Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[Vicomte13]

Why does it always go to one extreme or the other?

Because people today just read the words "the law" when Paul says them, and think they mean ANY law. But Paul was saying The Law - Torah - the Hebrew Covenant. He was a Pharisee, a Jewish Lawyer. When HE says "The Law" in all of his writings, he does not mean simply "law", and he does not mean Roman Law, or the precepts of Christ. He only means the mitzvot of THE Law - the Torah. THE Law, to Jews, was the Torah.

So, every time you read Paul speaking of being "under THE Law", or "not under THE Law", to understand what he means, you have to read it the way he would have said it: Torah.

The Torah contains the covenant between YHWH and the Hebrews. It is the Law Book of THE Law, to Jews. The Apostles and most early Christians were all Jews. Paul was a Jewish lawyer. He started out in each new town in the synagogues, and aimed at Jews first, then Gentiles.

When he says "The Law", that we're not under, he's a Jewish Lawyer speaking of The Law - the Torah - that he and other converts are not under, because of Christ. He is saying: you will not be getting blessings by trying to follow the Law of Moses. Eating pork, or not, isn't going to make a difference. Keeping the Sabbath won't make a difference. But because The Law, which is The Law of the Jews, is so complicated and long, and can only be carried out with various rituals, including going to Jerusalem three times a year, etc., there was no possibility of following it ANYWAY. Gentiles could not follow it. Neither could Jews outside of Israel. And IN Israel, they DIDN'T follow all of it - they would not forgive debts in the seventh year, release slaves, do all of the social requirements.

Paul was saying, very clearly, that to come to Christ by trying to follow The Torah - which what The Law means - is a dead end. You can't do it. If you put yourself under it, you're signing the contract of Sinai, and God will hold you accountable for it - and you'll fail.

You have to follow Jesus instead. Now, Jesus actually did give commandments, and those ARE law, but they are not THE Law. Christians who don't keep Jesus' commandments against lying, killing, idolatry, sexual immorality, cowardice, pharmakeia (mind-altering drug and charm peddling), unbelief, and being dirty dogs, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment UNLESS they follow Jesus' law of forgiveness of sin, which is that God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive the sins of others committed against you. If you forgive everything, you will be forgiven everything. If you don't, you won't be. You will be measured by the yardstick by which you measured others. THAT law is binding law and whoever refuses to follow the Law of Jesus, given in the sentence, will not pass final judgment and enter the City of God.

But that's not THE Law that Paul referred to. THE Law is the Hebrew Torah. And it is defunct. Including the Ten Commandments. Some of the Ten Commandments are in Jesus' list, but some aren't. Thieves are not thrown into the Lake of Fire for stealing, for example. And Jesus gave no sabbath law, so nobody fails final judgment for sabbath-breaking either. Jesus said that those who follow them will frequently have to leave their mother and father, so the commandment to honor parents is not in force either. The Law of Jesus is DIFFERENT from The Law. And the Law of Jesus is what you're judged on at the end, not The Law.

Trouble is, most modern Christians elide "THE Law" (meaning the Torah) into "law", and read Paul as saying that Christians are not under law. Which is absolutely ridiculous and sad.

When this is pointed out, far too many Christians fight about it, claiming "Scripture". But the above actually IS Scripture. THE Law is the Torah, not simply law. The article "THE" there is actually highly significant. It designates the JEWISH Law, not all law generically. It's a very important distinction.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, and WHATEVER OTHER COMMANDMENT there might be are summed up I this one rule. Love your neighbour as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
Rom13:9&10

 

[stuart lawrence]

When my mother whom I dearly loved was diagnosed terminally ill with cancer, my wife and i went to look after her in her home for three months during her illness.
During this time I remember thinking, I was living closer to the biblical ideal than I ever had previously. I put aside my own wants and desires for my mothers. I lived to see her happy. My greatest pleasure was taking her to see her friends and bringing them to see her as This meant so much to her. I didn't covet what was hers, want to steal from her, murder her, or bear false witness against her, and i honoured her. Nothing was too much to do for her.
Why did i act This way? Did I concentrate on any law and strove to obey it? No, I never once thought of any law concerning my mother. I acted that way because I loved her dearly.

Love really does fulfill the law.

I would say, if you are having to look to the letter of commandments and striving to obey them, the more you feel the need to do this, the further away you are from loving as you should

 

[stuart lawrence]

Because people today just read the words "the law" when Paul says them, and think they mean ANY law. But Paul was saying The Law - Torah - the Hebrew Covenant. He was a Pharisee, a Jewish Lawyer. When HE says "The Law" in all of his writings, he does not mean simply "law", and he does not mean Roman Law, or the precepts of Christ. He only means the mitzvot of THE Law - the Torah. THE Law, to Jews, was the Torah.

So, every time you read Paul speaking of being "under THE Law", or "not under THE Law", to understand what he means, you have to read it the way he would have said it: Torah.

The Torah contains the covenant between YHWH and the Hebrews. It is the Law Book of THE Law, to Jews. The Apostles and most early Christians were all Jews. Paul was a Jewish lawyer. He started out in each new town in the synagogues, and aimed at Jews first, then Gentiles.

When he says "The Law", that we're not under, he's a Jewish Lawyer speaking of The Law - the Torah - that he and other converts are not under, because of Christ. He is saying: you will not be getting blessings by trying to follow the Law of Moses. Eating pork, or not, isn't going to make a difference. Keeping the Sabbath won't make a difference. But because The Law, which is The Law of the Jews, is so complicated and long, and can only be carried out with various rituals, including going to Jerusalem three times a year, etc., there was no possibility of following it ANYWAY. Gentiles could not follow it. Neither could Jews outside of Israel. And IN Israel, they DIDN'T follow all of it - they would not forgive debts in the seventh year, release slaves, do all of the social requirements.

Paul was saying, very clearly, that to come to Christ by trying to follow The Torah - which what The Law means - is a dead end. You can't do it. If you put yourself under it, you're signing the contract of Sinai, and God will hold you accountable for it - and you'll fail.

You have to follow Jesus instead. Now, Jesus actually did give commandments, and those ARE law, but they are not THE Law. Christians who don't keep Jesus' commandments against lying, killing, idolatry, sexual immorality, cowardice, pharmakeia (mind-altering drug and charm peddling), unbelief, and being dirty dogs, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment UNLESS they follow Jesus' law of forgiveness of sin, which is that God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive the sins of others committed against you. If you forgive everything, you will be forgiven everything. If you don't, you won't be. You will be measured by the yardstick by which you measured others. THAT law is binding law and whoever refuses to follow the Law of Jesus, given in the sentence, will not pass final judgment and enter the City of God.

But that's not THE Law that Paul referred to. THE Law is the Hebrew Torah. And it is defunct. Including the Ten Commandments. Some of the Ten Commandments are in Jesus' list, but some aren't. Thieves are not thrown into the Lake of Fire for stealing, for example. And Jesus gave no sabbath law, so nobody fails final judgment for sabbath-breaking either. Jesus said that those who follow them will frequently have to leave their mother and father, so the commandment to honor parents is not in force either. The Law of Jesus is DIFFERENT from The Law. And the Law of Jesus is what you're judged on at the end, not The Law.

Trouble is, most modern Christians elide "THE Law" (meaning the Torah) into "law", and read Paul as saying that Christians are not under law. Which is absolutely ridiculous and sad.

When this is pointed out, far too many Christians fight about it, claiming "Scripture". But the above actually IS Scripture. THE Law is the Torah, not simply law. The article "THE" there is actually highly significant. It designates the JEWISH Law, not all law generically. It's a very important distinction.

Lets take if you are sexually immoral you will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Would you say this includes lusting on the inside, or only actually sleeping with women? I think we would agree, Jesus would include lusting on the inside wouldn't he.
Paul's gospel message isn't simple to understand. Impossible without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
It all centered around, at its core:
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Indeed, when Paul earnestly strove to attain heaven under a law of righteousness, he said he became full of all manner of concupiscence. The same thing happened to me. It also happens to so many today who go to church and earnestly strive to be good enough for God under the law.
Indeed, I know of christian counsellors who spend much time with people who have gone to church, earnestly tried to obey the law to attain heaven and ended up consumed by lust.
Then there is the Pharisees. No one strove more earnestly than they under the law to attain heaven. What was the result? They became full of wickedness, hypocrisy and EVERYTHING UNCLEAN on the inside.

So Paul's central message seems to be proved so true from NT times till now.
The harder you strive under the law to attain to heaven the more corrupted you become on the inside.
Only by dying to the law/ not being under it shall sin not be your master

I would say, bearing all This in mind, if a person went to church and was told they would be thrown into the lake of fire if they were sexually immoral, that may well bring them also to end up full of all manner of concupiscence

 

[stuart lawrence]

Because people today just read the words "the law" when Paul says them, and think they mean ANY law. But Paul was saying The Law - Torah - the Hebrew Covenant. He was a Pharisee, a Jewish Lawyer. When HE says "The Law" in all of his writings, he does not mean simply "law", and he does not mean Roman Law, or the precepts of Christ. He only means the mitzvot of THE Law - the Torah. THE Law, to Jews, was the Torah.

So, every time you read Paul speaking of being "under THE Law", or "not under THE Law", to understand what he means, you have to read it the way he would have said it: Torah.

The Torah contains the covenant between YHWH and the Hebrews. It is the Law Book of THE Law, to Jews. The Apostles and most early Christians were all Jews. Paul was a Jewish lawyer. He started out in each new town in the synagogues, and aimed at Jews first, then Gentiles.

When he says "The Law", that we're not under, he's a Jewish Lawyer speaking of The Law - the Torah - that he and other converts are not under, because of Christ. He is saying: you will not be getting blessings by trying to follow the Law of Moses. Eating pork, or not, isn't going to make a difference. Keeping the Sabbath won't make a difference. But because The Law, which is The Law of the Jews, is so complicated and long, and can only be carried out with various rituals, including going to Jerusalem three times a year, etc., there was no possibility of following it ANYWAY. Gentiles could not follow it. Neither could Jews outside of Israel. And IN Israel, they DIDN'T follow all of it - they would not forgive debts in the seventh year, release slaves, do all of the social requirements.

Paul was saying, very clearly, that to come to Christ by trying to follow The Torah - which what The Law means - is a dead end. You can't do it. If you put yourself under it, you're signing the contract of Sinai, and God will hold you accountable for it - and you'll fail.

You have to follow Jesus instead. Now, Jesus actually did give commandments, and those ARE law, but they are not THE Law. Christians who don't keep Jesus' commandments against lying, killing, idolatry, sexual immorality, cowardice, pharmakeia (mind-altering drug and charm peddling), unbelief, and being dirty dogs, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment UNLESS they follow Jesus' law of forgiveness of sin, which is that God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive the sins of others committed against you. If you forgive everything, you will be forgiven everything. If you don't, you won't be. You will be measured by the yardstick by which you measured others. THAT law is binding law and whoever refuses to follow the Law of Jesus, given in the sentence, will not pass final judgment and enter the City of God.

But that's not THE Law that Paul referred to. THE Law is the Hebrew Torah. And it is defunct. Including the Ten Commandments. Some of the Ten Commandments are in Jesus' list, but some aren't. Thieves are not thrown into the Lake of Fire for stealing, for example. And Jesus gave no sabbath law, so nobody fails final judgment for sabbath-breaking either. Jesus said that those who follow them will frequently have to leave their mother and father, so the commandment to honor parents is not in force either. The Law of Jesus is DIFFERENT from The Law. And the Law of Jesus is what you're judged on at the end, not The Law.

Trouble is, most modern Christians elide "THE Law" (meaning the Torah) into "law", and read Paul as saying that Christians are not under law. Which is absolutely ridiculous and sad.

When this is pointed out, far too many Christians fight about it, claiming "Scripture". But the above actually IS Scripture. THE Law is the Torah, not simply law. The article "THE" there is actually highly significant. It designates the JEWISH Law, not all law generically. It's a very important distinction.

I have a theory, may I share it with you?
Paul tells us sinful passions are aroused in us by the law when we live under it( rom7:5)
Why?

Imagine someone who takes their Christianity extremely seriously. They are not play acting or half hearted. They earnestly believe they are under the law and must obey it to attain heaven and not be condemned.
How would such a person feel when a sinful thought came to them? What emotions would overcome them?
They would be nervous, worked up, agitated, overwrought, even panic stricken possibly. So every time a sinful thought came to them those emotions would come along with it. And this would result I sin being greatly manifested in them. Why?
Because those emotions are all dictionary definitions of the word EXCITE. The definition of panic stricken apart which is frenzy and the definition of frenzy is wild wxcitement
Every time a sinful thought came to such a person, huge excitement would overcome them simultaneously due to the emotions that came with the sinful thought. The result? They would end up swamped by lust I imagine.

There fear of the penalty of sin, brought them to be in a very aroused, or excited state at the thought of sin/ breaking Gods laws.
Therefore:

When we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bearing fruit for death.
Rom7:5
And of course therefore:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your doing as Stewy is...there is no lawometer, this is something you say I have, and it is not the truth.

Well when does God decide that they are going to hell? You are preaching that God does it. So you should be able to say when.

When does Jesus Christ give up on a free gift to His Children because of sin? When does Christ break "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU".

When does God who calls "His gifts IRREVOCABLE" take away His free gifts that He crucified His Precious Son for?

So I'd really like to know. Seriously.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Green Bay Packers won the Playoff Game!

Life is good today!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well when does God decide that they are going to hell? You are preaching that God does it. So you should be able to say when.

When does Jesus Christ give up on a free gift to His Children because of sin? When does Christ break "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU".

When does God who calls "His gifts IRREVOCABLE" take away His free gifts that He crucified His Precious Son for?

So I'd really like to know. Seriously.

If sin can condemn you, you must be under a law of righteousness, for sin is the transgression of the law 1 john3:4

 

[Vicomte13]

I have a theory, may I share it with you?
Paul tells us sinful passions are aroused in us by the law when we live under it( rom7:5)
Why?

Imagine someone who takes their Christianity extremely seriously. They are not play acting or half hearted. They earnestly believe they are under the law and must obey it to attain heaven and not be condemned.
How would such a person feel when a sinful thought came to them? What emotions would overcome them?
They would be nervous, worked up, agitated, overwrought, even panic stricken possibly. So every time a sinful thought came to them those emotions would come along with it. And this would result I sin being greatly manifested in them. Why?
Because those emotions are all dictionary definitions of the word EXCITE. The definition of panic stricken apart which is frenzy and the definition of frenzy is wild wxcitement
Every time a sinful thought came to such a person, huge excitement would overcome them simultaneously due to the emotions that came with the sinful thought. The result? They would end up swamped by lust I imagine.

There fear of the penalty of sin, brought them to be in a very aroused, or excited state at the thought of sin/ breaking Gods laws.
Therefore:

When we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bearing fruit for death.
Rom7:5
And of course therefore:

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

That's a good theory. Now, to make it perfect, you have to stop looking in the Old Testament for the law. The Law, to Paul, The Law of Moses, was what any Jew had to contend with and think about. There IS a law in the Bible for us. It is not The Law (referred to by Paul) - it is not the Law of Sinai, of Moses. It is the law of Jesus. If you don't want to use the word "law" because the distinction between "law" and "THE Law" is too hard to keep track of, call the law of Jesus The Commandments of Jesus.

Stop spending time on the Old Testament Law, because it is useless to you. Instead, read carefully the words of Jesus - JUST Jesus, because Jesus is the only incarnation of God, and Jesus is the one of whom the Father said twice from Heaven, aloud to the crowds "This is my beloved son, listen to him." Read Jesus' own words. They only appear in the Gospels, in the first few chapters of Acts, and throughout Revelation.

Paul only directly quotes Jesus one time in all of his writings.

Read Jesus, and read him for commandments, for rules, for precepts - things HE says that you have to do. Forget Moses - Moses is not your lawgiver. And Paul tells you that listening to Moses' Law and trying to follow it will avail you nothing - even gain a curse. That's not the law. But Jesus' commandments ARE the law - for you and me and everybody now.

So, carefully learn THAT law. For example, there is all sorts of conflict about forgiveness, and people are always quoting Paul. But Jesus said explicitly what GOD requires to forgive your sins: you have to forgive other men their sins against you. This is not what Paul says, ever. It's not what anybody says. But JESUS says it, clearly - and JESUS is God - so actually, by the authority of God, THAT is what you have to do to be forgiven your sins (and not some other thing, because Jesus didn't say some other thing).

Take the time to just read Jesus, just Jesus. Highlight his words. They are full of precepts and commandments. THAT is your law. THAT is what should be focused on. Not the Torah's laws or the Ten Commandments. "This is my beloved son - listen to HIM."

"What good does it do you to say that you follow me if you don't keep my commandments?" - Jesus

 

[stuart lawrence]

That's a good theory. Now, to make it perfect, you have to stop looking in the Old Testament for the law. The Law, to Paul, The Law of Moses, was what any Jew had to contend with and think about. There IS a law in the Bible for us. It is not The Law (referred to by Paul) - it is not the Law of Sinai, of Moses. It is the law of Jesus. If you don't want to use the word "law" because the distinction between "law" and "THE Law" is too hard to keep track of, call the law of Jesus The Commandments of Jesus.

Stop spending time on the Old Testament Law, because it is useless to you. Instead, read carefully the words of Jesus - JUST Jesus, because Jesus is the only incarnation of God, and Jesus is the one of whom the Father said twice from Heaven, aloud to the crowds "This is my beloved son, listen to him." Read Jesus' own words. They only appear in the Gospels, in the first few chapters of Acts, and throughout Revelation.

Paul only directly quotes Jesus one time in all of his writings.

Read Jesus, and read him for commandments, for rules, for precepts - things HE says that you have to do. Forget Moses - Moses is not your lawgiver. And Paul tells you that listening to Moses' Law and trying to follow it will avail you nothing - even gain a curse. That's not the law. But Jesus' commandments ARE the law - for you and me and everybody now.

So, carefully learn THAT law. For example, there is all sorts of conflict about forgiveness, and people are always quoting Paul. But Jesus said explicitly what GOD requires to forgive your sins: you have to forgive other men their sins against you. This is not what Paul says, ever. It's not what anybody says. But JESUS says it, clearly - and JESUS is God - so actually, by the authority of God, THAT is what you have to do to be forgiven your sins (and not some other thing, because Jesus didn't say some other thing).

Take the time to just read Jesus, just Jesus. Highlight his words. They are full of precepts and commandments. THAT is your law. THAT is what should be focused on. Not the Torah's laws or the Ten Commandments. "This is my beloved son - listen to HIM."

"What good does it do you to say that you follow me if you don't keep my commandments?" - Jesus

Why would you think I am looking to OT law, or I would need to learn the applicable law?
The applicable law is written on your mind and placed on your heart under the new covenant. You don't have to learn it or look to the OT to know it, it is in your mind already and on your heart.
If it was a good theory, it would be true for anyone believing they will be thrown into the lake of fire if they are sexually immoral wouldn't it?

 

[Vicomte13]

Lets take if you are sexually immoral you will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Would you say this includes lusting on the inside, or only actually sleeping with women? I think we would agree, Jesus would include lusting on the inside wouldn't he.
Paul's gospel message isn't simple to understand. Impossible without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
It all centered around, at its core:
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

Indeed, when Paul earnestly strove to attain heaven under a law of righteousness, he said he became full of all manner of concupiscence. The same thing happened to me. It also happens to so many today who go to church and earnestly strive to be good enough for God under the law.
Indeed, I know of christian counsellors who spend much time with people who have gone to church, earnestly tried to obey the law to attain heaven and ended up consumed by lust.
Then there is the Pharisees. No one strove more earnestly than they under the law to attain heaven. What was the result? They became full of wickedness, hypocrisy and EVERYTHING UNCLEAN on the inside.

So Paul's central message seems to be proved so true from NT times till now.
The harder you strive under the law to attain to heaven the more corrupted you become on the inside.
Only by dying to the law/ not being under it shall sin not be your master

I would say, bearing all This in mind, if a person went to church and was told they would be thrown into the lake of fire if they were sexually immoral, that may well bring them also to end up full of all manner of concupiscence

Now, let me take this and apply Jesus, just Jesus. I ignore Paul, because he is not God, and didn't give the answer. But Jesus did.
Yes, lusting after women, or men, and sleeping with either, unmarried (or the same sex, whether married or not) - all sexual immorality - all of it deadly sin, on Jesus list for the Lake of Fire.

What to DO.

Well, you could think that Paul has said that Jesus' crucifixion takes care of that for you, if you believe in him, but Jesus didn't say that.

So we ignore Paul and look at Jesus. In the parable of the unforgiving servant, Jesus concluded by saying that you will be forgiven your sins by God only to the extent that you forgive other men their sins against you. You will be measured by the yardstick by which you were measured.

So, if you listen to Paul, you're going to perhaps just think that all you have to do is believe that Jesus was the Son of God, crucified for your sake, and that you are covered.

But if you think that, you are ignoring Jesus - the Jesus who said "What good does it do you to say that you follow me if you don't keep my commandments?"

If you listen to Jesus, your sexual immorality will doom you to the lake of fire unless you are forgiven, and God will forgive you - if, and only if, and only to the extent that, you forgive other men their sins against you.

So, if you listen to Paul but DON'T forgive, Jesus' death did not forgive you your sins, because you didn't REALLY believe Jesus, because you didn't keep his commandment by forgiving other men their sins against you.

If you just listened to Jesus and focused on him, you would have gotten it right all along.

Paul is wonderful - BUT Paul is not God, and his words are not law, and what he says does not have the same authority as Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God, and the designated lawgiver by the Father ("Listen to HIM"). If your doctrine ignores something Jesus said, it's wrong.

Any man who just reads Jesus, carefully, and listens to what HE says, and keeps it, trust's Jesus ("faith" is the word "trust"), is following Jesus, and will pass final judgment if he does what Jesus said.

Anybody who does it a different way, if that different ways ignores the important commandments of Jesus, is not following Jesus, is not trusting Jesus, and is in jeopardy, but may believe - like the self-righteous Pharisee - that he is right.

Peter spoke truly: Paul is Scripture, but he is difficult to understand, and is twisted by many to their own destruction. The place to start and end is Jesus. One must thoroughly know Jesus, and take THAT as the ironclad law that it is, and only THEN read Paul, and see where Paul seems to contradict Jesus, and then understand that Paul is merely focusing on a specific aspect of things, but not giving the complete picture. Paul has no authority to override Jesus. He is too often read as though he does. That's a grave error.

Learn first the law of Jesus, just Jesus. THEN you have the foundation to be able to understand and deal with Paul. Paul does not mention that if you don't forgive other men their sins against you, God won't forgive you. That's not part of his doctrine. His doctrine is incomplete. Jesus said that, and Jesus is God, so the forgiveness of others is required for salvation - without it, you cannot be forgiven your sins, and you cannot pass final judgment.

 

[Vicomte13]

Why would you think I am looking to OT law, or I would need to learn the applicable law?
The applicable law is written on your mind and placed on your heart under the new covenant. You don't have to learn it or look to the OT to know it, it is in your mind already and on your heart.
If it was a good theory, it would be true for anyone believing they will be thrown into the lake of fire if they are sexually immoral wouldn't it?

Alright then - you agree - the Born Again Christian who does not forgive other men their sins against him, is not forgiven his sins by God, and will not pass final judgment. Jesus made that explicitly clear. That wasn't clearly written on MY heart. I had to learn it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Now, let me take this and apply Jesus, just Jesus. I ignore Paul, because he is not God, and didn't give the answer. But Jesus did.
Yes, lusting after women, or men, and sleeping with either, unmarried (or the same sex, whether married or not) - all sexual immorality - all of it deadly sin, on Jesus list for the Lake of Fire.

What to DO.

Well, you could think that Paul has said that Jesus' crucifixion takes care of that for you, if you believe in him, but Jesus didn't say that.

So we ignore Paul and look at Jesus. In the parable of the unforgiving servant, Jesus concluded by saying that you will be forgiven your sins by God only to the extent that you forgive other men their sins against you. You will be measured by the yardstick by which you were measured.

So, if you listen to Paul, you're going to perhaps just think that all you have to do is believe that Jesus was the Son of God, crucified for your sake, and that you are covered.

But if you think that, you are ignoring Jesus - the Jesus who said "What good does it do you to say that you follow me if you don't keep my commandments?"

If you listen to Jesus, your sexual immorality will doom you to the lake of fire unless you are forgiven, and God will forgive you - if, and only if, and only to the extent that, you forgive other men their sins against you.

So, if you listen to Paul but DON'T forgive, Jesus' death did not forgive you your sins, because you didn't REALLY believe Jesus, because you didn't keep his commandment by forgiving other men their sins against you.

If you just listened to Jesus and focused on him, you would have gotten it right all along.

Paul is wonderful - BUT Paul is not God, and his words are not law, and what he says does not have the same authority as Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God, and the designated lawgiver by the Father ("Listen to HIM"). If your doctrine ignores something Jesus said, it's wrong.

Any man who just reads Jesus, carefully, and listens to what HE says, and keeps it, trust's Jesus ("faith" is the word "trust"), is following Jesus, and will pass final judgment if he does what Jesus said.

Anybody who does it a different way, if that different ways ignores the important commandments of Jesus, is not following Jesus, is not trusting Jesus, and is in jeopardy, but may believe - like the self-righteous Pharisee - that he is right.

Peter spoke truly: Paul is Scripture, but he is difficult to understand, and is twisted by many to their own destruction. The place to start and end is Jesus. One must thoroughly know Jesus, and take THAT as the ironclad law that it is, and only THEN read Paul, and see where Paul seems to contradict Jesus, and then understand that Paul is merely focusing on a specific aspect of things, but not giving the complete picture. Paul has no authority to override Jesus. He is too often read as though he does. That's a grave error.

Learn first the law of Jesus, just Jesus. THEN you have the foundation to be able to understand and deal with Paul. Paul does not mention that if you don't forgive other men their sins against you, God won't forgive you. That's not part of his doctrine. His doctrine is incomplete. Jesus said that, and Jesus is God, so the forgiveness of others is required for salvation - without it, you cannot be forgiven your sins, and you cannot pass final judgment.

So you just go by Jesus and ignore Paul.

Many are more comfortable with the gospels than what follows.
Jesus told the disciples there was much more he wanted to teach them, more than they could now bear, but when the Spirit of truth( Holy Spirit) came he would guide them into all truth. So according to Jesus own words he was limited as to the knowledge he could share in the Gospels.
The Holy Spirit had of course come to the writers of the Epistles and they could therefore teach what previously people could not bear to know, and they wrote to people who had received the Spirit also so they could understand what the apostles wrote.
To be honest it Is a red flag to me when people just want to stick with the gospels and ignore Paul. Bearing in mind Jesus words!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Alright then - you agree - the Born Again Christian who does not forgive other men their sins against him, is not forgiven his sins by God, and will not pass final judgment. Jesus made that explicitly clear. That wasn't clearly written on MY heart. I had to learn it.

God loves his children. If they have trouble forgiving others he will help them to forgive from their heart. For it is what God does in us that is full of power, not what we can do of ourselves

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because people today just read the words "the law" when Paul says them, and think they mean ANY law. But Paul was saying The Law - Torah - the Hebrew Covenant. He was a Pharisee, a Jewish Lawyer. When HE says "The Law" in all of his writings, he does not mean simply "law", and he does not mean Roman Law, or the precepts of Christ. He only means the mitzvot of THE Law - the Torah. THE Law, to Jews, was the Torah.

So, every time you read Paul speaking of being "under THE Law", or "not under THE Law", to understand what he means, you have to read it the way he would have said it: Torah.

The Torah contains the covenant between YHWH and the Hebrews. It is the Law Book of THE Law, to Jews. The Apostles and most early Christians were all Jews. Paul was a Jewish lawyer. He started out in each new town in the synagogues, and aimed at Jews first, then Gentiles.

When he says "The Law", that we're not under, he's a Jewish Lawyer speaking of The Law - the Torah - that he and other converts are not under, because of Christ. He is saying: you will not be getting blessings by trying to follow the Law of Moses. Eating pork, or not, isn't going to make a difference. Keeping the Sabbath won't make a difference. But because The Law, which is The Law of the Jews, is so complicated and long, and can only be carried out with various rituals, including going to Jerusalem three times a year, etc., there was no possibility of following it ANYWAY. Gentiles could not follow it. Neither could Jews outside of Israel. And IN Israel, they DIDN'T follow all of it - they would not forgive debts in the seventh year, release slaves, do all of the social requirements.

Paul was saying, very clearly, that to come to Christ by trying to follow The Torah - which what The Law means - is a dead end. You can't do it. If you put yourself under it, you're signing the contract of Sinai, and God will hold you accountable for it - and you'll fail.

You have to follow Jesus instead. Now, Jesus actually did give commandments, and those ARE law, but they are not THE Law. Christians who don't keep Jesus' commandments against lying, killing, idolatry, sexual immorality, cowardice, pharmakeia (mind-altering drug and charm peddling), unbelief, and being dirty dogs, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment UNLESS they follow Jesus' law of forgiveness of sin, which is that God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive the sins of others committed against you. If you forgive everything, you will be forgiven everything. If you don't, you won't be. You will be measured by the yardstick by which you measured others. THAT law is binding law and whoever refuses to follow the Law of Jesus, given in the sentence, will not pass final judgment and enter the City of God.

But that's not THE Law that Paul referred to. THE Law is the Hebrew Torah. And it is defunct. Including the Ten Commandments. Some of the Ten Commandments are in Jesus' list, but some aren't. Thieves are not thrown into the Lake of Fire for stealing, for example. And Jesus gave no sabbath law, so nobody fails final judgment for sabbath-breaking either. Jesus said that those who follow them will frequently have to leave their mother and father, so the commandment to honor parents is not in force either. The Law of Jesus is DIFFERENT from The Law. And the Law of Jesus is what you're judged on at the end, not The Law.

Trouble is, most modern Christians elide "THE Law" (meaning the Torah) into "law", and read Paul as saying that Christians are not under law. Which is absolutely ridiculous and sad.

When this is pointed out, far too many Christians fight about it, claiming "Scripture". But the above actually IS Scripture. THE Law is the Torah, not simply law. The article "THE" there is actually highly significant. It designates the JEWISH Law, not all law generically. It's a very important distinction.

This is so very eloquently written and very, very true. It is such a shame. Heartbreaking really, but they are making their own choice putting themselves under the "Law" (Torah) rather than grace by faith so I guess God is letting them reap what they sow.

It is too bad though, don't wish all that stress for them. God in Christ gives us freedom, freedom in Him and in Him being the one doing good in us, not us doing good to fulfill the "Law" (Torah).

We must pray for them to receive this Truth from the Holy Spirit. Then people would see the love of Christ and what God sent His Son to die for. To set the captives free.

Obedience is very, very important. We are being sanctified by Christ. He does not want us to rest in grace. No never. As Paul would say, we do not lift obedience because of grace, no we love God all the more because of grace and do His will out of love, rather than fear.

 

[Vicomte13]

So you just go by Jesus and ignore Paul.

Many are more comfortable with the gospels than what follows.
Jesus told the disciples there was much more he wanted to teach them, more than they could now bear, but when the Spirit of truth( Holy Spirit) came he would guide them into all truth. So according to Jesus own words he was limited as to the knowledge he could share in the Gospels.
The Holy Spirit had of course come to the writers of the Epistles and they could therefore teach what previously people could not bear to know, and they wrote to people who had received the Spirit also so they could understand what the apostles wrote.
To be honest it Is a red flag to me when people just want to stick with the gospels and ignore Paul. Bearing in mind Jesus words!

To be honest with you, I find that people who exalt Paul completely throw out the various requirements and commandments of Jesus, treat them as unimportant, and believe foolish things like "One Saved, Always Saved", which Jesus clearly says is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with Paul, read correctly. But anything that disregards any of Jesus' commandments is not faith in Jesus. It's faith in something else.

In any case, we've come to the end of the road. If you want to be forgiven your sins, the way is the way Jesus said: you have to forgive other men their sins. Paul ignores that teaching. He is incomplete.

Paul teaches many things that are good, but often they are twisted to cancel out a requirement Jesus gave. And that's just what Peter rightly said that people do with Paul.

Goodnight.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Now, let me take this and apply Jesus, just Jesus. I ignore Paul, because he is not God, and didn't give the answer.

You ignore Paul? That is a mistake if you do.

We would have a very hard time trying to understand many of Christ's words without Paul. Christ did speak in parables and parables are a hard type of communication. Christ's disciples didn't understand many things of Christ until later or without special revelation from Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Think about the death and ressurrection of Christ.

The apostles were bummed that Jesus died. Was that faith in Jesus' words? That His Father would raise Him up after three days? Let's think about this carefully.

How quick did the law people come into Christ's church? Right away. Paul had to keep telling them to "contend for the faith and freedom that you have in Christ". The epistles are all letters to the churches after Paul started them; Ephesus, Corinth, Phillipi, Romans, Thessolonica, Galatia, Collosae.

Very foolish to discredit Paul.

No, even the apostle Peter needed a vision later, I think two visions to convince him the gentiles and forbidden foods in the Torah were now ok under Christ. So, was Peter faithful to God when he needed "MORE" proof after vision #1?

I would NEVER DISCREDIT Paul. BIG MISTAKE.

Did that happen before Christ died? No. No. No. That happened after Christ.

 

[stuart lawrence]

To be honest with you, I find that people who exalt Paul completely throw out the various requirements and commandments of Jesus, treat them as unimportant, and believe foolish things like "One Saved, Always Saved", which Jesus clearly says is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with Paul, read correctly. But anything that disregards any of Jesus' commandments is not faith in Jesus. It's faith in something else.

In any case, we've come to the end of the road. If you want to be forgiven your sins, the way is the way Jesus said: you have to forgive other men their sins. Paul ignores that teaching. He is incomplete.

Paul teaches many things that are good, but often they are twisted to cancel out a requirement Jesus gave. And that's just what Peter rightly said that people do with Paul.

Goodnight.

Paul showed us how to live as Christ taught. But many ignore what he wrote, or twist what he wrote due to not understanding his lettersWe must die to a righteousness of law and live by a righteousness of faith I Christ.
If we believe the canon was divinely inspired, Paul was chosen by Christ to be the chief exponent of the new covenant to the world

 

[Vicomte13]

God loves his children. If they have trouble forgiving others he will help them to forgive from their heart. For it is what God does in us that is full of power, not what we can do of ourselves

You ignore Paul? That is a mistake if you do.

We would have a very hard time trying to understand many of Christ's words without Paul. Christ did speak in parables and parables are a hard type of communication.

No, you don't ignore Paul. But you understand that Paul is dependent upon Jesus, never the reverse, and you understand that Jesus is the one who gives commandments.

And you understand that Paul does not completely address or deal with all of Jesus' commandments, but is easily misunderstand to have obviated the commandments that he doesn't mention.

If you don't fully understand the law of Jesus, you make a far graver mistake than not knowing Paul, because the law of Jesus is the law by which you will be judged. And Jesus set the terms for forgiveness. Paul is easily read to mean that you're already forgiven everything, but that is not true. Jesus makes it clear what you have to do. And Jesus is God.

 

[Vicomte13]

Paul showed us how to live as Christ taught. But many ignore what he wrote, or twist what he wrote due to not understanding his lettersWe must die to a righteousness of law and live by a righteousness of faith I Christ.
If we believe the canon was divinely inspired, Paul was chosen by Christ to be the chief exponent of the new covenant to the world

No Paul was not so chosen. John was. John walked with Jesus, wrote a Gospel, outlived them all, was the Apostle Jesus loved, and was taken up into Heaven and dictated the final revelation.

Paul is the least of the apostles.