On the size of denominations and communions

[Paul Yohannan]

True - slicing them up into their smaller yet-more-equivalent part in the case of Eastern and Oriental orthodox would like result in a different picture.

as you point out -
"There is no single administrative body for the Eastern Orthodox, and no single administrative body for the Oriental Orthodox."

so slicing them up until you get to one single admin that has absolute control over all churches under it - would result in more members in the list - but at a tinier magnitude.



Possibly - but I have not looked at those numbers in the various Orthodox sects.

See the posts I quoted above for a breakdown of the two number categories.

 

[bcbsr]

One thing to keep in mind when talking about numbers in reference to Christians is that Jesus said that the road to salvation was narrow and that FEW were the ones who would find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Cross references:

1. Matthew 7:13 : Lk 13:24; Jn 10:7, 9

New International Version (NIV)

Which would lead one to think that the legitimacy of a sect is inversely proportion to its size. So much for Catholicism.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Which would lead one to think that the legitimacy of a sect is inversely proportion to its size. So much for Catholicism.

Alas, no, because Catholics are still a fraction of the human population.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Alas, no, because Catholics are still a fraction of the human population.

Even the Catholics represent merely a slice of the total human population.

I\ll give you a 10 for repetitives

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I\ll give you a 10 for repetitives

Well I do hate having to repeat myself ad nauseum, since I do try to grt the facts straight on round 1.

 

[Philip_B]

I think the autocephalous nature of the Church is the most Ancient model, and is clearly the understanding of the Church in 325, 381, 435, 451. As an Anglican I am aware that the English Church pre the Augustinian Mission was clearly autocephalous, and it would seem in the post Augustinian period that returned at least in part, culminating in ArchBishop Stigand who was clearly not answering to Rome, so much so that in 1066 the Pope's Banners were carried to to battle by William and the following deposition of English Bishops replacing them with Normans and Italians was in part about centralisation and the assertion of Papal Power. In this context there is a sense in which what Henry VIII was really declaring was the the English Church was again autocephalus.

At the moment it is hard to know how to define an Anglican, since numbers of us are in Communion with the ArchBishop of Canterbury and numbers of us are not, though still indeed loyal to the old precepts that have guided our eclectic community of diversity. It clearly does not make sense to carve us all up into our many and various jurisdictions because there is much more to it than that, neither does it simply boil down to the formal matter of communion. The one thing we do know is that if all the Anglicans in the world were laid end to end they would never reach a conclusion!

 

[Episaw]

Doesn't - also does not say to drive with your seatbelt buckled.

What has wearing a seat belt got to do with scriptural church government?

 

[Episaw]

We do not, hence the Orthodox model of autocephalous bishops and ecumenical councils, which is scriptural (see Timothy, Acts 15, et cetera).

Where does it say in scripture that the church has a head bishop that does not report to a higher ranking bishop? In the New Testament Greek all leadership is servant leadership not authority leadership.

 

[Philip_B]

Orthodox sects.

Unfortunate use of language.

 

[Episaw]

At the moment it is hard to know how to define an Anglican, since numbers of us are in Communion with the ArchBishop of Canterbury and numbers of us are not, though still indeed loyal to the old precepts that have guided our eclectic community of diversity.

I am pleased to say that I am in communion with a risen Lord and Saviour on a daily basis so his honourable Archie of Canterbury doesn't get a look in.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Where does it say in scripture that the church has a head bishop that does not report to a higher ranking bishop? In the New Testament Greek all leadership is servant leadership not authority leadership.

In the holy Orthodox Church there is only servant leadership. The archbishops of autocephalous churches are accountable to their synods and can be deposed like any other bishop; they are also accountable to each other.

This is also at least hypothetically true in the case of the Anglican communion.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

At any rate this discussion of church polity is offtopic, so we will now return to the topic of denominational size comparisons.

 

[klutedavid]

I post occassionally on a Baptist discussion forum and there you find Baptists belonging to Independ/Missionary Baptist group that say they will not celebrate communion with SBC churches. It would be very difficult to cast them all into one bucket.

At an SBC church I heard the pastor give a sermon about "what is a baptist" and his statement was that it is pretty simple - He said "you believe the Bible is the Word of God, believer's baptism by immersion, -- and you use the word "Baptist" in your name."

I don't think that counts as a denomination since they do not even remotely report to one administrative group.

SBC is questionable as you note - but at least they hold conferences, vote on statements of faith, vote on positions and policy, require some sort of payment/dues.



I think you are right and in the 1980's there were about 14 million SBC and 4 Million SDAs.

Now we have almost 20 million SDAs and something like 16 or 17 million SBC.

Hello Bob.

The numbers you quoted above, are probably not accurate, SDA is a very small denomination in Australia. I checked the listed SDA churches in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne, not much more than thirty five churches, all up.

Approximate attendance at each church, let's say one hundred members. I have attended two separate SDA churches, slightly less than about one hundred members attended each church. Multiply the listed churches by 100, and Australia wide, you would be scratching to get 30,000 members.

I cannot confirm the number of SDA churches in other countries, outside of the USA. Though I would strongly doubt that the frequency of SDA churches per city, would vary far from the frequency in OZ.

There are over a billion people that follow Islam.

Hundreds of millions of Catholics.

The number of members of a church movement, in the end is meaningless.

 

[Episaw]

In the holy Orthodox Church there is only servant leadership. The archbishops of autocephalous churches are accountable to their synods and can be deposed like any other bishop; they are also accountable to each other.

This is also at least hypothetically true in the case of the Anglican communion.

In that case, when you sit down for a meal together the head archbishop waits until all are sat down and have a meal in front of them and sits wherever there is a vacant chair.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

In that case, when you sit down for a meal together the head archbishop waits until all are sat down and have a meal in front of them and sits wherever there is a vacant chair.

Alas it is not my custom to dine with the Archbishop of Canterbury. Justin Welby's vestments make my eyes hurt (particularly the mitre with dolohins on it).

Say what you will about Rowan Williams, but at least the man knew how to put it down.

 

[Episaw]

Alas, no, because Catholics are still a fraction of the human population.

If one is to be believed a very large fraction in the region of 1.6 billion.

 

[Episaw]

Alas it is not my custom to dine with the Archbishop of Canterbury. Justin Welby's vestments make my eyes hurt (particularly the mitre with dolohins on it).

Say what you will about Rowan Williams, but at least the man knew how to put it down.

I am not talking about the Anglicans and you were talking about the "holy Orthodox Church" so I guess your none reply means that the head honcho in your set up is not a servant leader.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I am not talking about the Anglicans and you were talking about the "holy Orthodox Church" so I guess your none reply means that the head honcho in your set up is not a servant leader.

This is offtopic and also relatively lacking in an appropriate level of respect for people of different faith traditions.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The numbers you quoted above, are probably not accurate, SDA is a very small denomination in Australia. I checked the listed SDA churches in Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne, not much more than thirty five churches, all up.

You count "the number of churches" in 3 cities - to get the total SDA denomination world wide membership -- and then say that my numbers are "probably not accurate" ???

Please be serious.

Hint - Affluent materialistic areas like Europe Australia and North America represent the smallest concentration of Adventists per capita of any region outside of the middle east.

Still - those who "are serious" for numbers in your area - note these "actual facts" in 2015, vs simply making stuff up based on a few churches in 3 cities.

South Pacific
The South Pacific Division (SPD) is comprised of Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, and numerous islands throughout the South Pacific Ocean. The Adventist Church counts about 423,000 members worshiping in nearly 2,000 churches.

 

[BobRyan]

Unfortunate use of language.

The language is in reference to something the Orthodox do in countries where they own the government - the refer to all other Christian groups as "sects". I simply assumed this is how they expect to be referenced by anyone not of their same denomination.

Strictly speaking Paul mentioned that this is how the Jews viewed the Christians - as a sect of Judaism.