Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

[PesachPup]

What now? When heaven and earth pass away, the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1-4). What exactly are you saying that Jesus said will happen after heaven and earth pass away? Whatever you think it is, it would have to be things related to the new heavens and new earth.

Peter goes to say,

2Pe 3:13 KJV NEVERTHELESS we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In essence Peter is saying, though heaven and earth shall indeed pass away, this is not the new heavens and earth that we look forward to. The invigorating thought of Peter is that passing away (by fire) of heaven and earth is, THAT is but the judgment of wicked men. The new heavens and earth is the judgment of the righteous. That is what He exhorts them to be looking for. Peter began this discourse by saying that scoffers will come, saying "where is the promise of his coming/parousia?". I.e., what happened to rewarding the righteous? [Where is the eternal life that is supposed to come with your coming, Jesus? We are still here Jesus (after the earth's baptism of fire)! I thought you were coming to judge the ungodly and wicked. We are still here.] What this all boils down to, is, after the baptism of fire and even after the parousia, men will begin to think that there is no judgment of the wicked. They will scoff at the judgment of God, saying, "... all things continue as since the beginning of the creation". This includes the time of the flood. The wicked people who survive that time will think that there is no more judgment of the wicked. They will live without any restraint upon their lives, living in the deepest depravity of sinfulness.
Going a bit deeper in my thoughts, Jesus said that after all these things have happened, THEN the KOG would be near. This parallels Jesus saying that the KOG comes without observation, Luke 17. The 7th trumpet is the arrival of the kingdom:

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And it is also, the time of God's wrath has come,

Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

But where is the king? Many, many people mistakenly claim that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet heralds not just the kingdom, but also the king. But the arrival of the king. Is not there (at that time). He comes later. The arrival of the kingdom, without the simultaneous arrival of the king, is how Jesus will judge the secrets of men's hearts. It will cause men, of that day, to reveal their true nature. We will not have this man rule over us. The will be given the choice of two kingdoms. The kingdom of the beast being ruled by the man of sin (no more mystery of iniquity) OR the kingdom of God, absent the king of righteousness. The kingdom of the beast will run for 42 months concurrently with the setting up the kingdom of God. I would suggest a rereading of Daniel 7.

Dan 7:9-14 KJV 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:25-27 KJV 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Douggg]

You seem to think that people can only say "peace and safety" if the world was all completely, literally peaceful and safe.

No, I am saying that the whole world will be saying peace and safety for a specific reason.

They will be under the illusion that the messianic age of peace and safety has begun with the Antichrist, King of Israel, messiah in place, following Gog/Magog.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Ultimately, to me, the Day of the Lord never ends.
the second coming never ends.
it is eternal
it is a lasting parousia.

So, what was the point of bringing up Noah's day then?

 

[Douggg]

There is a whole lot of debate going on in this thread, but I actually wanted to know if the Olivet Discourse lines up with Rev 6...
View attachment 306188

The answer is "no" in the manner you have in your charts.

Parts of Revelation 6 do line up with parts of the Olivet discourse.

The black horse rider, the pale horse rider, and the sixth seal of Revelation 6 - line up with the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21-22 and Matthew 24:29-30a the sign of the Son of Man in heaven of the Olivet discourse.

black horse rider, pale horse rider - Matthew 24:21-22
sixth seal - Matthew 24:29-30a

 

[PesachPup]

There is a whole lot of debate going on in this thread, but I actually wanted to know if the Olivet Discourse lines up with Rev 6...
View attachment 306188

The Olivet discourse is actually covered by material in Rev 6-14, with chapter 14 being the gathering of the elect that begins right after the great trumpet (the 7th) is blown.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Peter goes to say,

2Pe 3:13 KJV NEVERTHELESS we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In essence Peter is saying, though heaven and earth shall indeed pass away, this is not the new heavens and earth that we look forward to. The invigorating thought of Peter is that passing away (by fire) of heaven and earth is, THAT is but the judgment of wicked men. The new heavens and earth is the judgment of the righteous. That is what He exhorts them to be looking for. Peter began this discourse by saying that scoffers will come, saying "where is the promise of his coming/parousia?". I.e., what happened to rewarding the righteous? [Where is the eternal life that is supposed to come with your coming, Jesus? We are still here Jesus (after the earth's baptism of fire)! I thought you were coming to judge the ungodly and wicked. We are still here.] What this all boils down to, is, after the baptism of fire and even after the parousia, men will begin to think that there is no judgment of the wicked. They will scoff at the judgment of God, saying, "... all things continue as since the beginning of the creation". This includes the time of the flood. The wicked people who survive that time will think that there is no more judgment of the wicked. They will live without any restraint upon their lives, living in the deepest depravity of sinfulness.

You're talking about people surviving the burning up of the earth? How can they survive that? You're not making any sense to me at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No, I am saying that the whole world will be saying peace and safety for a specific reason.

They will be under the illusion that the messianic age of peace and safety has begun with the Antichrist, King of Israel, messiah in place, following Gog/Magog.

That is not at all what Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6, which is the passage we're talking about.

How do you think the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul wrote about in relation to the day of the Lord fits into your Antichrist scenario? How does the day of the Lord come unexpectedly like a thief in the night in your Antichrist scenario?

 

[PesachPup]

You're talking about people surviving the burning up of the earth? How can they survive that? You're not making any sense to me at all.

Where do you see that the earth is completely renovated? That only comes about with the new heavens, wherein dwelleth righteousness. The present earth is what is reserved unto the judgment of ungodly by fire. The new heavens and earth are reserved unto the reward of righteous. Ask yourself, who is the we in:
2Pe 3:13 KJV Nevertheless WE, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Does the we include the ungodly?

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Douggg]

hat is not at all what Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6, which is the passage we're talking about.

How do you think the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul wrote about in relation to the day of the Lord fits into your Antichrist scenario? How does the day of the Lord come unexpectedly like a thief in the night in your Antichrist scenario?

First things first. It is Antichrist (peace and safety false messianic age) to becoming revealed as the man of sin (Day of the Lord begins) scenario.


Before I begin, the following information is essential to understanding the end times; it is core, foundational.

Knowing the sequence of the person, in his three functional roles. There are transitional roles, also, which I highlighted in blue.

start

little horn is being the king of the fourth empire.

prince who shall come following Gog/Magog

Antichrist is being the King of Israel messiah, coming in his own name

revealed man of sin

beast is being the dictator of the beast kingdom.

end

_______________________________________________________________________

The person is anointed the King of Israel messiah, becoming the Antichrist. The world begins saying "peace and safety" (erroneously) thinking it has entered the messianic age. 1Thessalonians5.

2Thessalonians 2:4 - 3 years, thereabouts, later, the Antichrist upsets the apple cart by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. His actions, sudden and unexpected, like a thief in the night, triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The church must be out of here before then.

Revealed as the man of sin, it ends his functional role as the Antichrist, no longer will the Jews regard him as the King of Israel messiah.

His next functional role will be as the beast, dictator of the beast kingdom of Revelation 13.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Where do you see that the earth is completely renovated? That only comes about with the new heavens, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yes, exactly. This earth will be burned up and will be renovated and the result will be the new earth. It is the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking forward to (2 Peter 3:13), not some earthly millennial kingdom.

The present earth is what is reserved unto the judgment of ungodly by fire.

Yes, exactly. I didn't say otherwise.

The new heavens and earth are reserved unto the reward of righteous.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise.

Ask yourself, who is the we in:
2Pe 3:13 KJV Nevertheless WE, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Does the we include the ungodly?

Be Blessed
The PuP

Of course not. So, when exactly do you believe the earth will be burned up in relation to the return of Christ? And when exactly do you believe the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in in relation to the return of Christ? I'm trying to figure out what you actually believe here, but you're not being very clear.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

First things first. It is Antichrist (peace and safety false messianic age) to becoming revealed as the man of sin (Day of the Lord begins) scenario.

Whatever you want to call it, I don't care.

Before I begin, the following information is essential to understanding the end times; it is core, foundational.

Knowing the sequence of the person, in his three functional roles. There are transitional roles, also, which I highlighted in blue.

start

little horn is being the king of the fourth empire.

prince who shall come following Gog/Magog

Antichrist is being the King of Israel messiah, coming in his own name

revealed man of sin

beast is being the dictator of the beast kingdom.

end

_______________________________________________________________________

The person is anointed the King of Israel messiah, becoming the Antichrist. The world begins saying "peace and safety" (erroneously) thinking it has entered the messianic age. 1Thessalonians5.

2Thessalonians 2:4 - 3 years, thereabouts, later, the Antichrist upsets the apple cart by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. His actions, sudden and unexpected, like a thief in the night, triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

What are these sudden and unexpected actions exactly? It is the destruction that Paul says will be sudden, so whatever your answer is, it should be related to destruction of some kind. Of course, Peter says the destruction will be of the heavens and the earth, so make sure you keep that in mind as well.

The church must be out of here before then.

Whoa whoa whoa. Wait a minute. Time out. Where are you getting that from?

Paul was very clear that a falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin would have to occur first before the rapture occurs. You seem to have it the other way around.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This can't be any more clear. Paul clearly indicated that the falling away and man of sin being revealed happen BEFORE the rapture. How in the world do you conclude that those things occur AFTER the rapture? That blatantly contradicts what Paul said.

Revealed as the man of sin, it ends his functional role as the Antichrist, no longer will the Jews regard him as the King of Israel messiah.

His next functional role will be as the beast, dictator of the beast kingdom of Revelation 13.

That's not taught anywhere in scripture. For one thing John didn't even teach that there would be one Antichrist, he said there was many and he said that anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist. Also, the beast cannot be a man. John wrote that the beast "once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction" (Rev 17:8). The beast existed before John wrote the book of Revelation. If the beast was a man then he's a really, really old man by now.

 

[Douggg]

What are these sudden and unexpected actions exactly? It is the destruction that Paul says will be sudden, so whatever your answer is, it should be related to destruction of some kind. Of course, Peter says the destruction will be of the heavens and the earth, so make sure you keep that in mind as well.

His going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood - will be sudden and unexpected. From other text in Daniel 8 and Daniel 9, he stops the daily sacrifice at the same time.

His act, called the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:12-13, will trigger the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Which God's wrath is poured out on the world at that time, over the course of the great tribulation that soon follows.

In Matthew 24:21-22, if the great tribulation is not limited, no flesh will survive.

Whoa whoa whoa. Wait a minute. Time out. Where are you getting that from?

Paul was very clear that a falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin would have to occur first before the rapture occurs. You seem to have it the other way around.

Paul never called the rapture/resurrection in 1Thesslaonians4:15-18 as the Day of Christ.

He did say Christ coming specifically to resurrect the dead and translate the living in Christ. In John 14:2-3, Jesus said he would come and receive us unto Himself.

The gathering in 2Thessalonians2:1 is the rapture/resurrection.

The day of Christ in 2Thessalonians2:2 is the Day of the Lord.

In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, Christians are not appointed to the time of God's wrath which is in the Day of the Lord.

Paul, in 2Thessalonians2:3-4, states the two things that must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

1. the great falling away (in Christianity implied). That will take place beginning when the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel messiah. Whether it applies to left behind Christians (Matthew 24:49-51) or if the rapture/resurrection has not taken place by then - remains to be seen.

2. the revealing of the man of sin. That will be when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God, triggering the Day of the Lord.

The rapture/resurrection must take place before the Antichrist's transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4 because the church is not appointed the time of God's wrath which takes place during the Day of the Lord.

If you look at my chart of the Anytime rapture view - following the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist is the Aod - the great tribulation - Jesus's second coming - the millennium - GWT judgement - eternity.

That's not taught anywhere in scripture. For one thing John didn't even teach that there would be one Antichrist, he said there was many and he said that anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist.

John wrote that Antichrist (singular) shall come. And likened them who in his day were departing the church, denying Jesus, as being antichrists in the same spirit as the coming Antichrist (singular).

Also, the beast cannot be a man. John wrote that the beast "once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction" (Rev 17:8). The beast existed before John wrote the book of Revelation. If the beast was a man then he's a really, really old man by now.

Revelation 17:8 is another topic. The beast in Revelation 13, the mortally wounded and healed head is the beast man, while the body of the beast is the beast's kingdom.

 

[PesachPup]

Yes, exactly. This earth will be burned up and will be renovated and the result will be the new earth. It is the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking forward to (2 Peter 3:13), not some earthly millennial kingdom.

Yes, exactly. I didn't say otherwise.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise.

Of course not. So, when exactly do you believe the earth will be burned up in relation to the return of Christ? And when exactly do you believe the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in in relation to the return of Christ? I'm trying to figure out what you actually believe here, but you're not being very clear.

The earth's baptism of fire occurs at the time of the sixth seal, at the parousia of Christ, i.e. his revealing:

2Th 1:6-10 KJV 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice it said, "with his mighty angels".

We see similar in the parable of the tares:

Mat 13:41-43 KJV 41 The Son of man shall send forth "his angels", and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

HIS angels are the 7 trumpet angels. The DOTL, Almighty God's wrath, begins with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet,

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the kingdom of God and his Son... his kingdom, according to the parable of the tares. The DOTL will end a thousand years later, when there is no more sin. The kingdom of God that comes at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is the kingdom of God and his Christ. (Rev 11:15). It will culminate with God coming to dwell on the earth.

Rev 11:17-18 KJV 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and "art to come" ; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Christ will rule this kingdom on earth, to purge the world of all sin, even the hidden sins of the heart. At the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, the last enemy of death will have been defeated and God Almighty will come again to dwell on the earth with men. See Rev 20,21. Peter said we look for a new heavens and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. Christ is the instrument that God will use to bring in the restoration of the earth.

Act 3:19-23 KJV 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of THE LORD; 20 And he [THE LORD] shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive [GOD is to remain in heaven] until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[Spiritual Jew]

His going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood - will be sudden and unexpected. From other text in Daniel 8 and Daniel 9, he stops the daily sacrifice at the same time.

You are taking the 1 Thess 5:1-6 passage completely out of context.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The context of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night has nothing whatsoever to do with a man of sin/Antichrist going into a temple claiming to be God suddenly and unexpectedly. Not even close!

What will be sudden and unexpected is the destruction that comes upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. It even refers to "sudden destruction". How can you miss that? What you're talking about has nothing to do with destruction, so you're taking what Paul meant by the day of the Lord coming as a thief out of context.

Also, notice that Paul told his readers that they were not in spiritual darkness, so that day could not overtake them as a thief if it were to occur in their lifetimes. So, he was talking about the destruction that comes on that day coming suddenly and unexpectedly for certain people, which are those in spiritual darkness. That is what Paul was talking about. He was not at all saying that an Antichrist sitting in the temple claiming to be God would be the reason the day of the Lord would come as a thief in the night. I'm not sure if you could have taken this passage more out of context than what you did if you tried.

Paul never called the rapture/resurrection in 1Thesslaonians4:15-18 as the Day of Christ.

He did say Christ coming specifically to resurrect the dead and translate the living in Christ. In John 14:2-3, Jesus said he would come and receive us unto Himself.

The gathering in 2Thessalonians2:1 is the rapture/resurrection.

The day of Christ in 2Thessalonians2:2 is the Day of the Lord.

This is complete nonsense. Paul was clearly speaking of the same day in 2 Thess 2:2 as he was speaking of in 2 Thess 2:1 and 2 Thess 2:3. Only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that. There is no basis whatsoever for differentiating between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord as if those were separate events. It's clearly just two different ways of referring to the same event which is the day that Christ will come and we will be gathered to Him.

John wrote that Antichrist (singular) shall come. And likened them who in his day were departing the church, denying Jesus, as being antichrists in the same spirit as the coming Antichrist (singular).

No, he wrote that they heard antichrist would come and then he clarified that there wasn't just one antichrist, but many. He said there was many antichrists already even in his time. So, that completely destroys the idea of there being only one Antichrist that he was talking about.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John also said this:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

If John was teaching that a singular Antichrist was coming, then it would only follow that you would interpret this verse to be saying that the Antichrist man's spirit was already in the world at that time. Which would mean the Antichrist was already in the world in John's time. But, that isn't what John was saying at all. Instead, he was talking about an antichrist spirit or attitude was already being seen in the many antichrists that were already in the world at that time denying Jesus Christ.

The idea of a singular Antichrist was not taught by John in any of the 4 verses where he uses the term. Instead, he taught there were many antichrists because he defined an antichrist as being anyone who denies Christ. That makes for a whole lot of antichrists instead of just one.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The earth's baptism of fire occurs at the time of the sixth seal, at the parousia of Christ, i.e. his revealing:

2Th 1:6-10 KJV 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Where does this indicate that any mortals will survive the vengeance of Christ?

Notice it said, "with his mighty angels".

We see similar in the parable of the tares:

Mat 13:41-43 KJV 41 The Son of man shall send forth "his angels", and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

This passage has to do with what will happen at the end of this age, as indicated in Matt 13:40, which you did not quote for some reason. Jesus indicated that this age is temporal and the age to come is eternal.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus taught that the people of this age get married and they die. He taught that in the age to come people will not get married and will not die. So, there can't be an earthly millennial kingdom following what is described in Matthew 13:40-43 since people would obviously die during that time.

HIS angels are the 7 trumpet angels. The DOTL, Almighty God's wrath, begins with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet,

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is the kingdom of God and his Son... his kingdom, according to the parable of the tares. The DOTL will end a thousand years later, when there is no more sin.

Like I just said above, it can't end a thousand years later because the parable of the wheat and tares occurs at the end of the age. What immediately follows the end of this temporal age is eternity.

The kingdom of God that comes at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is the kingdom of God and his Christ. (Rev 11:15). It will culminate with God coming to dwell on the earth.

Rev 11:17-18 KJV 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and "art to come" ; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The passage you're referencing here, which describes things that will happen at the seventh trumpet, indicates that it will then be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Is that time not recorded in Revelation 20:11-15? Yes, I believe it is. So, that shows that the judgment will occur around the time that the seventh trumpet sounds.

Christ will rule this kingdom on earth, to purge the world of all sin, even the hidden sins of the heart. At the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, the last enemy of death will have been defeated and God Almighty will come again to dwell on the earth with men. See Rev 20,21. Peter said we look for a new heavens and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why are you looking forward to an earthly 1000 year reign of Christ instead of looking forward to the new heavens and new earth then?

 

[Douggg]

There is no basis whatsoever for differentiating between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord as if those were separate events. It's clearly just two different ways of referring to the same event which is the day that Christ will come and we will be gathered to Him.

The day of Christ and the Day of the Lord are the same. And that is what I wrote.

Being gathered unto him is the rapture/resurrection. Which must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

Which you have it just the opposite. You claim that the rapture/resurrection cannot take place until after the Day of the Lord begins, to have to experience the time of God's wrath - which that view of yours is directed opposite of what is in 1Thesalonians5.

So what you are looking forward to is the day when the man of sin is revealed by going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God, to begin the Day of the Lord. And you call that outlook - comforting one another ?



.

 

[Douggg]

Why are you looking forward to an earthly 1000 year reign of Christ instead of looking forward to the new heavens and new earth then?

We are supposed to looking up - for our redemption (of our bodies) draws near. That's what Christians are supposed to be looking forward to.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The day of Christ and the Day of the Lord are the same. And that is what I wrote.

Being gathered unto him is the rapture/resurrection. Which must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.

You don't get it. The day that the rapture/resurrection occurs is on the day of Christ/day of the Lord. In 2 Thess 2:1 Paul references Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him, right? He refers to that event as "the day of Christ" in 2 Thess 2:2 and "that day" in 2 Thess 2:3. That's what you're missing. Nowhere does Paul say that the rapture/resurrection must take place before the day of Christ/day of the Lord begins.

Which you have it just the opposite. You claim that the rapture/resurrection cannot take place until after the Day of the Lord begins, to have to experience the time of God's wrath - which that view of yours is directed opposite of what is in 1Thesalonians5.

No, I do not claim that. I claim that the rapture/resurrection occurs ON the day of the Lord.

So what you are looking forward to is the day when the man of sin is revealed by going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God, to begin the Day of the Lord. And you call that outlook - comforting one another ?

For one thing, my understanding of the man of sin is very different from yours, so keep that in mind. I don't believe in a future individual Antichrist/man of sin sitting in a literal temple with that being the beginning of the day of the Lord. I've already told you this several times before, so why do you act as if my understanding of the man of sin is the same as yours? It's not. At all. So, you can't say I'm looking forward to something I don't even believe in.

What Paul makes clear is that a falling away from the faith and the revealing of the man of sin occurs BEFORE Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him which Paul refers to as "the day of Christ" in 2 Thess 2:2 and "that day" in 2 Thess 2:3.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We are supposed to looking up - for our redemption (of our bodies) draws near. That's what Christians are supposed to be looking forward to.

Did I say otherwise? Are you saying we aren't supposed to look forward to the new heavens and new earth even though Peter said we should (2 Peter 3:13)?

The new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13) will appear right after the heavens and earth are burned up when Christ returns, so we look forward to the redemption of our bodies and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth that both will occur when Christ returns.

By the way, are you planning to address what I said in post #174? Particularly what I said about 1 Thess 5:1-6? Your interpretation of that passage is way off base, so I think you need to address that.

 

[PesachPup]

Where does this indicate that any mortals will survive the vengeance of Christ?

Where does it say that all will die?
Jesus relates his coming to the days of Noah except he says, half will be taken and half will be left.

This passage has to do with what will happen at the end of this age, as indicated in Matt 13:40, which you did not quote for some reason. Jesus indicated that this age is temporal and the age to come is eternal.

The parable of the tares is part and parcel of the kingdom of heaven parables. Of which Jesus spoke of their pertinence to the blindness of Israel. Which blindness exists in the age in which we live... the age of the church before Jesus comes again. Jesus told the apostles (and us) in Luke 22, "I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father has appointed unto me a kingdom". The kingdom to which we abide our time in is the kingdom of the apostles, the age of the church, until God shall appoint " the kingdoms of world to be the kingdoms of our God and HIS CHRIST". Christ's kingdom is the one in which the father tells him to "rule in the midst of your enemies" and will not exist in this world until his appearing again. The age to come will only see the righteous resurrected, and not every one is righteously worthy of the resurrection at that time.

Psa 110:1-2 KJV 1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Only those who belong to Christ will be resurrected at the initiation of his kingdom on earth.

1Co 15:22-25 KJV 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The purpose, [of the kingdom] as put forth in psalm 110, is to put all of God's enemies under his feet, then he shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, that God may be all in all. The wicked will not be resurrected until all enemies have been subdued... at the end of Christ's rule on earth.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Not every one is resurrected when Christ comes to rule over this world, only those deemed worthy. No one will be resurrected until God gives him the kingdoms of this world.

The passage you're referencing here, which describes things that will happen at the seventh trumpet, indicates that it will then be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Is that time not recorded in Revelation 20:11-15? Yes, I believe it is. So, that shows that the judgment will occur around the time that the seventh trumpet sounds.

Incorrect. Only the saints and prophets will be rewarded at that time. Saints refers to the holy ones, the ones deemed worthy. Prophets are God's voices of correction and truth. The authority to raise the dead has been given to Jesus because he is the son of man. They that have done good, will attain the resurrection of life at his coming and kingdom, having been deemed worthy of the kingdom. They that have done evil will attain unto the resurrection of damnation at the great white throne by being cast into the lake of fire. The reward of resurrection is according unto their works and begins when the Son of man comes to sit upon the throne of his glory.

Mat 16:27 KJV For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 25:31 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Why are you looking forward to an earthly 1000 year reign of Christ instead of looking forward to the new heavens and new earth then?

Because I desire to be deemed worthy to attain unto that world.

Luk 20:34 KJV And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk 20:35 KJV But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

2Th 1:4-10 KJV 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The worthy inheritance of the kingdom lies out before us. And Because our inheritance of the kingdom is yet future, so is the time when God shall give the kingdom to the son.

1Co 15:50-53 KJV 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

You believe the kingdom of God is now(?). I believe scripture teaches otherwise. We are to reign with Christ in his kingdom for 1000 years. A thousand years that has not yet begun.
Be Blessed
The PuP