Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

[Spiritual Jew]

Peter urged the believers to be ready because the Day of the Lord would come like a thief. The Day of the Lord will result in the heavens will pass away. Note that the earth will not pass away, but will be "exposed".

What does that mean for the earth to be exposed? No, it will be burned up. The entire surface of the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord which is why Paul said on the day of the Lord "sudden destruction" will come from which "they shall not escape". It makes sense that no one could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Where do you get the idea that this is only saying the earth will be "exposed", whatever that even means? No, it says the earth will be burned up and says "all these things" which includes the heavens, the elements and "the earth also" will "be dissolved".

This is exactly in line with the 6th seal in Rev 6:14
"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

If Revelation 6:14 lined up exactly with 2 Peter 3:10-12 then it wouldn't be possible for the 7th seal or anything else to happen after that because 2 Peter 3:10-12 has the heavens and the earth all being burned up.

Why are you taking Revelation 6:14 literally when you already acknowledge that the part of stars falling to earth in Rev 6:13 isn't literal? If heaven, or the sky, literally receded like a scroll (is that even possible?) then everyone on the earth would instantly die as a result. You apparently don't know anything about science?

If every mountain and island was literally moved from their place then where would they be moved to? You're not recognizing the figurative language here. It's simply describing in a figurative and hyperbolic way that some serious stuff is just about to happen at that point (namely, the final wrath of God upon unbelievers on the entire earth).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

no, I was responding to this statement you made...

"For one thing, many people ignore what's going on in the world and don't believe those things affect them."

The context of that is in regards to unbelievers and you know it. So, don't bring up something that you think I'm ignoring and act like that's the same context as what I was talking about.

 

[Douggg]

Regarding the terminology, I know about your interpretations but I think these "titles" are not time-bound as you see it.

It is not different "titles", but different functional roles.

For example, for purpose of illustration. Being CEO of some big company like Apple is not the same as being President of the United States. It could be that the CEO of Apple becomes the President of the U.S. So that it is the same person.

But being CEO of Apple does not equate to being President of the United States.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

See, Abraham thought maybe God meant for him to have "spiritual children" people not genetically related to him but his inheritance would go through them anyway, and God said no, it'll be your own flesh and blood children.
I think it's important to Abraham, to have some of his actual descendants saved in the end times, sure he'll be glad that gentiles get saved too, but gentiles are no substitution for what was promised.

Why is it that you don't accept what Paul taught? Do you have something against Paul? Paul clearly taught in Galatians 3:16-29 that the promises made to Abraham were to Abraham and his seed, which is Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16). And he applied the promises to those who belong to Christ as well and indicated that they too are counted as Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29).

Galatians 3:16-29 is straightforward text. Why don't you accept it? Can't we trust that Paul knew what he was talking about by applying the promises made to Abraham to Christ and His people consisting of Jew and Gentile believers?

 

[Jamdoc]

`You couldn't be more wrong. It is just the opposite of what you are saying.

Go back to 1Thessalonians5:9-11. Paul had told them before that they would not be present when the Day of the Lord began like a thief in the night.

Capping it with...

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Paul told them not to be shaken in mind or alarmed - by rumors that the Day of the Lord had begun. Verse 2.

Then he gave the two criteria that must take place before the Day of the Lord begins.


No, 1Thessalonians4-5 and 2Thessalonians2 both indicate the Anytime rapture view.

I understand that you were formally pre-trib.

The pre-trib may turn out to be right or it may not - because it is based upon faulty terminology in what it is calling "trib" as being the entire 70th week. So what it really is meaning is pre-70th week.

The pre-trib view considers the entire 70th week as "trib". But that is an error because
the entire 70th week is not tribulation. During most of the first half the world will be saying peace and safety and will not be in tribulation.

What Paul was indicating in 2Thessaloinians 2 was the rapture must take place before the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin - which takes place near the end of the first half of the 70th week. What is withholding that from happening already is that the rapture/resurrection has not happened.

Here is the difference between the Anytime rapture view and the pre-trib (70th week implied, but is an error in terminology because the entire 70th week is not tribulation).

I came up with what I labeled as the Anytime rapture view because the criteria for the rapture is only that it must happen before the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin by the transgression of desolation act.

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Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In both of our examples of what the rapture/second coming will be like, the people who are saved from the wrath of God are saved from it on the same day that everyone else suffers the wrath of God.

So 2 mistakes pretribulationists make here

1. Some believe that the rapture can happen months or even years before the 70th week commences
That is entirely unbiblical. Our examples tell us it s RIGHT before the wrath of God begins.
2. They don't properly identify what the wrath of God is, and think the entire 70th week is the wrath of God.

the wrath of God can be identified in each of the 2 narratives in Revelation very distinctly

Revelation 6:17 tells us after the 6th seal begins the wrath of God, and before you say "but they'd been experiencing the wrath of God since the first seal and they just now realize it"
Revelation 6:10

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The wrath of God hadn't started by the 5th seal (not to mention it's just rotten to claim that the 5th seal is a part of the wrath of God)

and secondly Revelation 15:1 identifies the bowls as the wrath of God, but also in Revelation 14 before it, but only after Jesus makes the first harvest, which is not put through the wrath of God. Only the second harvest done by an angel.

Pretribulationists correctly know that the rapture happens before the wrath of God, they just mistake when the wrath of God begins.

Pre wrath is consistent across the entire bible.

 

[Douggg]

The context of that is in regards to unbelievers and you know it. So, don't bring up something that you think I'm ignoring and act like that's the same context as what I was talking about.

In context, this is what you wrote... "Like I said, you don't seem to understand human behavior."

You had already said that once before. But it seems to me you are trying to shove a demeaning belittlement down my throat. It was an unnecessary comment the first time, and an unnecessary comment the second time.

That's the context you presented.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In context, this is what you wrote... "Like I said, you don't seem to understand human behavior."

You had already said that once before. But it seems to me you are trying to shove a demeaning belittlement down my throat. It was an unnecessary comment the first time, and an unnecessary comment the second time.

Do you understand that there are people who fool themselves into thinking everything is fine even when it's not? If you don't, then that is the reason for my comment because your perspective of people and their behavior would not match reality. That's all I was meaning to say. I was not trying to be demeaning.

You seem to think that people can only say "peace and safety" if the world was all completely, literally peaceful and safe. So, my point is that you are giving a lot of people too much credit. A lot of people think everything is fine even when it clearly isn't.

But, with all that said, never mind all that since it's not really the main point I'm trying to make regarding that passage (1 Thess 5:2-3).

The main point I really want to make about that passage is that it has to do with unbelievers thinking they are safe from God's wrath. We know better, right? They are not safe and they need to repent. But, they don't acknowledge it. Those people will have God's wrath come down on them on the day of the Lord and it will be "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

The world does not have to be completely peaceful and safe in order for God's wrath to come down on unbelievers unexpectedly. All it takes is for His wrath to come down on people unexpectedly is for people to not expect God's wrath to come at all.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why is it that you don't accept what Paul taught? Do you have something against Paul? Paul clearly taught in Galatians 3:16-29 that the promises made to Abraham were to Abraham and his seed, which is Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16). And he applied the promises to those who belong to Christ as well and indicated that they too are counted as Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29).

Galatians 3:16-29 is straightforward text. Why don't you accept it? Can't we trust that Paul knew what he was talking about by applying the promises made to Abraham to Christ and His people consisting of Jew and Gentile believers?

Because John makes a distinction between the 2 groups.

 

[AdB]

2 problems with that.
2 of the original tribes are truly lost and have been replaced, and the fact that it gives the names of specific tribes MOST of which are assumed to be lost to begin with

It is only now that I see that indeed Dan and Efraim are missing in this list. The list actually doesn't align with any other list... Not the sons of Israel because Dan is missing and Manassah is grandson. Not the tribes because Joseph was not a tribe and Efraim is missing and Levi wasn't listed with the tribes. Joseph is named, but also just one of his sons and not the other. There may be answers to this in Jacobs blessings to his sons and the events in Judges?

 

[AdB]

I think it's important to Abraham, to have some of his actual descendants saved in the end times, sure he'll be glad that gentiles get saved too, but gentiles are no substitution for what was promised.

He has, in any case because his offspring is mingled throughout the world population of which multitudes are saved. Also the believers that will be raptured are from all times so also jews who were still part of their respective tribe...

 

[PesachPup]

Peter urged the believers to be ready because the Day of the Lord would come like a thief. The Day of the Lord will result in the heavens will pass away. Note that the earth will not pass away, but will be "exposed". This is exactly in line with the 6th seal in Rev 6:14
"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

I think what most people misunderstand about 2Pet3 is that the passing away of the heavens and earth is not the actual beginning of the DOTL. For Peter says,
2Pe 3:11 KJV Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

The passing away of the heavens and earth is "judgment and perdition of ungodly men", and not the judgment of the righteous. We see a similar sentiment in Romans 2 where it speaks of the "wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God". The "result" being (meaning afterwards) tribulation and anguish upon "every soul of man that doeth evil" and "eternal life" to to those who have patient continuance (hupomone) in the greatest trial of their life.

Rom 2:5-10 KJV 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

This is what we also find in the Olivet discourse when Jesus says,

Mat 24:33-36 KJV 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Heaven and earth passes away before the day that comes like a thief shall arrive, along with all the other things that Jesus spoke of. The DOTL is the times of the Gentiles, Eze 30:3. It is also the time of Jacob's trouble when the elect of Israel shall be gathered together:

Jer 30:3-7 KJV 3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Joel 2:1b: ..for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; note place

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

The utter desolation and forsaking of the Jerusalem and fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles are what Paul has in mind in 2Thess2 when he says that a forsaking must take place, along with the revelation of the man of sin must take place before the DOTL can come. This is what Jesus said when he said that Jerusalem must be desolate in order to fulfill (plero'o) the times of the Gentiles. This comes as the blindness of Israel (in part) ends with the coming in of the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles. Isa 6 confirms the blindness of Israel to end when the land of Israel is forsaken and left desolate. The gathering of the elect will begin once the blindness ends. This is what we see in the Olivet discourse. That day, that Jesus said no man knows the day, is:
1. When the gathering begins,
2. The day that comes like a thief,
3. It is the day of the Lord.

When one realizes that DOTL is only beginning when gathering of the elect begins, which comes after ALL of the events of Matt 24, then one can only conclude that the coming of Jesus...
Mat 24:30 KJV And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

...IS not and CANNOT be Jesus's coming at Armageddon.

Mat 24:31 KJV And [then] he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[AdB]

In both of our examples of what the rapture/second coming will be like, the people who are saved from the wrath of God are saved from it on the same day that everyone else suffers the wrath of God

Not really, with the flood the wrath STARTED when Noah and his family went into the ark, it rained for 40 days, not all the land was drowned instantly, quite some people would stick around for several days...

What does that mean for the earth to be exposed? No, it will be burned up. The entire surface of the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord which is why Paul said on the day of the Lord "sudden destruction" will come from which "they shall not escape". It makes sense that no one could escape fire coming down upon the entire earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Where do you get the idea that this is only saying the earth will be "exposed", whatever that even means? No, it says the earth will be burned up and says "all these things" which includes the heavens, the elements and "the earth also" will "be dissolved".

If Revelation 6:14 lined up exactly with 2 Peter 3:10-12 then it wouldn't be possible for the 7th seal or anything else to happen after that because 2 Peter 3:10-12 has the heavens and the earth all being burned up.

Why are you taking Revelation 6:14 literally when you already acknowledge that the part of stars falling to earth in Rev 6:13 isn't literal? If heaven, or the sky, literally receded like a scroll (is that even possible?) then everyone on the earth would instantly die as a result. You apparently don't know anything about science?

If every mountain and island was literally moved from their place then where would they be moved to? You're not recognizing the figurative language here. It's simply describing in a figurative and hyperbolic way that some serious stuff is just about to happen at that point (namely, the final wrath of God upon unbelievers on the entire earth).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Because John makes a distinction between the 2 groups.

How does John make a distinction between them exactly? So, you apparently think that John contradicted Paul and Peter?

Was Paul mistaken when he said this:

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Was Peter mistaken when he said this:

Acts 17:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Was Paul mistaken when he said the blood of Christ joined the two (Jew and Gentile believers) together as one?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[Jamdoc]

It is only now that I see that indeed Dan and Efraim are missing in this list. The list actually doesn't align with any other list... Not the sons of Israel because Dan is missing and Manassah is grandson. Not the tribes because Joseph was not a tribe and Efraim is missing and Levi wasn't listed with the tribes. Joseph is named, but also just one of his sons and not the other. There may be answers to this in Jacobs blessings to his sons and the events in Judges?

Well we know that Dan went off to worship idols first, and in the blessings Dan was said to be a serpent.
So that may be why.
Ephraim was the cause of the sundering of the united kingdom of Israel, but Ephraim himself is not part of Jacob's blessings in Genesis 49. That blessing was given to Joseph not Ephraim or Manasseh.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not really, with the flood the wrath STARTED when Noah and his family went into the ark, it rained for 40 days, not all the land was drowned instantly, quite some people would stick around for several days...

Yeah I forgot to mention in my post but I was wanting to post, that the wrath of God in the days of Noah lasted for 1 year and 10 days in total before they were able to disembark.
to kind of make that a point to the "1 literal day of the lord" people.
that for Sodom it was 1 day
for Noah, it was over a year.

A day, a year, interchangeably Isaiah 34:8 Isaiah 63:4

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Heaven and earth passes away before the day that comes like a thief shall arrive, along with all the other things that Jesus spoke of.

What now? When heaven and earth pass away, the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1-4). What exactly are you saying that Jesus said will happen after heaven and earth pass away? Whatever you think it is, it would have to be things related to the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yeah I forgot to mention in my post but I was wanting to post, that the wrath of God in the days of Noah lasted for 1 year and 10 days in total before they were able to disembark.
to kind of make that a point to the "1 literal day of the lord" people.

What is your point here exactly? You've said you think the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years. So, how does your comment regarding what happened in Noah's day have anything to do with that? Obviously, 1000 years is much longer than 1 year and 10 days.

If you're trying to suggest that we who believe the day of the Lord is referring to one literal 24 hour day should believe that it will be at least one year or so instead, then you should think about the fact that destroying the earth with fire would certainly be quicker than destroying it with a flood. With the flood it took time for the water to spread and cover the earth. With fire it would immediately destroy things on the earth upon contact.

 

[AdB]

There is a whole lot of debate going on in this thread, but I actually wanted to know if the Olivet Discourse lines up with Rev 6...

 

[Jamdoc]

What is your point here exactly? You've said you think the day of the Lord lasts for 1000 years. So, how does your comment regarding what happened in Noah's day have anything to do with that? Obviously, 1000 years is much longer than 1 year and 10 days.

If you're trying to suggest that we who believe the day of the Lord is referring to one literal 24 hour day should believe that it will be at least one year or so instead, then you should think about the fact that destroying the earth with fire would certainly be quicker than destroying it with a flood. With the flood it took time for the water to spread and cover the earth. With fire it would immediately destroy things on the earth upon contact.

Ultimately, to me, the Day of the Lord never ends.
the second coming never ends.
it is eternal
it is a lasting parousia.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is a whole lot of debate going on in this thread, but I actually wanted to know if the Olivet Discourse lines up with Rev 6...
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well the answer is obviously yes.