?

I gave you the yes or no that you demanded from me, might you pay me the same respect?

Salvation is a gift from God, not something that we do or work for. We get it by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8

 

[stuart lawrence]

Your doing a dance I've seen many times. Does one need to obey the laws written in their hearts in order to obtain salvation, or can they do as they want, meaning not obey those laws, and still obtain salvation?

I gave you the yes or no that you demanded from me, might you pay me the same respect?

And you have been fully answered. Perhaps you didn't understand.
The core of the new covenant is:

I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
THEN HE ADDS
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

Because you have been supernaturally changed by the Holy Spirit who has entered your life and made you in your mind aware of how God wants you to live and in your heart brought the desire for obedience your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more.

If you say heaven hinges on obeying the law you must tear down the core foundation on which the new covenant stands.
The born again christian cannot happily sin without conscience for the law is on their heart. They can and do sin for none are perfect but when they do they are hit with a very bad conscience for they transgress what is on their heart.
The first part of the covenant removes the licence to sin

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Could you explain to me where being saved by grace through faith as a gift from God comes into play? Ephesians 2:8

Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of intial salvation or acceptance of the Lord. We are made right with God initally by believing in Jesus's death and resurrection and by seeking His forgiveness in prayer. We didn't have to work to be forgiven of our past sins when we first came to the Lord. Ephesians 2:10 is the part most people ignore afterwards, though. This is our continued walk with God or our continued salvation.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10).

That we SHOULD walk in them.
We are his workmanship. But he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10). He that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). For all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).

Also, gifts can be received, but if they are not taken care of in some way, they can be lost or destroyed. Jesus is our gift (John 3:16) (2 Corinthians 9:15). We allow Jesus to do the good work thru us (John 15:5). Good fruit is a testimony that Christ lives in us and we are not reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:50. So we cannot boast in our ourselves or in any good that we do. It is Jesus. He saves. He saves both in Justification and Sanctification.


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[Kenny'sID]

And you have been fully answered. Perhaps you didn't understand.
The core of the new covenant is:

I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
THEN HE ADDS
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

I read, understood and commented on just that already

If you say heaven hinges on obeying the law you must tear down the core foundation on which the new covenant stands.

Why you insist that is all we feel there is to it, when you have been told it is not, is beyond me. all I can figure is it somehow helps your case to misstate ours, and the only conclusion I can draw from that, is if you have to do that, you must not have much of a case.

Sounds harsh and I'm sorry but, you know what I've already told you, yet you persist, so I don't really know what else I can say but something that might jar you into seing what's going on here.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Your doing a dance I've seen many times. Does one need to obey the laws written in their hearts in order to obtain salvation, or can they do as they want, meaning not obey those laws, and still obtain salvation?

I gave you the yes or no that you demanded from me, might you pay me the same respect?

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

Sin is the transgression of the law1 john3:4

If you are condemned for failure to observe the law, you MUST be under a law of righteousness before God. Paul says you are not

 

[Aldebaran]

Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of intial salvation or acceptance of the Lord. We are made right with God initally by believing in Jesus's death and resurrection and by seeking His forgiveness in prayer. We didn't have to work to be forgiven of our past sins when we first came to the Lord. Ephesians 2:10 is the part most people ignore afterwards, though. This is our continued walk with God or our continued salvation.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10).

That we SHOULD walk in them.
We are his workmanship. But he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10). He that says he knows Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). All who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).


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Ok. Now can you tell me how this works with what Paul said in Roman 7:14--Romans 8:1? That's the passage where he talks about not doing what he knows he should do, but doesn't, and that Christ is the One who delivers us.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I read, understood and commented on just that already



Why you insist that is all we feel there is to it, when you have been told it is not, is beyond me. all I can figure is it somehow helps your case to misstate ours, and the only conclusion I can draw from that, is if you have to do that, you must not have much of a case.

Sounds harsh and I'm sorry but, you know what I've already told you, yet you persist, so I don't really know what else I can say but something that might jar you into seing what's going on here.

I see quite clearly what is going on. You have repeatedly stated PART of your salvation plan is relying on obeying the law.

That places you under a law of righteousness. And Paul stated all who rely on observing the law are under a curse.
Too uncomfortable to accept I know, hence your response to me

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't see the relationship between what I said and what you said.

It's simple. Jesus says we live by every Word of God that proceeds out of the mouth of God. This is is speaking of eternal life. Seeing, we preach Jesus with God's Word, we continue to have eternal life in Him by not being afraid to preach about Jesus to others. But if we refuse to preach Jesus than we are ashamed of Him and He will be ashamed of us in front of His father and His holy angels. So yes. We most definitely live every time we stand up and talk about Jesus by His Word whereby we are not ashamed of Him. For all the Scriptures are a testimony of Jesus Christ (John 5:39).


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[stuart lawrence]

I read, understood and commented on just that already



Why you insist that is all we feel there is to it, when you have been told it is not, is beyond me. all I can figure is it somehow helps your case to misstate ours, and the only conclusion I can draw from that, is if you have to do that, you must not have much of a case.

Sounds harsh and I'm sorry but, you know what I've already told you, yet you persist, so I don't really know what else I can say but something that might jar you into seing what's going on here.

Whether you say you in part or in whole rely on observing the law to receive salvation is immaterial.
You still rely on observing the law to attain to Heaven.
You are cursed if you rely on observing the law, in part, or whole

 

[Bible Highlighter]

True. It was contractual terms between Hebrews and YHWH.

The New Testament Law is the only law that anybody needs to worry about, if what he is aiming for is passing final judgment. Christians aren't Hebrews, and aren't part of that contract. But they ARE part of the New Covenant, which has completely new terms, most of which are different from the Old Testament Law.

Yes, Christians look to the New Testament and not the Old Testament to obey God.


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[stuart lawrence]

Yes, Christians look to the New Testament and not the Old Testament to obey God.


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Hmmmmmm

 

[Kenny'sID]

You are cursed if you rely on observing the law, in part, or whole

Personally, I will strive to obey the law, if I fail I will ask for forgiveness, and I will never tell myself I can do what I want and still be saved,. You have already told me I'm cursed so, not much use in my commenting on that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok. Now can you tell me how this works with what Paul said in Roman 7:14--Romans 8:1? That's the passage where he talks about not doing what he knows he should do, but doesn't, and that Christ is the One who delivers us.

In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is talking about his struggle with sin as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. In Romans 7:25 is where he switches back to talking as a Christian and he is thankful to God thru Jesus Christ that he can help him to deliver him from his body of death. Meaning, Jesus can help Paul to overcome sin (Whereas before he couldn't do it on his own as Pharisee who was concerned with Law salvationism). For Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 Paul says he is free from sin.

Paul says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

What is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? It is Romans 8:1 whereby we WALK after the Spirit in Christ Jesus so as not to be under the Condemnation. What is the law of sin and death? It is the Law of Moses.

Paul gives us the solution of overcoming sin with walking after the Spirit whereby we fulfill the righteous aspect part of the Law.

4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded isdeath; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:4-8).


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[stuart lawrence]

Personally, I will strive to obey the law, if I fail I will ask for forgiveness, and I will never tell myself I can do what I want and still be saved,. You have already told me I'm cursed so, not much use in my commenting on that.

No born again christian can tell themself they can do what they want!
The law got transferred from an external law to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts!

If you in your heart want to obey God it Is impossible at the same time to tell yourself you can do what you want

 

[stuart lawrence]

Personally, I will strive to obey the law, if I fail I will ask for forgiveness, and I will never tell myself I can do what I want and still be saved,. You have already told me I'm cursed so, not much use in my commenting on that.

Of course if you haven't been born again, if the law hadn't been placed on your heart, you would believe you can do what you want if you have no righteousness of observing the law.

Under those circumstances I would see what you mean

But only born again Christians can go to Heaven