Old Covenant -- vs -- New Covenant - and the same moral law of God in both

[BobRyan]

Question to @BobRyan. What covenant was given by God on Mt. Sinai? Whatever it was represented Ishmael and was to be "cast out"

As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"

But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.

What you should have added was no one could keep the moral law under the OC, though as today, some self righteous people believed they could keep it(the Pharisees)

whoa -- I keep saying that very thing in my almost non-stop over-and-over again quotes of Romans 8.

Saved vs the lost
New covenant saved -- vs -- Old Covenant lost
Spirit lead -- vs -- carnal sinful-nature-lead

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[klutedavid]

I love this ... not only because it is plain as day in Romans 3... but also because you are picking one of the areas where not only does the Bible agree with what I just said - so does every Christian denomination on the planet!

We are discussing what the text stated (Romans 3:19-20), not what the church down the street says it means.

I will use your quotation.

Romans 3:19-21
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No mention of the phrase, 'moral law'.

Indeed the Law "defines" what sin is. 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Irrelevant Bob, even here we see the phrase, 'the law'.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Still no link to the insertion of the phrase, 'moral law', into Romans 3:19-20, once again all we see in the text is, 'the law'.

In fact "the LAW and the Prophets" --- the Old Testament moral LAW of God.

You need to support your alteration of the text, Romans 3:19-20.

Repeating your mantra is not supporting your edit of the text.

Again Bob, the text (Romans 3:19-20), does not say 'moral law'. It sure appears that you have swallowed some man made interpretation of the text.

 

[ac28]

It is sort of a general rule, with some things, that, the more people that think something is true, the better the odds are that it is false. Here's a short list I made of things typically and commonly taught in Denominational Churches as being true that are absolutely NOT true, according to scripture. With time I could list 100s more, but these are the most obvious for people that know their Bibles.



Common False Beliefs Taught in Denominational Churches - Every one is untrue.

1- Man HAS a Soul..
2- The Soul is immortal
3- Hell, as Christendom defines it, is a real place where God tortures those who do not believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, even though Christ died for every sin ever committed, past, present, and future..
4- All dead believers are now in heaven with God. They immediately went to heaven after death. They didn't need to wait for the resurrection.
5- The Church has replaced Israel
6- People must do works to earn their salvation. Simply believing in Jesus Christ is not enough.
7- Saved Gentiles today will participate in the earthly Kingdom of Heaven
8- Oral traditions are acceptable to God as true doctrine.
9- The entire Bible is written TO us.
10- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else.
11- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
12- To be saved, we must be born again
13- It's OK to have religious idols, to call the chief muckymuck "Father", to pray to human saints, to tell people you can forgive their sins, to pray in vain repetitions, to have a priesthood, to force celibacy, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,
14- The present day Church started with Christ's earthly ministry
15- The present day Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2
16- True Israel is the Church
17- Lazarus and the Rich Man is a true story.
18- The comma in Lk 23:43 should be before the word, Today, as it appears in most Bibles, and not after.
19- In Lk 23, the thief and Christ met on the day of their deaths, in Paradise, which is in the 3rd Heaven according to 2Cor 12.
20- Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles
21- Israel are still God's chosen people, during this 2000 year period we're now in.
22- The Kingdom of Heaven is the hope of the Church.
23- Mary, Christ's mother, died a virgin.
24- The New Covenant is in effect for the Church today
25- Repentance means to stop sinning
26- Biblical prophecy is being fulfilled today
27- Paul should have been the 12th apostle, as the replacement for Judas
28- Present day Israel was God ordained. It was the fulfilling of prophecy
29- The Sermon on the Mount applies to us today.
30- The Lord's Prayer applies to us today.
31- The Lord's Supper applies to us today
32- Water Baptism applies to us today.
33- The Gifts of the Spirit,as given in Acts 2, are still applicable today.
34- The 12 apostles witnessed daily to both Jews and Gentiles
35- There are prophets in the Church today
36- The present day Gentile Church, The Church Which is His Body, where Christ is the Head, will go through the Tribulation.
37- The purpose of the Acts period was to build the Church
38- Today's Gentile Church will be taken up in the rapture.
39- Christ came to build a Church.
40- It is not necessary to obey 2Tim 2:15, the rule for right division.

 

[1stcenturylady]

As we all know - "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"

But when it comes to OT Israel at Sinai -- Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law (that includes the TEN Commandments) is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

Some will argue "The NEW Covenant was just made with the House of Israel according to the actual text - so it is not for Christians" -- those folks may be few and possibly confused so we will also address that in this thread.



whoa -- I keep saying that very thing in my almost non-stop over-and-over again quotes of Romans 8.

Saved vs the lost
New covenant saved -- vs -- Old Covenant lost
Spirit lead -- vs -- carnal sinful-nature-lead

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

It is disturbing that you ignored Romans 8:2 which undoes your theory and you know it. That means you don't care what God says. The Ten Commandments is the law of sin and death/the ministry of death, and the law of the Spirit of life in Christ freed us from it.

Your first paragraph you keep posting is also wrong and we all know it.

Exodus 34:28 "So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

 

[BobRyan]

Well Bob, let's see if you are a good Bible student?
You made the following statement in post #6.

And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20

Let's read that verse (Romans 3:19-20) and see if what you just said is accurate.

I love this ... not only because it is plain as day in Romans 3... but also because you are picking one of the areas where not only does the Bible agree with what I just said - so does every Christian denomination on the planet!

Nice!

Romans 3:19-21
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Indeed the Law "defines" what sin is. 1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the LAW"

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Hmm "LAW and the Prophets" sounds like OT to me. IN fact... to all of us.

You said, 'Old Covenant moral law', but the verse simply states, 'the law'.

In fact "the LAW and the Prophets" --- the Old Testament moral LAW of God.

The one 2 Cor 3 said is "written on stone"
The one with "Do not take God's name in vain" in it.

The one where the 5th Commandment is the "first commandment with promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder the "Westminster Confession of faith" and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and almost all other Christian denominations on planet earth - get this easy to read point.

The moral law -- defines what sin is.. and Romans 3 states that this Law does it.
Indeed "the LAW and the prophets" -- which is always a reference to the OT.

If I'm not mistaken Bob, you have changed that text (Romans 3:19-20),

As is so often the case... you are in fact mistaken once again.
But thanks for a focus on this text all the same -- absolutely perfect!

We are discussing what the text stated (Romans 3:19-20),

And in context -- so then ... exegesis.

Bible details so incredibly obvious every denomination all up and down the street admits to them.

It just does not get any easier than this.

I will use your quotation.

Romans 3:19-21
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Thanks -- it says it is the LAW that defines what sin is.
Just as does 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
Rom 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19-21
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

witnessed by the law and the prophets; -- that is OT LAW defining what sin is.
That is by definition - the moral law.

Irrelevant Bob,

Wishful thinking David.

Again Bob, the text (Romans 3:19-20), does not say 'moral law'.

Until you look at the details - moral law is that which defines what sin is. Violation of moral law would put in the position of being "guilty before God"

James 2
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Romans 3 context is specifically "the LAW and the prophets" as the text states... specifically OT Law.... specifically that LAW which defines what sin is -- specifically that Law that when transgressed leaves standing "guilty" before God.

The point remains.

As almost every Christian denomination on the planet has admitted.

 

[BobRyan]

It is disturbing that you ignored Romans 8:2 .

Some may find it "disturbing" that I do not quote the entire book of Romans, or the entire NT.

Everyone has free will and can choose to be disturbed as they wish. I have no desire to stop them from doing as they please.

 

[BobRyan]

Your first paragraph you keep posting is also wrong and we all know it.

Wishful thinking

Exodus 34:28 "So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

Same moral law - in both covenants.

Hence it is "still a sin" to "take God's name in vain" and we all know it.

you have been shown this easy Bible detail many many times.

 

[BobRyan]

Common False Beliefs Taught in Denominational Churches - Every one is untrue.

9- The entire Bible is written TO us.
10- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else.
11- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
12- To be saved, we must be born again
.

You give these as examples of what you call error.

Apparently a tiny 7-book-bible is truly limiting - but you are free to make such choices.

 

[ac28]

Only people that separate everything in scripture that belongs TO Israel, from everything that belongs TO the Gentiles, and then casts out all the Israel stuff and retains all the Gentile stuff, all by the use of right division (2Tim 2:15) and testing the things that differ (Phil 1:10), are approved unto God, according to 2Tim 2:15.

The Gentiles never were and never will be kept under the law. This was decided in Acts 15. Therefore, since the only purpose of the New Covenant is to put the law in every Israelite's inward parts, to enable him to keep the law, it is impossible that Gentiles will have anything to do with the New Covenant. It has never yet been put into effect. The 120 Jews in the upper room, in Ac 2, got a taste of the New Covenant when the Spirit fell on them. That, spoken of in Joel, in the New Covenant in action. Those Jews in the upper room then had the law in their inward parts.

Jer 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[BobRyan]

The Gentiles never were and never will be kept under the law. This was decided in Acts 15. .

So then the book of Acts IS in your Bible?

Acts 15 does not include "Love God with all your heart"
Acts 15 does not include "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Acts 15 does not include "do not murder"
Acts 15 does not include "do not bow down to idols"

No NT writer said that Acts 15 is the only Bible for gentiles.

Isaiah 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for keeping the Sabbath.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Unless one is born again of the Spirit they cannot see (or understand) the Kingdom of God. All they know is the ministry of death.

 

[sparow]

New Covenant does - as we see in Hebrews 8:6-12
And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20

I believe the good news revealed in the NT is the Kingdom of God is with us, near and among us; us being Israel, not the current nation of Israel but the descendants of Israel, and not all but the few who are called and chosen along with as many gentiles who are folded into Israel. What God expected of Israel of old He still requires of Israel to day.

 

[BobRyan]

If you're a Gentile, there are no covenants that apply to you.

New Covenant does - as we see in Hebrews 8:6-12
And Old Covenant moral law applies to all the world -- as we see in Romans 3:19-20

I believe the good news revealed in the NT is the Kingdom of God is with us, near and among us; us being Israel, not the current nation of Israel but the descendants of Israel, and not all but the few who are called and chosen along with as many gentiles who are folded into Israel. What God expected of Israel of old He still requires of Israel to day.

New Covenant in "Old Testament" - reads like this

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Food for thought. Unchanged in the New Testament.


32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

Jesus is the one speaking there - according to Hebrews 8

33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

 

[BobRyan]

Saved vs the lost
New covenant saved -- vs -- Old Covenant lost
Spirit lead -- vs -- carnal sinful-nature-lead

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Thus it is "still a sin" even for NT NC Christians to "take God's name in vain"

Unless one is born again of the Spirit they cannot see (or understand) the Kingdom of God. All they know is the ministry of death.

 

[ac28]

I guess you missed the part in Heb 8 where the NC is given to the House of Israel and the House of Judah. I see nothing there that says it's for Gentiles. When the Bible is silent, we should be silent. Assumptions are one of Biblical truth's greatest enemies.

Rom 3 is explaining to Gentiles about Israel, vs 1. Nowhere does it say anything about Gentiles keeping the law, moral or otherwise. More assumptions. This moral law thing is something you've added to the scriptures. Of course, as Christians, we should try to live a moral life, but nowhere does it say that we MUST keep the 10 commandments or that we would lose out salvation if we went to church on Sunday, like some SDAs have conjured up out of thin air.

Since I am a Gentile, I would obey this verse below, written by Paul, the only apostle to us Gentiles, who, therefore, is the LAST WORD, when it comes to what we Gentiles should and shouldn't do, rather than listen to the 10 commandments, given ONLY to Israel, as is EVERYTHING in the Old Testament.

Sabbath rules for Gentiles are 100% man-made, unless you can find a verse that specially says that Gentiles must keep any sabbath, whether Saturday, Sunday, or Tuesdays at 11:17. I do realize that Israel's sabbath is on their 7th day, Saturday. However, since there is no Israel today, in God's eyes, who cares when their sabbath was, except for historical purposes.

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[1stcenturylady]

Saved vs the lost
New covenant saved -- vs -- Old Covenant lost
Spirit lead -- vs -- carnal sinful-nature-lead

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Thus it is "still a sin" even for NT NC Christians to "take God's name in vain"

You MUST be born again to understand.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Saved vs the lost
New covenant saved -- vs -- Old Covenant lost
Spirit lead -- vs -- carnal sinful-nature-lead

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Thus it is "still a sin" even for NT NC Christians to "take God's name in vain"

Who takes God's name in vain that walks in the Spirit? That's the point. The New Covenant has to do with the SPIRIT not the LAW!!! In fact, the law of the Spirit has FREED me from the law of sin and death which are the 10 Commandments. If you no longer have a sin nature because you are filled with the Spirit, you bear the fruit of the Spirit. If you don't sin, you are not in need of a law telling you not to do something you have no desire to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are like someone preaching the speed limit to those without a car. Dah! When are you going to understand. Or can't you, as this is spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2

 

[ac28]

You MUST be born again to understand.

I know you think you're born again because you've probably been listening to a denominational preacher. With no exaggeration, about half of what all of those guys preach is not for us Gentiles, but only for Jews. Born again is one of those things. Unless you're a law-abiding, animal-sacrificing, Israelite who wants to enter the earthly, Jewish Kingdom of Heaven, ruled by Christ, who will then be located in Heaven, being born again is something you can't achieve. Also, since there is no Israel, today, in God's eyes, no one on the planet born after 70AD has ever been born again

 

[1stcenturylady]

I know you think you're born again because you've probably been listening to a denominational preacher. With no exaggeration, about half of what all of those guys preach is not for us Gentiles, but only for Jews. Born again is one of those things. Unless you're a law-abiding, animal-sacrificing, Israelite who wants to enter the earthly, Jewish Kingdom of Heaven, ruled by Christ, who will then be located in Heaven, being born again is something you can't achieve. Also, since there is no Israel, today, in God's eyes, no one on the planet born after 70AD has ever been born again

I'm not denominationalized. However when I was physically filled to overflowing with the Holy Spirit, and all desire to sin was instantly gone, and the word of God became understandable with no contradictions, I was BORN AGAIN.

Being a preterist you probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[ac28]

Who takes God's name in vain that walks in the Spirit? That's the point. The New Covenant has to do with the SPIRIT not the LAW!!! In fact, the law of the Spirit has FREED me from the law of sin and death which are the 10 Commandments. If you no longer have a sin nature because you are filled with the Spirit, you bear the fruit of the Spirit. If you don't sin, you are not in need of a law telling you not to do something you have no desire to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are like someone preaching the speed limit to those without a car. Dah! When are you going to understand. Or can't you, as this is spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2

No one in history has ever been under the New Covenant. If you haven't had those gifts like in Ac 2 or if you're a Jew that's been able to keep the law easier, you haven't been affected by the New Covenant. According to Jeremiah and the Hebrew book of Hebrews, it's for Israel and it won't start until "after those days.'