GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

Bob S

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No one is promoting the OLD Covenant over the NEW Bob. However if you do not understand the OLD Covenant how can you understand the NEW Covenant?
Oh yes you are. What makes you believe I don't understand the old covenant? All that is is a put down. I would be ashamed if I told someone that. I know that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments from the old covenant were transient, temporary and done away. Why do you keep denying the Word??

The Scribes were a bunch of pompous men that thought they had all the answers. They thought they were so righteous that they could go around judging others and probably telling them that they do not understand the covenant that God gave them. Actually, we know them as legalists. There are churches out there that are doing the same thing. If we do not meet their standards it is because we don't understand their way of thinking. One tells us we will not have eternal life if we use musical instruments in the church and if we belonging to any other church, another if we do not abide by Watchtower we are going to be lost and another tells us if we do not observe the Sinai Sabbath and pay the modified false tithe we will lose our eternal inheritance. All of them are thumping extra Biblical doctrines.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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What makes you believe I don't understand the old covenant? All that is is a put down. I would be ashamed if I told someone that. I know that Paul wrote that the 10 commandments from the old covenant were transient, temporary and done away.

Hi Bob, good question.

It is not a put down to share God's WORD with someone if they do not have a corect understanding of the scriptures. It is our duty of LOVE to correct and admonish and help all to have a closer walk with Jesus.

It is God's WORD that disagrees with your understanding of what the OLD COVENANT is.

To be specific, it is your understanding of what you think the SHADOW laws are in the OLD COVENANT and God's LAW which is eternal which effects your whole understanding of both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS.

If you do not KNOW what the OLD Covenant is then how can you know what the NEW Covenant is because the NEW TESTAMENT builds on a correct understanding of the OLD Testament scriptures. This effects nearly every topic of the bible.

The OLD Testament is the foundation of the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures. If you build your house on sand then great will be the fall of it.

The bible in the days of Jesus and the Apostles was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. The NEW TESTAMENT scriptures come from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. Together these are God's two great witnesses.

You mix up the SHADOWS laws pointing to Jesus from the MOSIAC BOOK of the COVENANT with God's LAW (10 Commandments) which are eternal and the standard of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS in the OLD and NEW Covenants as well as the JUDGEMENT to come.

You BELIEVE God's LAW is ABOLISHED yet God's LAW is the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS are.

If God's LAW is ABOLSIHED then there is NO KNOWLEDGE of SIN;

If there is NO KNOWEDGE of SIN then NO ONE knows they are SINNERS. IF NO ONE KNOWS they are SINNERS then they have NO NEED of a SAVIOUR;

If you have NO NEED of a SAVIOUR then you have NO SALVATION because you are still in your SINS. If you are still in your SINS and have NO NEED of a SAVIOUR then you are LOST because you are STILL in your SINS. This is the conclusion of the belief you are teaching if you believe God's LAW (10 Commandments) are abolished.

The facts are;

God's WORD teaches that Jesus and all the Apostles taught OBEDIENCE to all of God's Commandments through faith (in God's WORD) that works by LOVE (God's Spirit) as we ABIDE in Christ. We walk as he walked because of LOVE as we ABIDE in him (the WORD) by FAITH and LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in those who BELIEVE and is why Jesus says; If you LOVE me keep my commandments.

This is the NEW COVENENT which is the fulfilling of the OLD COVENANT SHADOWS that point to Chirst who says if the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed.

..................

These are the scriptures showing the SHADOW laws and the ETERNAL laws that together make of the OLD COVENANT and their relationship to the NEW that show why your understanding of the OLD Covenant is not correct and which laws are SHADOWS and abolished and which are eternal..

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 1, CLICK ME (linked)

TOO MANY SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 2, CLICK ME (linked)

Take some time to read them it will be a blessing to you. Hope this helps.

..................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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Bob S

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Hi Bob, good question.

It is not a put down to share God's WORD with someone if they do not have a corect understanding of the scriptures. It is our duty of LOVE to correct and admonish and help all to have a closer walk with Jesus.
In the beginning that is what I tried to do. I tried to set you straight concerning Col 2. You insisted I study your very long post on the subject of shadows. I agreed to do that if first you would tell me what 2Cor 3:6-11 means. All you have done is skirt the request finally telling me that transient means transfer. At that point I knew you would never admit to what those verses really mean. I will never submit myself to read your false theory that Feast days, New moons and the Sabbath are not shadows. You first have to agree that Paul wrote exactly what he meant in 2Cor3 and that is the 10 commandments were transient, temporary and done away. When you come to the realization that what Paul wrote is true then your theory falls apart and there is no need for me to study what is not true.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In the beginning that is what I tried to do. I tried to set you straight concerning Col 2. You insisted I study your very long post on the subject of shadows. I agreed to do that if first you would tell me what 2Cor 3:6-11 means. All you have done is skirt the request finally telling me that transient means transfer. At that point I knew you would never admit to what those verses really mean. I will never submit myself to read your false theory that Feast days, New moons and the Sabbath are not shadows. You first have to agree that Paul wrote exactly what he meant in 2Cor3 and that is the 10 commandments were transient, temporary and done away. When you come to the realization that what Paul wrote is true then your theory falls apart and there is no need for me to study what is not true.

This is the problem I think Bob, you will not read the scriptures that show you why you do not have a correct understanind of God's WORD. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is?

Jesus says to us if your foundation is sifting sand how will your house stand? Why do I quote this scripture? You are ignoring the foundation of the OLD testament scriptures that are the foundation of the NEW that the NEW COVENANT is built on neither will you read the scripture to see why I say what I say to you. This is your decision I do not judge you. It is God's WORD and between you and God. Maybe we can agree to disagree and remain friends?

..................

These are the scriptures showing the SHADOW laws and the ETERNAL laws that together make of the OLD COVENANT and their relationship to the NEW that show why your understanding of the OLD Covenant is not correct and which laws are SHADOWS and abolished and which are eternal..

SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 1, CLICK ME (linked)

TOO MANY SCRIPTURE SUPPORT 2, CLICK ME (linked)

Take some time to read them it will be a blessing to you. Hope this helps.

..................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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Cribstyl

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So the fact that Jesus said the Sabbath was made for mankind means nothing to you... I hope your Acts 15 saves you... I'll follow what Jesus said.
It means that someone is adding to the scriptures. Tell us what bible version translates "anthropos" as "mankind"?
Jesus said: Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath? The whole truth makes it clear that Sabbath did not predate man or it could be said that man was made for Sabbath. Jesus makes it clear that Sabbath was made to benefit a person rather than be a burden to man.
 
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Bob S

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This is the problem I think Bob, you will not read the scriptures that show you why you do not have a correct understanind of God's WORD. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is?
If you do not have the proper understanding of Paul's words in 2Cor3:7-11 then how can you possibly build a foundation of understanding of the new covenant? I am sorry you have put your faith in Ellen White instead of Paul. Of course you are going to ignore plain truths from scripture in favor of her writings. Until I woke up I had the same problem you are experiencing. You keep telling me that I don't have any understanding of the old covenant rather than showing me where I am wrong one time. You won't even admit not knowing what transient means. You will not admit that the 10 commandments were temporary laws. Temporary because the covenant which the 10 were in was broken and no longer exists. You will not admit that it is not the 10 commandments that is written in the heart and there is positively no evidence that people are pricked to want to seek worship on a special day.

You will not admit that living in Australia you are not even worshipping on the correct day that Israel kept because man introduced the IDL and instead of the Sabbath starting at Sinai like it did when God gave it to Israel, it now starts out in the pacific Ocean. Your part of the World should be towards the tail end of the 48 hour cycle of your supposed Holy day instead of starting it. You wouldn't entertain my post that pointed that out. Instead you used your patent usual "that is not true Bob." You, my friend, are not willing to entertain anything I write.

Jesus says to us if your foundation is sifting sand how will your house stand? Why do I quote this scripture? You are ignoring the foundation of the OLD testament scriptures that are the foundation of the NEW that the NEW COVENANT is built on neither will you read the scripture to see why I say what I say to you. This is your decision I do not judge you. It is God's WORD and between you and God. Maybe we can agree to disagree and remain friends?
Since accepting Jesus and His will for my life I have no animosity to anyone. Loving my fellow man is what His will for me is all about. That does not mean that I have to be a milktoast and not stand up for truth. The Lord led me out of Adventism into the Light. I have been where you are now and all I can write is I will be here spreading the good new of salvation without the works of the old covenant to all who are in the dark. I pray you will come to know the good news too.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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If you do not have the proper understanding of Paul's words in 2Cor3:7-11 then how can you possibly build a foundation of understanding of the new covenant? I am sorry you have put your faith in Ellen White instead of Paul. Of course you are going to ignore plain truths from scripture in favor of her writings. Until I woke up I had the same problem you are experiencing. You keep telling me that I don't have any understanding of the old covenant rather than showing me where I am wrong one time. You won't even admit not knowing what transient means. You will not admit that the 10 commandments were temporary laws. Temporary because the covenant which the 10 were in was broken and no longer exists. You will not admit that it is not the 10 commandments that is written in the heart and there is positively no evidence that people are pricked to want to seek worship on a special day.

You will not admit that living in Australia you are not even worshipping on the correct day that Israel kept because man introduced the IDL and instead of the Sabbath starting at Sinai like it did when God gave it to Israel, it now starts out in the pacific Ocean. Your part of the World should be towards the tail end of the 48 hour cycle of your supposed Holy day instead of starting it. You wouldn't entertain my post that pointed that out. Instead you used your patent usual "that is not true Bob." You, my friend, are not willing to entertain anything I write.

Since accepting Jesus and His will for my life I have no animosity to anyone. Loving my fellow man is what His will for me is all about. That does not mean that I have to be a milktoast and not stand up for truth. The Lord led me out of Adventism into the Light. I have been where you are now and all I can write is I will be here spreading the good new of salvation without the works of the old covenant to all who are in the dark. I pray you will come to know the good news too.

Hello Bob nice to see you again:),

All I see in your post again, is your words and opinions over God's WORD. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE another. Do you have anything new to share from God's WORD? You are free to believe as you wish. Your salvation is between you and God. It is God's WORD that will judge us all in the last days (John 12:47-48)

If the foundation of the NEW Testament is the OLD Testament scriptures then how can you build your foundation if you do not have one? How can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you do not KNOW what the OLD COVENANT is and mix up the SHADOWS pointing and fulfilled in Christ with those that are ETERNAL and the KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and the Judgement to come?

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

..................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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Bob S

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Hello Bob nice to see you again:),

All I see in your post again, is your words and opinions over God's WORD. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE another. Do you have anything new to share from God's WORD? You are free to believe as you wish. Your salvation is between you and God. It is God's WORD that will judge us all in the last days (John 12:47-48)
You have to be blind not to see. You use the same old stuff each time instead of addressing my comments. I use scripture where needed and I used scripture in my last post to you. 2Cor 3:7-11 is scripture, scripture you refuse to entertain truthfully.

If the foundation of the NEW Testament is the OLD Testament scriptures then how can you build your foundation if you do not have one? How can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you do not KNOW what the OLD COVENANT is and mix up the SHADOWS pointing and fulfilled in Christ with those that are ETERNAL and the KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and the Judgement to come?
My "foundation" is Jesus Christ, not yours or your churches cracked foundation of misguided beliefs.

Why won't you address the following and tell me it is "not true Bob"?

"You will not admit that living in Australia you are not even worshipping on the correct day that Israel kept because man introduced the IDL and instead of the Sabbath starting at Sinai like it did when God gave it to Israel, it now starts out in the pacific Ocean. Your part of the World should be towards the tail end of the 48 hour cycle of your supposed Holy day instead of starting it. You wouldn't entertain my post that pointed that out. Instead you used your patent usual "that is not true Bob." You, my friend, are not willing to entertain anything I write."
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Ok Bob, you are free to believe what you choose. For me though ONLY God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

..................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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1stcenturylady

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@EastCoastRemnant , @LoveGodsWord and @BobRyan

How do you translate these verses. And only this passage. Please don't sidestep the question with another cut and paste unless it is about this passage, and this passage only.


Read Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
 
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BobRyan

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How do you translate these verses. And only this passage.

1. I am not a Bible translator.
2. I don't believe in "eisegesis" - so the idea of "deleting context" and "deleting the exegetical setting" for a given text - is not something I am used to doing.

And now we begin -

Read Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

In Romans 3:19-21 Paul already defined his use of the phrase "Under the Law"
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul makes the case that the Law is still binding
And it defines what sin is.
And it condemns all mankind - showing that all need salvation... need the Gospel for "All have sinned" Rom 3:23

The church in Galatia is a gentile church - not a Jewish one.
And why is Paul accusing a gentile church of this?
Why does Paul think the gentiles of Galatia want to be "under the Law"?

Here Paul is expanding on what He thinks of certain Gentiles in Galatia

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Back to Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why does Paul think the gentiles in Galatia are guilty of this?

ANSWER:
Gal 5
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Ah-hah -- is that the great sin of the gentiles in Galatia??

Nope. Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised

Acts 16
a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.


Gal 5 - whether you are circumcised or not - does not matter.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping of the commandments of God.

Repeatedly Paul teaches that while it is true that it does not matter if one is circumcised or not - yet when the gentiles in Galatia do it -- they are "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". Gal 5:4

Why?

Because they are doing it as a "sign" that they wish to be "justified by law" Gal 5:4

Where did the GENTILES in Galatia get that idea if not from Paul?

Answer: a certain small contingent of Christian Jews from Judea
Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”​

They simply made that idea up -- no OT or NT scripture required it. The Christian gentiles in Galatia were giving in to Jewish practice of "making stuff up" and setting their own tradition = the Bible.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.

  • Paul now tells the reader he is switching over from real-life-literal to "symbolic".
  • In real life it is the children of Isaac son of Sarah that gather at Sinai - not the children Ishmael son of Hagar.

So this is not Paul claiming that Moses and Elijah who stand "with Christ" in Matthew 17 - in glory-- are standing in opposition to Christ, opposition to Grace, opposition to the Gospel.

Gal 4
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

Paul argues that in rejecting the Messiah -- The non-Christian Jews (as well as Christian Jews that choose to "make stuff up" place tradition above the Bible) -- and by symbol - Jerusalem as their capital - stand in opposition to the Gospel - as a counterfeit to it - just as Hagar and Ishmael represented a counterfeit to the promise - that was to come through Sarah's son Isaac.


Gal 4
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem above "is mother of us all" - of both Christian gentiles and Christian Jews. Our "heritage" our "national and family identity" is united in the "Jerusalem above" which was in heaven at the time of Sinai and still is to this very day.

Paul is taking away the "heritage problem" that he brings up in Gal 4

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

That was the gentile pagan "heritage" and that is apparently what the Christian Jews promoting circumcision of gentiles were selling them - a "deal" for getting rid of their pagan heritage by identifying with literal Jews or by engaging in other forms of syncretism

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.


Gal 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now

Indeed - Christians were being persecuted by non-Christian Jews from Judea

<Did "somebody" watch a debate between Steve Gregg and Doug Batchelor? - is that what this is about?>
 
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1stcenturylady

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1. I am not a Bible translator.
2. I don't believe in "eisegesis" - so the idea of "deleting context" and "deleting the exegetical setting" for a given text - is not something I am used to doing.

And now we begin -

Read Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

In Romans 3:19-21 Paul already defined his use of the phrase "Under the Law"
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul makes the case that the Law is still binding
And it defines what sin is.
And it condemns all mankind - showing that all need salvation... need the Gospel for "All have sinned" Rom 3:23

The church in Galatia is a gentile church - not a Jewish one.
And why is Paul accusing a gentile church of this?
Why does Paul think the gentiles of Galatia want to be "under the Law"?

Here Paul is expanding on what He thinks of certain Gentiles in Galatia

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Back to Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why does Paul think the gentiles in Galatia are guilty of this?

ANSWER:
Gal 5
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Ah-hah -- is that the great sin of the gentiles in Galatia??

Nope. Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised

Acts 16
a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.


Gal 5 - whether you are circumcised or not - does not matter.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping of the commandments of God.

Repeatedly Paul teaches that while it is true that it does not matter if one is circumcised or not - yet when the gentiles in Galatia do it -- they are "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". Gal 5:4

Why?

Because they are doing it as a "sign" that they wish to be "justified by law" Gal 5:4

Where did the GENTILES in Galatia get that idea if not from Paul?

Answer: a certain small contingent of Christian Jews from Judea
Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”​

They simply made that idea up -- no OT or NT scripture required it. The Christian gentiles in Galatia were giving in to Jewish practice of "making stuff up" and setting their own tradition = the Bible.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.

  • Paul now tells the reader he is switching over from real-life-literal to "symbolic".
  • In real life it is the children of Isaac son of Sarah that gather at Sinai - not the children Ishmael son of Hagar.

So this is not Paul claiming that Moses and Elijah who stand "with Christ" in Matthew 17 - in glory-- are standing in opposition to Christ, opposition to Grace, opposition to the Gospel.

Gal 4
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

Paul argues that in rejecting the Messiah -- The non-Christian Jews (as well as Christian Jews that choose to "make stuff up" place tradition above the Bible) -- and by symbol - Jerusalem as their capital - stand in opposition to the Gospel - as a counterfeit to it - just as Hagar and Ishmael represented a counterfeit to the promise - that was to come through Sarah's son Isaac.


Gal 4
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem above "is mother of us all" - of both Christian gentiles and Christian Jews. Our "heritage" our "national and family identity" is united in the "Jerusalem above" which was in heaven at the time of Sinai and still is to this very day.

Paul is taking away the "heritage problem" that he brings up in Gal 4

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

That was the gentile pagan "heritage" and that is apparently what the Christian Jews promoting circumcision of gentiles were selling them - a "deal" for getting rid of their pagan heritage by identifying with literal Jews or by engaging in other forms of syncretism

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.


Gal 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now

Indeed - Christians were being persecuted by non-Christian Jews from Judea

<Did "somebody" watch a debate between Steve Gregg and Doug Batchelor? - is that what this is about?>

I don't know who Steve Gregg and Doug Batchelor are, so no that is not the reason.

I appreciate that you did not cut and paste this from some post I've already seen. Thank you. You and LoveGodsWord both do yourselves a disservice adding a couple lines to a huge cut and paste post we've seen a hundred times. Looking for a needle in a haystack (that we've already seen and answered, with no response to what we've said, just a repost) is not going to be read. This is why I had to force the issue. And finally I see something new from you. EastCoastRemant doesn't have that problem. They can write a new post each time, and we can discuss. It is evident that they have actually read our post. I would like to be able to do the same with you and my Aussie friend.

@EastCoastRemnant and @LoveGodsWord do you have anything to add?

Question to @BobRyan. What covenant was given by God on Mt. Sinai? Whatever it was represented Ishmael and was to be "cast out"
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You and LoveGodsWord both do yourselves a disservice adding a couple lines to a huge cut and paste post we've seen a hundred times. Looking for a needle in a haystack (that we've already seen and answered, with no response to what we've said, just a repost) is not going to be read. This is why I had to force the issue. And finally I see something new from you. EastCoastRemant doesn't have that problem. They can write a new post each time, and we can discuss. It is evident that they have actually read our post. I would like to be able to do the same with you and my Aussie friend.

@EastCoastRemnant and @LoveGodsWord do you have anything to add?

Question to @BobRyan. What covenant was given by God on Mt. Sinai? Whatever it was represented Ishmael and was to be "cast out"

Hi 1stcenturylady,

Indeed there is much scruipture to share with you but you do not believe it when it is posted. I think you do yourself a greater disservice by ignoring the scritpures sent to you and ignoring the questions asked of you as a help to the discussion. You expect others to answer your questions on demand or try and change the topic of discussion when you are confronted with too many scriptures that disagree with you or questions you are not able to answer.

NO you have not answered anything sent to you and NO you have not answered any questions posted to you. This is your disservice.

For your information some spend a lot of time in bible study and share the scriptures with you as a help. You claim cut and paste but I only cut and paste Scripture that is relevant to the topic of discussion spent in hours of personal time with God. Sometimes, I add a Sabbath signature at the end of my post in relation to God's 4th Commandment and will continue to do so as God leads after I answer a post or challenge a post that is being responded to. You do not need to read this part of the post as it is lined off always at the end as a signature.

You choose to ignore the scriptures and the questions sent to you that are posted. I do not judge you this is your decision to do so. You can make a joke about it saying cut and paste but it is God's WORD that you are ignoring and it is God's WORD that is sent to help all that shall be our judge in the last days.

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

Ignoring the WORD of God in order to follow the tradtions and teachings of men that break the commandments of God will keep all who knowingly do so out of God's KINGDOM.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't know who Steve Gregg and Doug Batchelor are, so no that is not the reason.

I appreciate that you did not cut and paste this from some post I've already seen. Thank you. You and LoveGodsWord both do yourselves a disservice adding a couple lines to a huge cut and paste post we've seen a hundred times.

Sadly for that suggestion, the myth that an irrefutable point -- totally unanswerable by the opposing view - can be "deleted" simply by noting it was "seen and skimmed past before" -- is a flawed "solution" and apparently everyone but the one posting that idea - can see it clearly.

The fact that there has been no answer for my irrefutable texts and that the same old already-debunked-by-it idea was just posted begging once again for the texts to come back - is reason enough to re-post it -- even though you can get some "please don't post that irrefutable point again it was already thought-deleted in wishful-thinking by having been seen and skimmed past"

(And the other reason for doing it is to show the conversation context so short meaningless snip post after snip-post having no interest or context or meaning to outside readers - is avoided entirely)

Looking for a needle in a haystack (that we've already seen and answered, with no response to what we've said, just a repost)

if that were even true - then the much-imagined wonderful "answer" would be joyfully re-posted with a "thank you for the opportunity to get this out in current post again" added.

Nothing of the sort will surface when the 'answer' turns out to be "less than" and the "complaint" far more interesting than the whimper of a response that was given to the actual details posted in my initial irrefutable-texts post.

We all knew this already -- obviously -- but it is fund unmask the "game" whenever it comes up - all the same.
 
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BobRyan

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Question to @BobRyan. What covenant was given by God on Mt. Sinai? Whatever it was represented Ishmael and was to be "cast out"

hint: the "old covenant" was given in fact to Adam as "Obey and Live"
Paul says the "Gospel was preached to THEM (Israel at Sinai) - just as it was to US also " Heb 4:1

Yet Sinai was not an "individual" covenant (and the New Covenant is) . In other words it is not as though there were 2 million sinless "individuals" at Sinai -- until they started worshiping the golden calf.

Thus it is the NEW Covenant according to Paul - the Gospel that was being given all along - but at Sinai it was given with visual aids and illustrations.

The national-covenant at Sinai is used as a "symbol" of the Old Covenant made with Adam "obey and live" because at the level of 'a nation' that is how it was framed. Only national apostasy / rebellion -- would break it. An individual who coveted on that day or any other -- would not break that covenant.

The SAME moral Law is in both the Old and and NEW Covenant as the Bible shows and as even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson -- freely demonstrate that they too can see this glaringly obvious Bible detail.

Question for 1stcenturylady - what part of this did you not know "really"?? I don't think that this particular post is "news" to very many people -- not even
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith

And I think you have seen something from me like it from me before.
 
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Hi Bob, good question.

It is not a put down to share God's WORD with someone if they do not have a corect understanding of the scriptures. It is our duty of LOVE to correct and admonish and help all to have a closer walk with Jesus.
That's not what you're doing. You preach a relationship with the law, not Jesus.
 
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1. I am not a Bible translator.
2. I don't believe in "eisegesis" - so the idea of "deleting context" and "deleting the exegetical setting" for a given text - is not something I am used to doing.

And now we begin -

Read Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

In Romans 3:19-21 Paul already defined his use of the phrase "Under the Law"
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul makes the case that the Law is still binding
And it defines what sin is.
And it condemns all mankind - showing that all need salvation... need the Gospel for "All have sinned" Rom 3:23

The church in Galatia is a gentile church - not a Jewish one.
And why is Paul accusing a gentile church of this?
Why does Paul think the gentiles of Galatia want to be "under the Law"?

Here Paul is expanding on what He thinks of certain Gentiles in Galatia

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Back to Romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why does Paul think the gentiles in Galatia are guilty of this?

ANSWER:
Gal 5
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Ah-hah -- is that the great sin of the gentiles in Galatia??

Nope. Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised

Acts 16
a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.


Gal 5 - whether you are circumcised or not - does not matter.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping of the commandments of God.

Repeatedly Paul teaches that while it is true that it does not matter if one is circumcised or not - yet when the gentiles in Galatia do it -- they are "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". Gal 5:4

Why?

Because they are doing it as a "sign" that they wish to be "justified by law" Gal 5:4

Where did the GENTILES in Galatia get that idea if not from Paul?

Answer: a certain small contingent of Christian Jews from Judea
Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”​

They simply made that idea up -- no OT or NT scripture required it. The Christian gentiles in Galatia were giving in to Jewish practice of "making stuff up" and setting their own tradition = the Bible.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic.

  • Paul now tells the reader he is switching over from real-life-literal to "symbolic".
  • In real life it is the children of Isaac son of Sarah that gather at Sinai - not the children Ishmael son of Hagar.

So this is not Paul claiming that Moses and Elijah who stand "with Christ" in Matthew 17 - in glory-- are standing in opposition to Christ, opposition to Grace, opposition to the Gospel.

Gal 4
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

Paul argues that in rejecting the Messiah -- The non-Christian Jews (as well as Christian Jews that choose to "make stuff up" place tradition above the Bible) -- and by symbol - Jerusalem as their capital - stand in opposition to the Gospel - as a counterfeit to it - just as Hagar and Ishmael represented a counterfeit to the promise - that was to come through Sarah's son Isaac.


Gal 4
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Jerusalem above "is mother of us all" - of both Christian gentiles and Christian Jews. Our "heritage" our "national and family identity" is united in the "Jerusalem above" which was in heaven at the time of Sinai and still is to this very day.

Paul is taking away the "heritage problem" that he brings up in Gal 4

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

That was the gentile pagan "heritage" and that is apparently what the Christian Jews promoting circumcision of gentiles were selling them - a "deal" for getting rid of their pagan heritage by identifying with literal Jews or by engaging in other forms of syncretism

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.


Gal 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now

Indeed - Christians were being persecuted by non-Christian Jews from Judea

<Did "somebody" watch a debate between Steve Gregg and Doug Batchelor? - is that what this is about?>

Nice post Bob, enjoyed reading this.

To add another dimension to this as well. BONDAGE being referred to here is SIN as ties in nicely with ROMANS 3:19-20 and also JOHN 8:31-36 and not God's LAW (10 Commandments) as some believe.

As it is also written in..

JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews who believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; [32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We are Abraham's descendants, and were never in BONDAGE to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, WHOSOEVER COMMITS SIN IS A SERVANT OF SIN. [35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever. [36], IF THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE <from SIN> YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED.

links to...

ROMANS 6:15-23 [15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] KNOW YE NOT, THAT TO WHOM YOU YEILD YOUSELVES SEVANTS TO OBEY; WHETHER OF SIN UNTO DEATH, OR OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS? [17] But God be thanked, that YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN (Bondage), but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] BEING THEN MADE FREE FROM SIN, YOU BECAME THE SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [20] FOR WHEN YOU WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN, YOU WERE FREE FROM RIGHTEOUSNESS. [21], What fruit had you then in those things of which you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. [22], BUT NOW BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, you have YOUR FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS ,AND EVERLASTING LIFE. [23], For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

.................

BONDAGE= SIN
and being a servant to SIN (we cannot serve two masters)
PROMISE = FREEDOM FROM SIN

.................

links also to Gal 4:21-31...

GALATIANS 4:21-31
[21], Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? [22], For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. [23], But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. [24], WHICH THINGS ARE AN ALLEGORY: FOR THESE ARE THE TWO COVENANTS; THE ONE FROM MOUNT SINAI, WHICH BRINGS FORTH TO BONDAGE WHICH IS HAGAR. [25], For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26], But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. [27], For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband. [28], Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. [29], But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. [30], Nevertheless what says the scripture? Cast out the BONDWOMEN AND HER SON (OLD COVENANT ): for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.

HAGAR
= OLD COVENANT (Exodus)
SARAH = NEW COVENANT PROMISE (Jer 31:31-33; Heb 8:10-12)

.................

links to Rom 3:19-20...

ROMANS 3:19-20 [19], Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are UNDER THE LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

back to John 8...

[34], Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, WHOSOEVER COMMITS SIN IS A SERVANT OF SIN. [35], And the servant abides not in the house forever: but the Son abides ever. [36], IF THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE <from SIN> YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED.

NEW COVENANT PROMISE IS FREEDOM FROM SIN BY WALLKING IN GOD'S SPIRIT.

.................

CONCLUSION: HAGAR and her son represent the OLD COVENANT and those who are in BONDAGE to SIN. God's LAW gives a KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is.

SARAH represents the NEW COVENANT and freewomen and those who have found forgiveness through FAITH in the BLOOD of CHRIST.

Continuing in God's WORD by FAITH we have Christs promise of freedom from SIN to LOVE as he has first LOVED us. LOVE is the fulfilling of the LAW in those who BELIEVE and walk in his SPIRIT.

The problem is many do not know what the OLD COVENANT is and mix up the SHADOW laws with those which are eternal and give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN that lead us to the Savior and are the standard in the OLD and NEW COVENANTS and the Judgement to come.
 
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This is the problem I think Bob, you will not read the scriptures that show you why you do not have a correct understanind of God's WORD. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is?
How many years did Bob S spend in your church? I don't understand how you can say he doesn't understand what the OC is.
Jesus says to us if your foundation is sifting sand how will your house stand? Why do I quote this scripture? You are ignoring the foundation of the OLD testament scriptures that are the foundation of the NEW that the NEW COVENANT is built on neither will you read the scripture to see why I say what I say to you. This is your decision I do not judge you. It is God's WORD and between you and God. Maybe we can agree to disagree and remain friends?
If your house is built on the law it will be destroyed. If your house is built on Jesus it will never be destroyed.
 
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How many years did Bob S spend in your church? I don't understand how you can say he doesn't understand what the OC is.If your house is built on the law it will be destroyed. If your house is built on Jesus it will never be destroyed.

Hello listed,

What makes up the OLD COVENANT in your view?
 
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Hello Bob nice to see you again:),

All I see in your post again, is your words and opinions over God's WORD. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE him who calls us in LOVE to LOVE another. Do you have anything new to share from God's WORD? You are free to believe as you wish. Your salvation is between you and God. It is God's WORD that will judge us all in the last days (John 12:47-48)
Anything that doesn't agree with you is opinion, that includes the Bible.
 
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