Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[stuart lawrence]

Again, Paul is talking about the Old Testament Law and not all Law. This is clear according to the context if you were to read it more closely.
For if Paul was talking about all Law, then you could not rely on the Command or Law in 1 John 3:23.


...

Nonsense, it was one WHOLE law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Then how do you explain John 3:16?

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, it is believing in everything He taught and commanded of us. For if you believe in a Jesus that told you to jump off a bridge, then that would be another Jesus. If you believe in a Jesus that told you to not obey Him, then I would say that would be another Jesus (Because Jesus always told us to obey Him and not to disobey Him). For Jesus said, if you love me, keep my Commandments. He said if you are my friends, do whatsoever I command you.

Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?


...

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm not twisting anything.
Lets clarify then.

Do you rely on obeying the law to attain heaven?

The answer is yes or no

I'm sorry but as I said before, you don't get to ask all the questions and evade those posed to you. When that happens, it's easy to see whos' answering and who's evading, and a certain fact can be drawn from that.

None of your questions are tough to answer but in order to have a fair exchange here, we all need to join in equally.

So, once again, does the following mean those laws are to be obeyed or not:

I WILL write my laws on their minds and place them on their hearts

 

[stuart lawrence]

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, it is believing in everything He taught and commanded of us. For if you believe in a Jesus that told you to jump off a bridge, then that would be another Jesus. If you believe in a Jesus that told you to not obey Him, then I would say that would be another Jesus (Because Jesus always told us to obey Him and not to disobey Him). For Jesus said, if you love me, keep my Commandments. He said if you are my friends, do whatsoever I command you.

Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?


...

So Jesus is not your Lord and you don't love him unless you obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels?

Do you obey try hem all?

No fibbing, please

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm sorry but as I said before, you don't get to ask all the questions and evade those posed to you. When that happens, it's easy to see whos' answering and who's evading, and a certain fact can be drawn from that.

None of your questions are tough to answer but in order to have a fair exchange here, we all need to join in equally.

So, once again, does the following mean those laws are to be obeyed or not:

I have responded to the points you make in your posts. You have chosen to duck answering uf you rely on obeying the law to attain to heaven.
I can see why you don't now want to answer the question

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nonsense, it was one WHOLE law

In Galatians 3, Paul is talking about the word "law" in reference to the Law of Moses. Paul says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" The word "circumcision" appears 5 times in Galatians 2, as well.

Paul is clearly referencing the Old Law and not the New Law here.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

In Galatians 3, Paul is talking about the word "law" in reference to the Law of Moses. Paul says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ" The word "circumcision" appears 5 times in Galatians 2, as well.

Paul is clearly referencing the Old Law and not the New Law here.


...

Paul is referring to all the OT law, including the ten commandments. Do you now accept this? You didn't previously

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Jesus is not your Lord and you don't love him unless you obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels?

Do you obey try hem all?

No fibbing, please

Did Jesus say every command?
That is something you are adding.
Granted, it is also our intent to want to obey all of what Jesus commanded of us because He is our Lord and we are not our own lords doing whatever we please. For we are bought and paid for with a price. We are slaves to righteousness and not slaves to sin. For Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin.


...

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have responded to the points you make in your posts. You have chosen to duck answering uf you rely on obeying the law to attain to heaven.
I can see why you don't now want to answer the question

Yet you still do not answer yet you continually expert answers.

OK, so let me try this from a different angle, why are you afraid to answer that?

 

[Aldebaran]

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, it is believing in everything He taught and commanded of us. For if you believe in a Jesus that told you to jump off a bridge, then that would be another Jesus. If you believe in a Jesus that told you to not obey Him, then I would say that would be another Jesus (Because Jesus always told us to obey Him and not to disobey Him). For Jesus said, if you love me, keep my Commandments. He said if you are my friends, do whatsoever I command you.

Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?


...

Then what about this? "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name". John 1:12

I'd like to point out that there were "percursors" of Jesus in the OT that help to indicate what He did for us and what we have to do in response. The lamb that was sacrificed for sins. The spreading of blood on the doorposts in Egypt. The looking upon the serpent on the pole in the wilderness. These things don't speak of an obedience or total adherence to a law.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yet you still do not answer yet you continually expert answers.

OK, so let me try this from a different angle, why are you afraid to answer that?

Answer if we should obey Gods laws?

I will answer that if you promise to then tell me if you rely on obeying the law to attain to heaven.

Do you agree in front of witnesses?

 

[Aldebaran]

Did Jesus say every command?
That is something you are adding.

He did quote that man doesn't live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul is referring to all the OT law, including the ten commandments. Do you now accept this? You didn't previously

I never changed my position on Paul referencing the Old Law when he mentions the word "law" many times. Granted, Paul has made reference to New Covenant Law, as well, though. But these are clearly defined. As I said before, there is the Law of Christ, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Also, the Law is more than just the 10 Commandments.
Please stop stating that the Law is just the 10 Commandments.
That is not what the Jews believed nor is it what the Word of God says.
There are 613 Commands in the OT. But believers today look to the NT and not the OT to obey God, though.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He did quote that man doesn't live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Yes. For if we are ashamed of Jesus (Which would be by His Word or words), then he will be ashamed of us in front of his father and his holy angels.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I never changed my position on Paul referencing the Old Law when he mentions the word "law" many times. Granted, Paul has made reference to New Covenant Law, as well, though. But these are clearly defined. As I said before, there is the Law of Christ, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Also, the Law is more than just the 10 Commandments.
Please stop stating that the Law is just the 10 Commandments.
That is not what the Jews believed nor is it what the Word of God says.
There are 613 Commands in the OT. But believers today look to the NT and not the OT to obey God, though.

...

You previously told me gal3:10&11 does not include the Te commandments. Do you still believe that?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I will answer that if you promise to then tell me if you rely on obeying the law to attain to heaven.

I already answered that, and just because I didn't allow you to make it appear that's all I rely on, does not mean I didn't answer. I rely on the whole plan of salvation, what you mention there, as in obeying God (that's your answer flat out and witnessed) as well as accepting his grace to forgive when I do not obey, just as he says he will forgive.

Your turn.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes. For if we are ashamed of Jesus (Which would be by His Word or words), then he will be ashamed of us in front of his father and his holy angels.


...

I don't see the relationship between what I said and what you said.

 

[Vicomte13]

The Ten Commandments are an inflexible law. There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to them that will entitle you to enter heaven. Perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them. There is nothing in those commands that speak of mercy or forgiveness

Actually, the Ten Commandments are part of a contract, between the Hebrews at Mt. Sinai (and their lineal, circumcised heirs dwelling in the land of Israel) and YHWH.

They are not a law for mankind as such (though they do touch upon some of God's laws for all of mankind).

They are inflexible contract terms, and they applied to the narrow set of humanity under that contract. Gentiles were not part of the contract, and Jesus did not make them part of the contract. Jesus offered a NEW contract, with new terms. Some of those terms include some of the Ten Commandments, but not all of them (you are not thrown into the Lake of Fire for coveting, stealing or failure to observe the sabbath, or failing to honor mother and father, for example), and things that the Ten Commandments don't mention are grounds for failing final judgment (lying in general (not simply perjury), cowardice, being "filthy", being a "dog", peddling mind-altering drugs ("pharmakeia").

The Ten Commandments are not the proper list of sins about which Christians ought to be concerned. The list given twice on the last two pages of Revelation are the sins that will result in failure at final judgment.

 

[Vicomte13]

The Old Testament Law was not just .... some law.
....

True. It was contractual terms between Hebrews and YHWH.

The New Testament Law is the only law that anybody needs to worry about, if what he is aiming for is passing final judgment. Christians aren't Hebrews, and aren't part of that contract. But they ARE part of the New Covenant, which has completely new terms, most of which are different from the Old Testament Law.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I already answered that, and just because I didn't allow you to make it appear that's all I rely on, does not mean I didn't answer. I rely on the whole plan of salvation, what you mention there, as in obeying God (that's your answer flat out and witnessed) as well as accepting his grace to forgive when I do not obey, just as he says he will forgive.

Your turn.

Fine. So if part of your plan for salvation is obeying the law, you MUST rely on obeying the law for salvation
Paul states you are CURSED if you rely on obeying the law. Doesn't matter if you say that is only part of your salvation plan. You still RELY on observing the law. According to Paul you are cursed.
I will write another post to address your point