Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
In another thread, I was enjoying a good but I expect offtopic conversation with my friends @ViaCrucis and @BobRyan about denominational size:

A. we don't "expect" Christianity Today be inaccurate.
B. you are using "bait and switch" between "is in communion" and "is a single denomination" - but Christianity Today was not.

so .. the point remains.

===============================

For example -- Oriental Orthodox

"Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) and Armenian Apostolic churches.[4] These six churches, while being in communion with each other are completely independent hierarchically and have no equivalent of the Bishop of Rome"

You use the term "in communion" - AS If that means "under the same administrative leadership" - with all tithes, policies, practices determine by a single authoritative body. A "bait and switch"

And of course "Christianity Today" knows that is not true for all Lutherans in N.E. where the Lutheran religion is part of the state government so even citizens that are atheist or Buddhist would be paying taxes that go to the Lutheran church of that country and for example the king of that country (in Norway) would be required to be Lutheran

Lutherans in Europe: "Church attendance on Sundays is no longer the norm. Often, people attend religious services only for baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals, and possibly at Christmas and Easter. Traditionally, the Lutheran youth would receive preparatory confirmation classes for 1 to 2 years around age 14, to introduce them to Christian doctrines. A large confirmation service is held once the series is completed. In some areas confirmation is now delayed until the end of the high school."
from - Lutheranism by region - Wikipedia


The single denomination status would not hold true for the oriental Orthodox nor for Calvary Chapel.

The name of the Lutheran church in Norway -- "Evangelical-Lutheran Church". A constitutional amendment of May 21, 2012 designates the church as "Norway's people's church" (Norges Folkekirke),

Calvary Chapel: -- NOT a denomination by their own confession.

Calvary Chapel is an evangelical[1][page needed] association of Christian churches. Calvary Chapel also maintains a number of radio stations around the world and operates many local Calvary Chapel Bible College programs. It presents itself as a "fellowship of churches" in contrast to a denomination[2][3] with over one thousand congregations worldwide.[4] Churches that affiliate with Calvary Chapel may use the name "Calvary Chapel" but need not do so.
from - Calvary Chapel - Wikipedia



The Christianity Today article included that fact. You are responding without reading the article apparently.




Again the bait and switch between "Denomination" and "in Communion" and "same group/denomination". Were we simply not supposed to notice?

"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"

"The Catholic Church sees itself as in partial, not full, communion with other Christian groups. "With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist" Catechism of the Catholic Church.[6]

your claims don't survive the "details".

in Christ,

Bob

The difference between the two is rather fuzzy at best. When talking about Lutheran denomninations they tend to be restricted to a particular country. For example the ELCA and the ELCIC, or the Church of Sweden, the Evangelical Church of Finland, etc. On some level it starts to look a lot more like how Anglicanism operates, geographically diverse churches working in communion functioning as a single body. In the case of Lutheranism, things get far more complicated because there can be competing Lutheran bodies in the same country: ELCA, LCMS, WELS, NALC, etc.

Sometimes denominational lines are fairly clear, other times it gets immensely fuzzy to almost non-existent.

-CryptoLutheran

Alright, if you're going to go there, I'm going to go here:

Roman Catholics
Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate)
Assemblies of God
Ethiopian Orthodox
Evangelical Church in Germany
Romanian Orthodox
Church of England
Ukrainian Orthodox (Kiev Patriarchate)
Seventh Day Adventist

So instead of being no. 8 on my previous list, Adventism is now no. 9, moving down one position! No. 10 if furthermore we classify the Calvary Chapel as structurally equivalent to the above despite their claims to be not a denomination (which is of course mere branding).

It would be better to just accept my communion-based definition, which comes closer to no. 5 if not by much...

By the way, your definition of denomination vs. communion would exclude all denominations that embrace a congregationalist polity even where unlike the Calvary Chapel they identify as denominations (for instance, the United Church of Christ).

By the way, the article you refer to @BobRyan goes on the basis of communion, like my post:

Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

They just do it incompetently. Because there is no sense in which the Eastern Orthodox are an integral communion or denomination and the Oriental Orthodox are not, considering we share a common polity of autocephalous bishops. There is for that matter no sense in which the Anglican Communion is an integral communion or denomination and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation are not. Et cetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

The mind-blowing thing is that they forgot about the Oriental Orthodox, and/or incorrectly assumed we are the same as the Eastern Orthodox. Alas we are not, we are not in full communion, I wish we were, as do many of my coreligionists, but we are not, so :(, but this does outright torpedo the article in question.

In general I regard popular news magazines as unreliable source material when seeking a scholarly discussion.

At any rate, Adventism is not the fifth largest denomination or communion.

Picking up where we left off, it might be interesting to both resume that discussion about the relative sizes of denominations and communions, and about the proper metrics for establishing the size of these entities.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: archer75

Radrook

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
11,536
2,723
USA
Visit site
✟134,848.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
One thing to keep in mind when talking about numbers in reference to Christians is that Jesus said that the road to salvation was narrow and that FEW were the ones who would find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Cross references:
  1. Matthew 7:13 : Lk 13:24; Jn 10:7, 9
New International Version (NIV)
 
Upvote 0

FaithfulPilgrim

Eternally Seeking
Feb 8, 2015
455
120
South Carolina
✟39,839.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
There's no clear cut line between what is and isn't a denomination.

For example, a lot of people consider the SBC, or just Baptists in general, to be a denomination, though they would tell you they are a fellowship of churches that voluntarily come together under a common cause and they aren't a denomimation because they have no centralized leadership. However, the SBC looks much more like a denomination than the Free Will Baptists, Independent Baptists, etc., with the latter two being more like different thoughts of what a Baptist is than a denomination.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paul Yohannan
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There's no clear cut line between what is and isn't a denomination.

For example, a lot of people consider the SBC, or just Baptists in general, to be a denomination, though they would tell you they are a fellowship of churches

I post occassionally on a Baptist discussion forum and there you find Baptists belonging to Independ/Missionary Baptist group that say they will not celebrate communion with SBC churches. It would be very difficult to cast them all into one bucket.

At an SBC church I heard the pastor give a sermon about "what is a baptist" and his statement was that it is pretty simple - He said "you believe the Bible is the Word of God, believer's baptism by immersion, -- and you use the word "Baptist" in your name."

I don't think that counts as a denomination since they do not even remotely report to one administrative group.

SBC is questionable as you note - but at least they hold conferences, vote on statements of faith, vote on positions and policy, require some sort of payment/dues.

the SBC looks much more like a denomination than the Free Will Baptists, Independent Baptists, etc., with the latter two being more like different thoughts of what a Baptist is than a denomination.

I think you are right and in the 1980's there were about 14 million SBC and 4 Million SDAs.

Now we have almost 20 million SDAs and something like 16 or 17 million SBC.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
One thing to keep in mind when talking about numbers in reference to Christians is that Jesus said that the road to salvation was narrow and that FEW were the ones who would find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Cross references:
  1. Matthew 7:13 : Lk 13:24; Jn 10:7, 9
New International Version (NIV)

True - bigger does not mean "right-er"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Paul Yohannan said:
By the way, the article you refer to @BobRyan goes on the basis of communion, like my post:

Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

They just do it incompetently. Because there is no sense in which the Eastern Orthodox are an integral communion or denomination and the Oriental Orthodox are not, considering we share a common polity of autocephalous bishops. There is for that matter no sense in which the Anglican Communion is an integral communion or denomination and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation are not. Et cetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

The mind-blowing thing is that they forgot about the Oriental Orthodox, and/or incorrectly assumed we are the same as the Eastern Orthodox. Alas we are not, we are not in full communion, I wish we were, as do many of my coreligionists, but we are not, so :(, but this does outright torpedo the article in question.

In general I regard popular news magazines as unreliable source material when seeking a scholarly discussion.

At any rate, Adventism is not the fifth largest denomination or communion.

you said "At any rate, Adventism is not the fifth largest denomination or communion"

My point was about denominations - and I argued that you were doing a bait-and-switch to the subject of what different denominations are in communion. Denomination is much more specific than "what groups are in communion".

But as you note -- the article says "In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."

And we are of course now at almost 20 million having past the 19 million mark.

"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"

Seventh-day Baptists and Adventist have communion in that they both celebrate the Lord's Table - the communion service open to the other. They both have 66 books in their Bibles, they both believe in believer's baptism, sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition, virgin birth, literal death burial and resurrection of Christ, saved by grace through faith, they both reject prayers to the dead, they both reject images in worship, they both reject purgatory, indulgences and the idea that Mary was sinless, they both accept the trinity and the pre-mill literal visible 2nd coming of Christ, they both reject earthly priestly orders ...

All of which we also share with most other Baptists - but in the case above we and Seventh-day Baptists also accept the Bible Sabbath as unedited and unchanged in the still-binding unit of moral law - the TEN Commandments.

Even so -- we are different denominations
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
you said "At any rate, Adventism is not the fifth largest denomination or communion"

My point was about denominations - and I argued that you were doing a bait-and-switch to the subject of what different denominations are in communion. Denomination is much more specific than "what groups are in communion".

But as you note -- the article says "In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."

And we are of course now at almost 20 million having past the 19 million mark.

"full communion is a relationship between church organizations, groups, and individuals that mutually recognize their sharing the essential doctrines"

Seventh-day Baptists and Adventist have communion in that they both celebrate the Lord's Table - the communion service open to the other. They both have 66 books in their Bibles, they both believe in believer's baptism, sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition, virgin birth, literal death burial and resurrection of Christ, saved by grace through faith, they both reject prayers to the dead, they both reject images in worship, they both reject purgatory, indulgences and the idea that Mary was sinless, they both accept the trinity and the pre-mill literal visible 2nd coming of Christ, they both reject earthly priestly orders ...

All of which we also share with most other Baptists - but in the case above we and Seventh-day Baptists also accept the Bible Sabbath as unedited and unchanged in the still-binding unit of moral law - the TEN Commandments.

Even so -- we are different denominations

But, the article is wrong, because at a minimum Oriental Orthodoxy would have to be included, as well as the Lutheran churches in full communion.

Otherwise if one is to recalculate on the basis of individual autocephalous churches, Adventism gets pushed back considerably due to the larger EO jurisdictions being counted separately.
 
Upvote 0

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
One thing to keep in mind when talking about numbers in reference to Christians is that Jesus said that the road to salvation was narrow and that FEW were the ones who would find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Cross references:
  1. Matthew 7:13 : Lk 13:24; Jn 10:7, 9
New International Version (NIV)

Even the Catholics represent merely a slice of the total human population.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
But, the article is wrong, because at a minimum Oriental Orthodoxy would have to be included,

Oriental Orthodoxy is many groups associated under that classification. It is not one single denomination with one single administrative body.

Same is true with all the various Lutheran groups. They do not all report to one administrative body.

Adventism on the other hand has one single administrative body and all doctrines and beliefs are voted on by the church in session once every 5 years - which includes voting on the content and changes to the church manual. Tithes from the U.S. get sent out to pastors and teachers all over the world in cases where those pastors do not have enough funding in their local conference to support them. It is one single world wide church - one single administrative body - one voted statement of beliefs etc.

We can vote on what the inter-American Division is "allowed" to do or not do when it comes to ordination of pastors... for example.
 
Upvote 0

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Oriental Orthodoxy is many groups associated under that classification. It is not one single denomination with one single administrative body.

Same is true with all the various Lutheran groups. They do not all report to one administrative body.

Adventism on the other hand has one single administrative body and all doctrines and beliefs are voted on by the church in session once every 5 years - which includes voting on the content and changes to the church manual. Tithes from the U.S. get sent out to pastors and teachers all over the world in cases where those pastors do not have enough funding in their local conference to support them. It is one single world wide church - one single administrative body - one voted statement of beliefs etc.

We can vote on what the inter-American Division is "allowed" to do or not do when it comes to ordination of pastors... for example.

The article in question specifically referred to communions rather than denominations. What is more, it listed the Eastern Orthodox as one such denomination or communion. If you are going to do that, you also have to list the Oriental Orthodox and the Lutherans.

There is no single administrative body for the Eastern Orthodox, and no single administrative body for the Oriental Orthodox.

Now if we go on the basis of churches with integrated governance, with one single administrative body, Adventists drop down to ninth place, because of the multiplicity of Orthodox jurisdictions.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Seems to me, a pointless discussion.

Mine is right and I know it!:idea:^_^

I find it interesting in a geeky sort of way, but I do not recommend what one might call "tape-measure theology."
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,381
5,253
✟817,053.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I find it interesting in a geeky sort of way, but I do not recommend what one might call "tape-measure theology."

"Mine is bigger than your's" does matter to some!:p
 
Upvote 0

Episaw

Always learning
Nov 12, 2010
2,547
603
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟38,829.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Oriental Orthodoxy is many groups associated under that classification. It is not one single denomination with one single administrative body.

Same is true with all the various Lutheran groups. They do not all report to one administrative body.

Adventism on the other hand has one single administrative body and all doctrines and beliefs are voted on by the church in session once every 5 years - which includes voting on the content and changes to the church manual. Tithes from the U.S. get sent out to pastors and teachers all over the world in cases where those pastors do not have enough funding in their local conference to support them. It is one single world wide church - one single administrative body - one voted statement of beliefs etc.

We can vote on what the inter-American Division is "allowed" to do or not do when it comes to ordination of pastors... for example.

Just a thought. Where does it say in scripture that the church has to come together every five years to determine policy?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Episaw

Always learning
Nov 12, 2010
2,547
603
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟38,829.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The article in question specifically referred to communions rather than denominations. What is more, it listed the Eastern Orthodox as one such denomination or communion. If you are going to do that, you also have to list the Oriental Orthodox and the Lutherans.

There is no single administrative body for the Eastern Orthodox, and no single administrative body for the Oriental Orthodox.

Now if we go on the basis of churches with integrated governance, with one single administrative body, Adventists drop down to ninth place, because of the multiplicity of Orthodox jurisdictions.

Where do we find in scripture a single administrative body?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟900,262.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The article in question specifically referred to communions rather than denominations. What is more, it listed the Eastern Orthodox as one such denomination or communion. If you are going to do that, you also have to list the Oriental Orthodox and the Lutherans.

True - slicing them up into their smaller yet-more-equivalent part in the case of Eastern and Oriental orthodox would like result in a different picture.

as you point out -
"There is no single administrative body for the Eastern Orthodox, and no single administrative body for the Oriental Orthodox."

so slicing them up until you get to one single admin that has absolute control over all churches under it - would result in more members in the list - but at a tinier magnitude.

Now if we go on the basis of churches with integrated governance, with one single administrative body, Adventists drop down to ninth place, because of the multiplicity of Orthodox jurisdictions.

Possibly - but I have not looked at those numbers in the various Orthodox sects.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paul Yohannan

Well-Known Member
Mar 24, 2016
3,886
1,587
43
Old Route 66
✟34,744.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Where do we find in scripture a single administrative body?

We do not, hence the Orthodox model of autocephalous bishops and ecumenical councils, which is scriptural (see Timothy, Acts 15, et cetera).
 
Upvote 0