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In another thread, I was enjoying a good but I expect offtopic conversation with my friends @ViaCrucis and @BobRyan about denominational size:
Picking up where we left off, it might be interesting to both resume that discussion about the relative sizes of denominations and communions, and about the proper metrics for establishing the size of these entities.
A. we don't "expect" Christianity Today be inaccurate.
B. you are using "bait and switch" between "is in communion" and "is a single denomination" - but Christianity Today was not.
so .. the point remains.
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For example -- Oriental Orthodox
"Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[4] These six churches, while being in communion with each other are completely independent hierarchically and have no equivalent of the Bishop of Rome"
You use the term "in communion" - AS If that means "under the same administrative leadership" - with all tithes, policies, practices determine by a single authoritative body. A "bait and switch"
And of course "Christianity Today" knows that is not true for all Lutherans in N.E. where the Lutheran religion is part of the state government so even citizens that are atheist or Buddhist would be paying taxes that go to the Lutheran church of that country and for example the king of that country (in Norway) would be required to be Lutheran
Lutherans in Europe: "Church attendance on Sundays is no longer the norm. Often, people attend religious services only for baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals, and possibly at Christmas and Easter. Traditionally, the Lutheran youth would receive preparatory confirmation classes for 1 to 2 years around age 14, to introduce them to Christian doctrines. A large confirmation service is held once the series is completed. In some areas confirmation is now delayed until the end of the high school."
from - Lutheranism by region - Wikipedia
The single denomination status would not hold true for the oriental Orthodox nor for Calvary Chapel.
The name of the Lutheran church in Norway -- "Evangelical-Lutheran Church". A constitutional amendment of May 21, 2012 designates the church as "Norway's people's church" (Norges Folkekirke),
Calvary Chapel: -- NOT a denomination by their own confession.
Calvary Chapel is an evangelical[1][page needed] association of Christian churches. Calvary Chapel also maintains a number of radio stations around the world and operates many local Calvary Chapel Bible College programs. It presents itself as a "fellowship of churches" in contrast to a denomination[2][3] with over one thousand congregations worldwide.[4] Churches that affiliate with Calvary Chapel may use the name "Calvary Chapel" but need not do so.
from - Calvary Chapel - Wikipedia
The Christianity Today article included that fact. You are responding without reading the article apparently.
Again the bait and switch between "Denomination" and "in Communion" and "same group/denomination". Were we simply not supposed to notice?
"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"
"The Catholic Church sees itself as in partial, not full, communion with other Christian groups. "With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist" Catechism of the Catholic Church.[6]
your claims don't survive the "details".
in Christ,
Bob
The difference between the two is rather fuzzy at best. When talking about Lutheran denomninations they tend to be restricted to a particular country. For example the ELCA and the ELCIC, or the Church of Sweden, the Evangelical Church of Finland, etc. On some level it starts to look a lot more like how Anglicanism operates, geographically diverse churches working in communion functioning as a single body. In the case of Lutheranism, things get far more complicated because there can be competing Lutheran bodies in the same country: ELCA, LCMS, WELS, NALC, etc.
Sometimes denominational lines are fairly clear, other times it gets immensely fuzzy to almost non-existent.
-CryptoLutheran
Alright, if you're going to go there, I'm going to go here:
Roman Catholics
Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate)
Assemblies of God
Ethiopian Orthodox
Evangelical Church in Germany
Romanian Orthodox
Church of England
Ukrainian Orthodox (Kiev Patriarchate)
Seventh Day Adventist
So instead of being no. 8 on my previous list, Adventism is now no. 9, moving down one position! No. 10 if furthermore we classify the Calvary Chapel as structurally equivalent to the above despite their claims to be not a denomination (which is of course mere branding).
It would be better to just accept my communion-based definition, which comes closer to no. 5 if not by much...
By the way, your definition of denomination vs. communion would exclude all denominations that embrace a congregationalist polity even where unlike the Calvary Chapel they identify as denominations (for instance, the United Church of Christ).
By the way, the article you refer to @BobRyan goes on the basis of communion, like my post:
Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?
They just do it incompetently. Because there is no sense in which the Eastern Orthodox are an integral communion or denomination and the Oriental Orthodox are not, considering we share a common polity of autocephalous bishops. There is for that matter no sense in which the Anglican Communion is an integral communion or denomination and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation are not. Et cetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
The mind-blowing thing is that they forgot about the Oriental Orthodox, and/or incorrectly assumed we are the same as the Eastern Orthodox. Alas we are not, we are not in full communion, I wish we were, as do many of my coreligionists, but we are not, so , but this does outright torpedo the article in question.
In general I regard popular news magazines as unreliable source material when seeking a scholarly discussion.
At any rate, Adventism is not the fifth largest denomination or communion.
Picking up where we left off, it might be interesting to both resume that discussion about the relative sizes of denominations and communions, and about the proper metrics for establishing the size of these entities.